Cycling and bicycle discussion forums. 
   Click here to join our community Log in to access your Control Panel  


Go Back   > >

Electric Bikes Here's a place to discuss ebikes, from home grown to high-tech.

User Tag List

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old 09-07-12, 11:03 AM   #1
John swallow
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Angry 36V 9AH + 250W to upgrade

Hi I've got 36V 9Ah battery with a 250w motor on the back, I'm having trouble getting up the hill where I work plus with my over sized belle so I have a few question regarding my existing setup

Q1 can I put 36V 800W motor on the front with all the existing equipment if I can will that push me up the hill a lot faster?

Q2 or should I put more battery in to they equation if so which ones and will this give me more power for the hill?

Q3 or would I be better of taking the 250W motor of the back and replacing it with a 1000W again would that get me up the hill no bother?

Sorry for all the questions as I'm new to this stuff thanks.
John swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-12, 11:17 AM   #2
CigTech
Senior Member
 
CigTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Schwinn Empire XL
Posts: 1,556
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
1st more battery is like adding a bigger gas tank. So if you add more battery then you'll just have more range.

If you get a bigger motor like 1000 watt then you'll get up that hill.

A 250/350 watt motor is good for slow long flat rides only.
CigTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-12, 11:29 AM   #3
John swallow
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for the reply could I use 800w front wheel and keep the existing setup ie rear wheel etc or would they be no point
John swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-07-12, 10:55 PM   #4
CigTech
Senior Member
 
CigTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Schwinn Empire XL
Posts: 1,556
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
no point in that. even if you wanted to use the 250 watt rear motor for flat ridding, the front 800 watt motor will cuase drag and take away speed and range from the 250 watt motor. also the 800 watt motor would need it's own controller cue to it needing more amps then the 250 watt motor. and you would have to get a 500 watt controller to run 2 2 50 watt motor from one controller.

A 800w or 1000w motors cost about the same. So If I had a big long hill that needed to be overcome, I'd get the 1000w motor.

So to save time and money I'd just get the 1000 watt motor and controller.

Last edited by CigTech; 09-07-12 at 11:00 PM.
CigTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-12, 01:25 AM   #5
John swallow
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for your help have you got any good links for some cheap or medium set ups you could put on here for me thanks for all your help once again
John swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-12, 02:22 AM   #6
John swallow
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Remember I've only got a 36v 9ah battery thanks
John swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-12, 10:27 AM   #7
turbo1889
Transportation Cyclist
 
turbo1889's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Montana U.S.A.
Bikes: Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
What is the max discharge rating for your battery pack? Usually rated in "C"s as in if it is a 1-C max discharge rating that means that the maximum discharge rate is the C number (1 in this example) times the amp hour rating of the pack (9 in your case) times the voltage of the pack (36 in your case) which would mean that for your pack if it was a 1-C rated pack for max discharge then you you could only upgrade to about a 350watt motor (1 * 9 * 36 = 324watts) without also upgrading your battery pack (or more correctly buy another one of the same voltage and run them together in parallel). If on the other hand, your pack is rated for 2.5-C max discharge rate then that means you could upgrade all the way to an 800watt motor without any issues with your battery pack (2.5 * 9 * 36 = 810watts). If it doesn't list a C number on your pack then you might want to drop the manufacturer an e-mail asking them. Usually the packs that have the highest C ratings are NiMH packs which is what I am personally using right now (cheap and easy to build myself from raw cells) in all but one of my set-ups. Lithium and Sealed Lead batteries usually are rated for lower C numbers but a lot depends on the exact chemistry and internal geometry of the cells used so I would refer you to try to find that C number on the label of your pack and/or get the info from the manufacturer. Failing that with a little knowledge about the chemistry and cell type used in your pack an educated guess can be made by referencing similar cells that are rated for max discharge rate. A few packs will say right on them what the maximum wattage of motor is that can be used with them instead of giving a C number.

