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50mph road legal no registration electric bicycle??

Old 05-22-11, 09:20 PM
  #1  
nerys
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50mph road legal no registration electric bicycle??

OK. I have a legal problem. I want to build an electric assist bicycle but I do not want to ask "permission" of the state and I do not want to "give up" ownership of my vehicle. (when you "title" a vehicle you really are essentially giving up full ownership of the vehicle to the state) Don't want to get into that too much as it gets a wee close to "political" but you get the idea and now understand partially why I want to do the following. Plus it would be fun.

so for fun intellectually politically and just for the heck of it here is what I want to do.

I want to make an aeroshell trike that is PURE pedal powered that I can "sustain" 45-50mph on smooth level ground. I am pretty confident my fat butt has the needed power to do this (I can sustain 35mph for some 60-90 seconds even longer and thats with bad gearing (feet whizzing like crazy) and bad aero I have hit 60mph downhill) geared right and with an aeroshell I think 50mph is doable sustained (say 4-5 miles at a shot)

the problem is there is no way I have the power to "ACCELERATE" from 0 to 50mph and then sustain 50mph nor handle any inclines.

SO I want to add an assist with an electric drivetrain to help me to accelerate at normal auto rates (ie not flip off the people behind me) and to give me a boost when I encounter an incline or just need a slight break etc..)

problem is the law says its a motor vehicle if the e-drive can take me over 20 or 25mph that means registration inspection insurance IE state permission and relinquishment of ownership to the state.. SO I am trying to find a way around this law. ie to work WITH the law and be legal.

here is my idea. I am wondering if this is viable legally (and physically :-)

I was planning to make a small trailer for my geo metro with a battery pack and an electric motor on it. the idea would be below 20-30mph (traffic parking lot etc..) I would power up the "pusher" trailer and once I get too fast for the e-drive I would start the car's engine and continue on gas power. IE a poor mans simply manual "hybrid" and a much smaller battery pack would be needed :-)

and then the idea hit me. what if I made this an ULTRA LIGHT trailer or something I could attach to my motorcycle (or my BICYCLE)

do it legal. register the trailer get tags for the trailer.

is that legal? can I attach this legal tagged registered trailer to a pedal bicycle and "be done with it" legally? ie would that satisfy the law since its the legally tagged trailer that is powered and its just "pushing" the bike?

it would not be permanently attached to the bicycle. it would come off as easily as any trailer would and I can and would also use this on my motorcycle to give it an eco boost etc..

Suggestions?
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Old 05-23-11, 12:46 AM
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Not a viable option for the bicycle..
Adding the powered (tagged) push trailer actually changes the definition of your bicycle (in most states).
(e.g. It's no longer a 2 or three wheeled bicycle). The trailer on the bicycle would cause it to become a "motor vehicle combination".
At that point, you would have to have the "entire vehicle" registered as whatever your state defines a 4 wheeled homemade vehicle. Which probably would not happen because the bicycle itself nor the push trailer would have a VIN.
Which your first question would be... what is a "push trailer" considered in your state.. And if it can be "tagged" and given a VIN.
I don't believe a push trailer capable of sustaining a 50mph+ speed would be safe, nor allowed on public roadways.

ESPECIALLY, if the person (not you) wanted to use the push trailer and didn't have a drivers or moped license.
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Old 05-23-11, 06:19 AM
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thank you for the feedback. Curious how you came to the conclusion? ie what makes the entire setup a "motor vehicle" if the trailer is not illegal on its own? (remember trying to work around the law legally here :-)

"what is a "push trailer" considered in your state" thats the kicker here. I can find NO definition or reference to a push trailer in the PA code. as a trailer I just register as home built and go through the inspection process.

the trailer would not sustain 50mph. it would be top heavy to do that (too much battery mass beyond "safe" limits of the brakes I would use) it would be for acceleration and "assistance" on inclines etc.. I would be mostly depending my legs for maintaining speed (if possible)

I project a total of under 5 miles range if I were to try and go all electric. ie I need to keep it light enough that the disc brakes on my "tow bike" can "over power" the motor on the trailer if things go south. too much mass in batteries means too much inertia too hard to stop. (I am not that crazy ie I don't want to DIE :-) hehe

I originally wanted to make a electric bike where pedaling AND driving it would do 50mph but if I stopped pedaling the E drive would only sustain 25mph (ie meeting the definitions of the law) but I lack the technical means to accomplish that feat.
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Old 05-23-11, 12:04 PM
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Originally Posted by nerys View Post
OK. I have a legal problem.
Then you should talk to a lawyer, not a bunch of cyclists.
when you "title" a vehicle you really are essentially giving up full ownership of the vehicle to the state
Um, what?

