Just what is a good brand?
 

I see there are many makers of e-bikes and e-bike kits.

Who makes a truly reliable product and has good customer service?

http://www.kalkhoffusa.com/e-bikes.php

Klakhoff. Uses a Panosonic motor and all the bike components are top notch.

E-Maxi MiPower gets my approvalhttp://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=289253 :)

For bike kits -----many but midrive for the hills as gears are needed.Cyclone (other names too for this one)its midrive has all parts off net. these have more to go wrong but to me easyier to work with greasy hands than swett up the hill.--been to google Yes Klakloff is good wish they'd say the wattage though. ---My most reliable is Al Frame Scott bike with cyclone 500w. battery is 12ah weighs all up 23kg -still with a derailer though.

Cyclone is like amatourish, cheap DIY ebike add-on kit comparing with rock-solid Panasonic.
I agree you better carry hand cleaner.

All it takes is to do research on GOOGLE

Panasonic mid-drive is used on many European bicycles for a reason -reliability.
Bosh is not far away, also beautiful system.
You cannot beat factory designed system.
Let me tell you I am DIY person
I like tinkering and modyfying myself , but it would take years and access to complex tools, contracting expensive services like machining
to build something like Panasonic or Bosh drive. not to mention electronics to design and buld.

when it comes to hub motor kits
I would never touch eBay sort of hub kits.
Of course you can assembly them , put on your bike if you have patience
how long they will last?
How reliable are such kits?
How often would have to push back shoddy connectors , tighten loose nuts, edjust and adjust.
I ride in subzero temp , my ebike hasto be reliable , I cannot stop in minus10C and start pushing connectors, tighten stuff or thinker with shoddy stuff.

Not really reliable. You get what you pay for rules - no difference from other products.
and riding experience?
if you enjoy whine of motor, jerking, cogging , on/off throttle which acts like a switch , useless misleading battery meter, and so on and on.
so it is for you

Yep with reserch they are good keeping to midrive & 500w plus just cost more & less hand cleaner.

I think the low powered gear motor Q100 kit on www.bmsbattery.com is a nice solution for generic roadbikes (201rpm on 700C). They are super simple to install, freewheel beautifully, and are quiet and efficient. Torquey enough for the power too. Easy to power at either 36 or 48 volts with the battery of choice. I'm using a KU63 controller on 48V on my Norco hybrid, and can nicely sustain 25mph on the flat, and hold my speed on hills. The bike is totally rideable too, with no power, maybe a 1% frictional loss. I've got other heavier motors on some other bikes, and find I'm enjoying the lighter motor a lot, although the other bikes are more powerful. Also known as the Ananda "Cute 100".Check it out...the higher rpm 328rpm version is good for 20" wheeled bikes like folders etc., as well.

Wow! I'm learning a lot!

On the low end of the spectrum, the eZip Trailz is hard to beat as a
complete bike.

Just don't buy it assembled( except from LBS or specialty electric store)!

The major drive components were patented in 1997 and have undergone
very few modifications since then. The 450 watt motor is brushed, but
the chain interface reduces the efficiency a bit. The bike comes with a
sealed lead acid battery, but the company offers two upgrades. A 9.6
and 6.7 amp li-ion, which will slide into the installed rack.
There is nothing else to do .

You can put a SLA on one side and a Li Ion on the other ( or two of either one)
and double the distance.

Oh yes, have a qualified bicycle mechanic set it up. This bike suffers from
volume oriented assembly practices when people are talking about their
problems with it. It is a very robust drive system in my opinion.

The are a number of manufacturers of ebikes who do a good job of supporting
their products. Pedego, Currie, Prodeco, Strommer, Ohm, Yuba, Stealth and
Ultramotor, eMoto are among the leaders.

The abiltiy to get information and parts will be crucial. The specialty
brands start about $1000 (Currie IZIP Vibe with a lead acid battery)
and top out with one of the Stealth models around $10,000.

Availability of replacement batteries is essential.

One additional thought about complete ebikes vs kits.

Bikes are designed to carry the components of the bicycle and ebike correctly.
Wiring tie down points along with battery and controller mounting are generally
well thought out.

The wiring harnesses have the correct routing and length to function.

No matter what you are going to spend, research the bike and company. You
can definitely get less expensive bike and kits on line, but a component
breakdown may not have a fix or a source of parts.

Many times these can be off the shelf components put together to function
as a kit, or bicycle for that matter. The difference is ( and this is something
to consider when calculating the price / value of your purchase) that the
components the better specialty manufacturers use can be custom designed
batteries, controllers,battery management systems, motors and controls.
These are engineered and built to their specs and work as an integrated
drive system.

The component pieces are usually - unplug the old and plug in the new - if
there is a problem. I know Currie sells parts for scooters from the 1990's
and they do this.

I would go with either a Bosch or a BionX kit if I were you. Otherwise I would buy a KTM.

For a complete bike, I would look at Currie. Particularly, the IZIP models.

I have two ebikes. They were both about $2k and I like them both. The ODK from juiced riders has enough torque for hills a huge battery and it's a cargo bike. The mipower has a smaller battery than the ODK but it's still larger than most and is a reliable ebike. Both of these bikes have hub motors. I hear great things about mid drive systems but those bikes are all out of my price range. The customer service has been good with both of these bikes aswell. I have had questions aplenty answered by Juiced Riders customer support. The warranty for the mipower has held up when needed. The ODK hasn't needed any yet but it's hardly broken in.

Stick with something that has local service and support. We handle Bionx and Velec here and both those products are Canadian. In fact Bionx batteries are assembled and sealed in Ontario.