So long as you don't exceed that you should be fine with your present pack and you can even exceed it by a little bit for a short burst without causing problems. In addition there are some motor controllers out there with a battery saver function that are intended to be used with a higher wattage hub motor such as you are considering upgrading to but have a switch or button that puts them into power saver mode that limits the output to the motor to a lower wattage (usually either 200,250, or 350 watts) so you set the controller to power saver mode for everything but that big hill and then switch it into full power mode for the hill, considering your needs something along those lines would probably work best for you.
turbo1889 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-12, 11:45 AM   #8
John swallow
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi thanks for your help I've looked on the battery and my manual but no luck so I've e-mailed my supplier hopefully I'll get a reply soon from www.burischbikes.co.uk soon
John swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-12, 02:28 PM   #9
SpecialX
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 162
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Realize, that no matter what motor or battery you use, you will NOT get any more torque or speed...
You need to change the CONTROLLER and when you do that, you'll want to change the battery to a higher AH'd rating....
SpecialX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-12, 02:51 PM   #10
John swallow
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
You all do realise that all this is going over my head lol.can some one tell me a cheap kit apart from the battery ps hopefully I'll have the information on the battery over the weekend thanks again for all your help
John swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-12, 11:03 PM   #11
turbo1889
Transportation Cyclist
 
turbo1889's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Montana U.S.A.
Bikes: Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
I just followed the link you provided to the bike you are using on the manufactures web-site. Looks like what you have there is a fairly integrated system that is designed to be minimalist and smooth and sleak. I'm not so sure I'd try to mess with that system.

Most e-bikes even those professionally made are kind of cobbled together so to speak and thus there really isn't any harm in swapping out the components. Basically with a modern electric assist system there are three primary components (e-bike 101 short class):

The Motor, which can come in multiple variations:
----- Direct Drive Hub Motor, among the most common and simplest and most reliable design, but can give a little drag when pedaling without running the motor.
----- Internally Geared Hub Motor, slightly more complex and the internal gears and bearings eventually wear out over time so they don't last as long as a direct drive hub but they don't give any drag when pedaling without running the motor and in the smaller wattage are more efficient then a direct drive hub motor.
----- Crank Drive Motor, where the motor is built into the bottom bracket of the bike which although more complex and usually more expensive is a much better system since it allows the motor to drive through the bikes gears which allows the bike to climb hills much better with a lower wattage motor.
----- Mid-Drive Motor, where the motor is mounted behind, right in front of, right below the bottom bracket and the bikes chain is looped around a small sprocket attached to the motor so that it drives through the existing chain and gears of the bike just like a true crank drive motor and is usually a simpler and cheaper system then a true integrated crank drive but is not quite as good and doesn't look as clean and has higher chain wear then a crank drive.

The Battery, provides energy storage to run the motor off of. Some batteries are fully sealed packs built into aluminum or plastic housings that lock onto some sort of sliding rail mount or similar. Others are more basic shrink wrapped packs that go in some sort of pannier bags or similar. There are many different types of battery chemistry out there but it basically boils down to three main categories.
----- Lead Gel-Cell batteries, which their only good quality is that they are significantly cheaper then the other battery types but are heavy and bulky for how much energy they store.
----- Lithium batteries which store the most energy in the lightest package but are the most expensive (at least for initial cost) and require integrated battery management circuits to prevent overheating which can actually lead to them catching on fire and require specialized "smart" chargers specific to each pack configuration and chemistry.
----- NiMH batteries (and their older cousin NiCd) are about half way inbetween Lead Gel-Cell batteries and Lithium batteries holding more energy per weight then the lead batteries and costing less and running cooler without the need for battery management circuits then lithium batteries but still being heavier then lithium batteries. The do not require a "smart charger be used to charge them but will benefit from a "smart" charger built for them in terms of having a longer service life if charged with a NiMH "smart" charger.

The Controller, is the brain box of the whole system and has wires connecting to the battery, the motor, the throttle assembly on the handlebars, and in some cases also has sensors on the bikes bottom bracket and/or has a speedometer type sensor input on one of the wheels. It may also connect to some sort of display or read-out that is either integrated with the throttle assembly or a separate unit. Most controllers don't care what type of battery is attached to them although some do and are intended to be used with a specific type of battery (usually a specific lithium chemistry battery) and have the lithium battery management system built into the controller rather then into the battery pack, these controllers and battery packs are easily identified by the fact that instead of just two simple wires running between the battery and the controller they have a whole bunch of wires between the battery and controller. Most controllers will work with most four pole, three wire, brushless motors provided the amp draw of the motor and voltage of the battery pack do not exceed the rated maximum of the controller. This is not a matter of wattage which is amps * volts but rather a case where the two must be considered separably. If a controller is rated for a maximum of 48V then that is the maximum voltage you can put through it, it doesn't matter if it is also rated for a maximum of 30-Amps and you are only drawing 10-Amps with a 60V set-up and that is less total watts then 48V * 30-Amps system it is still too much voltage for the controller. The converse is also true, if a controller is rated for a maximum current of 30-Amps then you can't put 40-Amps through it even if your voltage is only 24V and that is less total wattage then 48V * 30-Amps. Both Voltage and Amps must not exceed the rated capacity of the controller. Obviously voltage is a function of the battery pack and Amp draw is a function of how big of a motor you use at what voltage. There is also something called a "Hall Sensor" on some motors that will have two small wires coming from the motor for that sensor along with the three big main current wires. Some motors have them some don't. Some controllers will only work with them and some are set-up not to use them, and a lot of controllers have the plug in for those two little wires but will work with or without a motor that has a hall sensor and the two extra wires to go with it.