If you're suggesting that the state can take your titled vehicle at will for various reasons ... they can take your untitled vehicle (i.e. bicycle) for the same reasons, so I don't see the title as hurting you in that matter.
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Old 05-23-11, 12:16 PM
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yes. when you title a vehicle (at least in PA and NJ I assume same elsewhere) you have RELINQUISH ownership (MSO COO) to the state they then generate a title THEY KEEP and you only get a certificate of title.

in legal parlance this is like "fee simple title" (which is what you have on your home) where the crown (state) owns the property and you are no more than legal tenant (owner) at the will of the state.

The difference is a technical one. If you own a "desk" (allodial title) in your home they can not just "make up" a reason lawfully to come take that desk from you without cause. (or a car in your garagen same thing it only has to be registered to be in public or in "use" on public roadways)

can they? YES just as a thief can, can they legally? NO.

with your car (or your home) its different. legally they own it and can literally "make up" any reason they wish to take it such as say hey you did not pay these questionably legal parking tickets. your car is gone and sold before you can even get an injunction to fight it if you can figure out how to or afford too.

its a "moral" issue. I want to see if I can do it for the sake of seeing if I can do it. Can I effectively (effectively to me is on roads at 45-50mph) TRAVEL as is my birth given and constitutional right without permission of the state either directly or by proxy at least as much as possible since yes I realize technically bypassing with a "registered" trailer is by proxy. Its one thing to "buy" something and "technically" give up ownership to the state (what choice do we have really individually? none)

but its another to BUILD SOMETHING from scratch and then be told you must "give up" ownership to the state.

just really irks me. I really don't want this to migrate to a political discussion. that can ONLY end one way and its not good.

telling me to go see a lawyer is no help. would probably cost more than building the stinking bike :-)

if this issue is unwelcome here I understand.
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Old 05-23-11, 01:20 PM
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Originally Posted by nerys
I want to make an aeroshell trike that is PURE pedal powered that I can "sustain" 45-50mph on smooth level ground. I am pretty confident my fat butt has the needed power to do this (I can sustain 35mph for some 60-90 seconds even longer and thats with bad gearing (feet whizzing like crazy) and bad aero I have hit 60mph downhill) geared right and with an aeroshell I think 50mph is doable sustained (say 4-5 miles at a shot)
Google up "Human Powered Vehicles" and velomobiles. You'll find that sustaining 50 mph is no mean feet in itself. It's going to take a very expensive, very light, machine piloted by people who are very fit from years of training.

Second, a cycle that can reach speeds of 50 mph by means of a motor is considered a moped or motorcycle nation wide. It's going to have to be tagged as such.

https://www.aerorider.com/en/aerorider.html
^^^^
I think that was the production version of the vehicle you are dreaming about, btw.
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Old 05-23-11, 01:32 PM
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Originally Posted by nerys View Post
Suggestions?
Buy a motor scooter. The rest of your post sounds like the rantings of a madman.
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Old 05-23-11, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by nerys View Post
yes. when you title a vehicle (at least in PA and NJ I assume same elsewhere) you have RELINQUISH ownership (MSO COO) to the state they then generate a title THEY KEEP and you only get a certificate of title.

in legal parlance this is like "fee simple title" (which is what you have on your home) where the crown (state) owns the property and you are no more than legal tenant (owner) at the will of the state.
Wikipida's page on fee simple title disagrees with you. Now, perhaps you've found the wrong term, or perhaps wikipedia is wrong -- it wouldn't be the first time -- but what seems most likely to me is that you're either 1) simply wrong about who owns your titled vehicle (or house), or 2) you've decided that since they could take it (more on this in a bit) that it must be theirs to begin with.

The difference is a technical one. If you own a "desk" (allodial title) in your home they can not just "make up" a reason lawfully to come take that desk from you without cause. (or a car in your garagen same thing it only has to be registered to be in public or in "use" on public roadways)
Wikipedia suggests that you probably don't have a allodial title to your desk -- instead, it would be the fee simple title mentioned above.

In the US, they'll "make up a reason" to take your property, title or not. Typically this reason is that they say it was used in a crime or paid for with the proceeds of a crime (true or not, that would depend on the situation.) It's called asset forfeiture and it's highly unfair, but I don't see where not having a formal title is going to save you. (Yes, it's often used to take cars and houses, where one usually has a formal title ... but it's also used to take cash, where one usually doesn't.)