So, if you have somewhat absorbed all that, you didn't ask about the controller just about the battery so I just ASSumed you knew that with a bigger motor you may need to get a higher rated controller (and I even suggested on of the ones that has a battery saver mode). The controller on your bike may be rated for higher Amps draw then your current motor low wattage motor is drawing and/or more voltage then your current battery pack is drawing, or it might not be. But I would suspect that if your jumping all the way up from a 250-watt hub motor to a 800 or 1,000 watt hub motor your controller probably isn't going to cover that large of a jump.

From the manufacturer web-site for your bike it appears that your bike is using an internally geared type rear hub motor. Most of those type of motors do not use a hall sensor and only have three big wires from the motor to the controller instead of three big wires and two small wires (for the hall sensor). Thus if you get a more powerful motor for your bike and your current controller is rated to handle the extra load you need to check and see if the controller has an empty plug for those two wires. If it does then it is a dual mode controller that can use a motor with a hall sensor or one without. If it doesn't then you need to make sure you buy non-hall sensor motor or one that doesn't need to have the hall sensor connected and will run either way.

Long story short you may or may not need to change out the controller along with the motor if your current controller isn't rated high enough to take the jump in load (and it probably isn't with that big of a jump). Which is why I sort of question the idea of messing with the system on this bike at all since it appears to be a fully integrated system on that bike and you could end up changing out the motor, the controller, and getting a second battery pack to hook up in parallel or series with your current pack to double either your available Amps or your available voltage and thus double the available energy on your battery end. By the time you are done doing that you would have just been better off if you had left that bike like it was and just built or bought a second e-bike with the higher power equipment on it.

With a bike like that which appears to have a fully integrated system it is very possible that the motor and controller are only designed to work with each other and the battery pack is only rated for a max discharge rate that will cover the wattage that this system draws. If it wasn't a fully integrated system but rather a kit build then your options could potentially be much better. There is plenty of kits and even fully built bikes out there that the manufacturer is using the same generic controller for all their kits from the lower end to the higher end of the power spectrum (are at the very least a couple steps of controllers like one controller for everything from 200 to 500 watts and another better rated controller for their 750 and 1,000 watt kits) so swapping in a larger motor that can be used with the same controller is completely do-able if you started out with a motor on the lower end of the spectrum that the controller covers and then if the battery pack can take the load you just shorten your range and drain it faster using more power at a time to run the larger motor. But with a fully integrated system your swap-out options are going to be much more limited and the critical data on the components isn't going to be labeled near as well. A generic controller is usually going to have what it is rated for stamped or printed right on it where as the controller in an integrated system might just be a black box with wires and no labels whatsoever. Same goes for battery packs and motors to a lesser extent. Generic components that have been put together get labeled for what they are rated for and/or have their own manuals or spec. sheets. Integrated components may only be designed to work with each other and labeling and critical information can be sketchy at best.

Last edited by turbo1889; 09-08-12 at 11:34 PM.
turbo1889 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-12, 05:14 AM   #12
John swallow
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Hi just got reply from my supplier he told me it's a(3.5c)
So on that I'll be looking to upgrade motor and controller any body got any good links on a cheep to medium range setup thanks for all your help guys I appreciate your help loads
John swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-12, 04:58 PM   #13
spirit733t
Senior Member
 
spirit733t's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: West Midands, England
Bikes: Saracen Killi Chromo 2
Posts: 127
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
@ turbo1889.. good post very informative and well presented..

a question for you, what do you think of the papamotor kit? its a 1000 watt direct drive system, 48 V, with a ping battery..
spirit733t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-10-12, 11:54 PM   #14
turbo1889
Transportation Cyclist
 
turbo1889's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Montana U.S.A.
Bikes: Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
John swallow:

Looks like your battery can handle a 1,000-watt hub-motor without exceeding it's maximum discharge rate (3.5 * 9 * 36 = 1134watts) and from my understanding your main needs are high torque not high speed. Sounds like if your going to stick with a hub-motor set-up you want a big direct drive that is wound for maximum torque rather then speed. Have not used them myself (yet) but have heard good thing about them from guys using their "Brute" motor kits on utility cargo hauling bikes: http://www.electricrider.com/crystalyte/index.htm I mainly mess around with non-hub motor set-ups that drive through the chain (Crank-Drive and Mid-drive) but their "Brute" kits were one of the things I researched and strongly considered in the beginning. Also, there is the "Ultimate Torque Kit" made by Niconia Motors but I have heard nothing one way or the other about them one way or the other: http://niconiamotors.com/kits.php

If you were more handy and knew your way around the wiring a lot better then I would suggest http://ebikes.ca for getting all kinds of goody parts but you have to know what works with what and how to put it all together. You can of course also order China direct which is cheaper for the components and sometimes better selection but a whole lot more shipping cost and the worries about whether it is all going to come through all right. I've done it for an order from cyclone and didn't get burned but it wasn't a decision I took lightly.




Spirit733t:

I am not familiar with the papamotor kits although I did scan the thread about them but didn't dig too deep. My main question would be whether they have a high wattage rear hub motor that is wound for torque instead of speed which is the direction the OP needs to be looking and his battery is 36V not 48V and it would save him some money if you can continue to use his existing battery and only needs to replace two of the three primary components instead of all three.

As to Ping batteries. If one is going to go with lithium battery technology the LiFePO4 battery technology is certainly one of the very best out there and one of the safest and most ecologically sound and for a China direct supplier Ping has a pretty good reputation for dealing straight. That said, their batteries are non-repairably soft body cells. The one build I have done so far using LiFePO4 batteries I was able to locate some 12V 20Ah battery packs built for the solar power industry built with cylindrical hard body cells (think AA shaped cells several times larger and on steroids) that are fully repairable if one cell goes bad in the pack with their own pack balancing, charging, and discharge managment circuit board built into the pack for about the same price range. I've got two of them wired together running a 24V cyclone motor and the really nice part is that I can charge them off of any 12V power source (in parallel for charging and in series for powering the motor) since the circuit board built into the pack does all the balancing and charge management.

Long story short if that is the battery technology you want to use then packs that use cylindrical hard body cells or aluminum alloy cased rectangular "prism" cells are potentially a better option then the soft cell shrink wrapped packs that Ping sells and the solar industry is a good place to look not just the electric bike industry to find a good deal.

Last edited by turbo1889; 09-11-12 at 12:23 AM.
turbo1889 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-12, 10:34 AM   #15
John swallow
Junior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Sep 2012
Bikes:
Posts: 8
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
Thanks for your all your help turbo1889
John swallow is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-12-12, 06:07 PM   #16
turbo1889
Transportation Cyclist
 
turbo1889's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Montana U.S.A.
Bikes: Too many to list, some I built myself including the frame. I "do" ~ Human-Only-Pedal-Powered-Cycles, Human-Electric-Hybrid-Cycles, Human-IC-Hybrid-Cycles, and one Human-IC-Electric-3way-Hybrid-Cycle
Posts: 1,206
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 10 Post(s)
I took a closer look at the Papa Motor web-site and it does appear there is a small reference at the very bottom of their listing for their 48V/1000W kit indicating that it can be run off of a 36V battery pack as well with a lower output power:

http://www.electric-bikekit.com/387-...eeks-delivery/

$407 including full shipping charges world wide for a full kit including everything but the battery is a pretty good deal. Obviously at 36V it isn't going to put out it's full rated power of 1000W but it might be worth sending them an e-mail and asking if it is "Plug & Play" compatible with a 36V battery and nothing special is required to run it off of 36V and how much power it outputs and how well it would climb a hill at the lower voltage level. Probably not wound for torque like the Electric Rider "Brute" motor but a lot cheaper so it's worth looking into.
turbo1889 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-12, 12:18 AM   #17
CigTech
Senior Member
 
CigTech's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Ohio
Bikes: Schwinn Empire XL
Posts: 1,556
Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 0 Post(s)
i think your looking at the top speed and range chart. Thats just there to give you a idel for what kit does what speed and range. The 48v kit comes with a 48v controller. you whould need to put a 36v controller on it to use a 36v battery.
CigTech is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off



All times are GMT -6. The time now is 04:58 AM.


We are a participant in the Amazon Services LLC Associates Program, an affiliate advertising program designed to provide a means for us to earn fees by linking to Amazon.com and affiliated sites.
 
  • Ask a Question
    get answers from real people!
Click to start entering your question.
I HAVE A QUESTION