I'm not a lawyer and even I see serious flaws in your legal reasoning. Talking to a lawyer would be prudent before you make your 50 mph untitled motorcycle and get arrested riding it and get hit with fines and such that total several thousand dollars -- and if this lawyer is too expensive, well, you can take your risks if you want, but if it happens -- you may not get your motorcycle back until you pay the fines.
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Old 05-23-11, 02:43 PM
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let me help you achieve most of your goals much simplier and cheaper...by giving you a example of what others I know have done...

they purchased a 150 c.c gas scooter....then they put 50 CC stickers on it...now they have a vehicle that can do 50-60 mph...and they didnt tag it because most states do not currently require you to get tags/registration for a gas scooter 50 c.c or less...I have known several people who did this...and they never got pulled over by a police officer..and even if they did , a police officer isnt gonna usually be able to tell the difference between a 150 cc or 50 cc gas scooter...ecsepcially if you put 50c.c. stickers on the back fender and on the motor casing. Now, if you want to be riding on the highways and freeways doing 60 + mph...then you better not consider this route...the people I knew who did this , got away with it because 95% of their driving was on non freeways.

also, when they purchased the 150 c.c scooter new, they did not get a title with it..they got a CERTIFICATE OF ORGIN....which as you know, is not the same as a title, and therefore the state cannot legally confiscate your scooter the same way they could with a titled car/ motorcycle.

you can purchase brand new 150 c.c scooter of ebay for $799 delivered...and they come with the certificate of orgin.
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Old 05-23-11, 03:32 PM
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Hmm maybe we are speaking differing languages but the VERY FIRST paragraph of the article you linked too

"In English law, a fee simple (or fee simple absolute) is an estate in land, a form of freehold ownership....."

AND the very first line of the common law section BOTH agree with me

"In English common law, the Crown has radical title or the allodium of all land in England, meaning that it is the ultimate "owner" of all land. However, the Crown can grant ownership in an abstract entity—called an estate in land—which is what is owned, rather than the land it represents. The fee simple estate is also called "estate in fee simple" or "fee-simple title" and sometimes simply freehold in England and Wales. "

England IS after all the source or root or most of our laws.

that article 100% agree's with me. you don't own it. you are GRANTED ownership "proviledges" and they can be lawfully revoked even if you do nothing wrong.

Your comparison with asset forfeiture is not valid.

that is under the GUISE of lawful confiscation ie right or wrong it is done under the guise that YOU DID SOMETHING WRONG. IE its THEFT. no one questions they have the "power" to do that via corruption just like a criminal can.

with homes and cars you do not ACTUALLY have to have done something wrong.

in PA even a 50cc scooter would need to be tagged and registered to be used on the roadways and since most "can not" they are effectively illegal in PA. with few exceptions.

-----------------

I am tired of fighting on the internet. I am just tired of it. if this conversation is not welcome or is just going to result in arguing and bickering I will simply abandon it. You likely lack the means to change my mind on the political aspects so why try? I won't try to change your mind.

I know the law about motorized bicycles. THAT IS WHY I am trying to see if I can get around that law by motorizing a lawfully registered and tagged TRAILER instead.

so the Bike will have NO power. the TRAILER will have the power.

YEs I can purchase a 150cc scooter and I WILL as soon as I find one I can afford without cutting of a part of my body for payment :-)

but I still wish to ATTEMPT to make a 45-50mph vehicle LAWFULLY that requires no registration or titling of the actual vehicle itself EVEN IF I have a 150cc bike.

Last edited by nerys; 05-23-11 at 03:35 PM.
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Old 05-23-11, 04:03 PM
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Originally Posted by nerys View Post
I know the law about motorized bicycles. THAT IS WHY I am trying to see if I can get around that law by motorizing a lawfully registered and tagged TRAILER instead.
Again, if you're looking for loopholes in the law, I'd suggest talking to a local lawyer or attorney.

Asking for legal advice from people on the Internet who don't even know what state you're in (so they couldn't give the right advice even if they had it) for things that are likely to be state specific seems a poor place to start.

But hey, keep ranting about how your're tired of fighting on the Internet, about how your conversation isn't welcome. Pay a lawyer, and you may not have such problems ... but ask for free advice, and the advice you receive may be worth every penny you paid for it.

Last edited by dougmc; 05-23-11 at 04:08 PM.
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Old 05-23-11, 04:28 PM
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the laws certainyl vary from state to state and country to country, when it comes to bicycle laws / motorized bicycle laws..

for examp0le "

some states will mainly use a vehicle registration code that any vehicle that is powered by a motor and can do more then 20 mph on flat land, is classified as a vehicle that needs to be tagged/ licensed/ insured...

other states dont go by the speed of the vehicle, and only go by the piston displacement. Luckily I am in such a location...so the reality is, that since my bicycle is electric, I cannot recieve a ticket for it, if I dont have a tag for it, or registration or insurance. ..because it doesnt have a piston that drives the motor.

Any of us can go online to our states vehicle registration website and find the info concerning motorized bicycles...the codes listed at the website are the ones the police must use when it come to being able to ticket a person on a motorized bicycle.
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Old 05-23-11, 04:32 PM
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in other words, it seems that even though my electric bicycle can go 32 mph on flat land , the police could not legally ticket me for having a vehicle that can do 32 mph without a tag/registration because my electric bike does not have a piston displacement of 49 c.c or more. Now, they could ticket me if I break the law by casuing a accident , or not obeying traffic signals on my bicycle.

In other states , a officer may be able to give you a ticket on your electric bike, if they use radar and see you are doing more then 20 mph on flat land, and dont have the electric bicycle tagged, registered or insured.

each state is different.
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Old 05-26-11, 10:52 AM
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First of all, doing those kind of speeds on a busy street where you are likely to run into a cop, isn't advised on a bicycle. People who see you will not expect you to be going that fast. Cars will pull out in front of you.

My bike for example isn't exactly legal, but on busy streets I keep it to 20-25 mph. If a cop radars me doing 25, he isn't likely to nitpick, and the extra 5 mph can be explained by my pedaling (false pedaling lol). Now on back roads and neighborhood streets where there is little traffic, then I open her up and cruse at full speed. But I do so knowing that if a cop busts me, then I will have to pay the consequences.

Basically as vague as the laws concerning ebikes are, the speeds you are wanting to do, makes it pretty cut and dry. Yes you can build an ebike to do over 50 mph (a pusher wouldn't be the best method) but there really isn't any way you could call it legal. Just by having the pusher attached to your bike, makes it a part of the bike, therefore it would be illegal. The best you could hope for is an uniformed cop.

And as had been said, if you want solid legal advice , seek out an attorney. Consultations are usually under a hundred bucks.
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Old 05-26-11, 10:58 AM
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Don't know if these people can help:

https://www.bikeengines.com/index.htm
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Old 05-26-11, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by nerys View Post
OK. I have a legal problem. I want to build an electric assist bicycle but I do not want to ask "permission" of the state and I do not want to "give up" ownership of my vehicle. (when you "title" a vehicle you really are essentially giving up full ownership of the vehicle to the state) Don't want to get into that too much as it gets a wee close to "political" but you get the idea and now understand partially why I want to do the following. Plus it would be fun.

so for fun intellectually politically and just for the heck of it here is what I want to do.

...

...Suggestions?
Various thoughts:

...first off, you didn't say where you lived. Laws about motorized bicycles are different in different places; in the USA for instance, every state has its own laws and they vary widely from state-to-state. You cannot assume that just because one state does it one way, that all the others are pretty much the same.

...building a HPV that is safe to use on typical road conditions AND that will allow a typical person to sustain 45-50 MPH on pedal-power alone,,,, doesn't seem to be quite as easy as you think. From the efforts of others, I would suggest that a casual cruising speed of 35 MPH (on human-power alone) for a streamlined trike is more realistic, and even that will not be easy. If you could settle for a bicycle and not a trike, the streamlining becomes much easier.

...an electric pusher-trailer for a car? I'd think there's a lot of technical issues lurking there. I also don't think "a smaller amount of batteries" will be nearly as useful as you think, considering what they will cost (and the additional weight they will involve).

...an electric pusher-trailer for a motorcycle is even more "out-there"... it combines most of the problems of the car above, with even less vehicle stability.




...If you desire a hybrid velomobile, I say, go ahead and build one, use it wherever you want, and have fun. The law is not ever any moral absolute, it is only a rule that somebody else made for their own convenience. Catching violators is their problem, not yours.

Just take steps to visually conceal the motor and batteries, and keep the speeds moderate around town. Use an electric motor that is quiet and if the trike/bike body looks streamlined, 99.99% of cops will have no idea if you could really be pedaling it that fast or not. If they stop you and ask, lie about it. If you don't tell them, they're probably never going to know.
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Old 05-27-11, 10:38 AM
  #17  
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So you want to build a motorcycle but since you are going to call it something else, you won't need to get a license. I want the government to protect me from people like you. You can kill someone at those speeds. That is why they make vehicles pass crash tests and mechanical inspections. Have you lost your license that you can't just drive a motorcycle?
When they take you in front of a judge, please get someone to video the comic reaction to your ravings. It would be great on Youtube. Sounds like you need a motorcycle and a therapist for your paranoia of the government. I can't even imagine how dangerous a push trailer would be at those speeds. By the way, you will be hiring a lawyer, either before you build this rocket or after the police confiscate it. Might as well do it before.
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Old 05-27-11, 11:28 AM
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I think this thread has run its course.
Closed.
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