Have talked to lots of dealers who tried importing and selling Chinese kits and they were all disasters. Believe me - if a dealer doesn't want to carry somethig - it because they lose money doing so.

Burton
Agree
INITIAL impression of such China brand kits can be misleading
Example Magic Pie with internal controller is a design disaster
But when you look at it you see nice graphics on covers
It takes technical person to notice crude machining undersized wiring low quality connectors etc etc

I would not count the chines bikes out too fast. If I am not mistaken the vast majority of ebikes that are actually used for real world transportation needs are built and used by the Chinese. The Bionix system does have a solid reputation. However the size of their batteries and the fact that you can only use their battery packs just kills it for me.

+1 :thumb:

As an owner of a Chinese kit I may be slightly biased but I see no reason mine will not continue to function well for a long time. True I had to tighten the spokes after 5 miles (probably were loose out of the box), but has been smooth sailing for the next 100 or so miles. I own the Papamotor kit. You asked about customer service, that is one thing this company has in spades. As for reliability, I've only done about 100 miles so time will tell, but the motor has been well received on this forum as well as endless-sphere. The battery is a Ping so that should be just fine. As for the controller, one year warranty that I know this company will stand behind, and if it fails after that I can pick up a reliable aftermarket unit (that is if it fails at all). I kind of like kits because I hate proprietary anything. If I own it I have the right to modify it without dealing with proprietary electronics and fasteners put in place to stop me. Kits appeal to me for that reason. My $0.02.

+1 :thumb:

The Papamotor 48v 1000w kit and 48v 15Ah Ping battery ROCK!!! I'm pretty sure I have over 4,000 miles on mine. I haul books, a laptop, AND groceries without any complaints from the motor.

Check out this Panasonic B-ENV, Titanium frame, mid drive system, 15.7 KG's , 60 mile range.
This is in production & many are sold but in Japan only, it'll run you between 5-6 thousand USD.
This bike it to die for, ever notice the really good e-bikes with the Bosch systems & the Panasonic systems like this one are only available in Japan & Germany. I wonder if they would ship it to US, I like it better then the new " cheaper " model optibike even. sweet bike.http://bikeforums.net/attachment.php...hmentid=300989

I probably shouldn't be in this thread but, I talked to three different bike shop owners before I bought my BionX system and 1 that went broke... They all said, they tried to sell different types of E-Assist bikes and all dropped everything but the BionX. They all said they were going to go broke if they kept up their sales with the brands they were selling except for the BionX, all the other brands (I'm suspecting, Chinese brands, they wouldn't say) there were WAaaay to much after sales fixing and warranty work that it was actually costing them big $ over all, after the sale to keep the bikes going, so the ONLY E-Assist system they now sell is the BionX system... That said, If you are mechanically inclined, and do all your own maintenance, other systems I'm sure can work for you, for less $ in the end if you "know" your stuff, it can actually be "better" for you and your type of use...

"Real World" transportation in China is not the same as in N. America. I'm "fairly" sure that the average Chinese doesn't commute to work riding their bike 20 Miles.. JMO Just because "millions" of them may be getting to work and back home on their E-Assist bikes doesn't mean we in N. America would be able to on the type of bikes they have there... Again JMO

350htrr,
so you the second oneonly to confirm what Burton wrote about ebike dealers.
wHEN I was buying my TF in BC Kelowna he told me he was only renting China brands ebikes and would never sell them.
UNLESS with no warranty he told me.
Of course there are better kits among China brands. But nothing compare to computerized well enginered BIONX.
fizbiz,
PapaMotor well received on EndlessSphere???
someting opposite here
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/vie...688699#p688699

Stealth Bomber or the Phantom X.


BIONX kits are Canadian so when someone approves them.. be sure to check their location. Usually Canada. Justin Bieber is also from Canada. You do the math.

Another Note: Just because something is overpriced doesn't necessarily mean it's going to outperform it's "Chinese" counterpart. Many major bicycle manufacturers design and spec their entry level and midrange bikes here in the United States (Trek for instance) but they are manufactured in China. Walmart also has bikes manufactured in China but as we all know the Chinese bikes in the Bike Shop are of much higher quality then the Walmart specials. China has different quality levels of manufacturing and is fully capable of producing reliable stuff that can take years of abuse. Easy Motion for instance.

Lastly, Notice.. no editing in my post. ;)

The reason why in my opinion many bike shops shy away from selling E-Bikes are the following first being is theses things are not for your average person.
E-Bikes need more maintenance then a regular bike, especially spokes also they get more flats then regular bikes & they are harder to fix the flats . I think that in order to own any brand e-bike you need to be a pretty good mechanic, also have had a lot of experience riding bicycles for many miles or better yet have cut your teeth on motorbikes for years.
Even though the gearless hub motors are whisper quiet & smooth the controllers are more complicated & they do fail I dont care what brand bike.
There's other issues that come when you electrify a bicycle it's harder on the components, brakes wear out faster, seat rails flatten easier, kick stands break easier, rims bend easier, tires wear faster.. Then there's the batteries, if you dont give the battery love, balance the charging, dont use the bike untill it's a dead battery as often as possible, leave it out in the rain, you'll be asking for a warranty replacement . Last & not least the average consumer today demands excellent customer service & warranty's with an E-Bike there's too many intangibles as far as things that can & will go wrong if not used & maintained properly. I was thinking about becoming a dealer as many others were or are but I could imagine the headaches, plus I wouldnt want to sell them to anyone under 18 years old & some of the cheaper bikes with cheap lithium batteries & cheap chargers scare me as fire hazards..so theres a lot of concerns being an E-Bike dealer. Look @ companies like Trek they cut their E-Bike line in 1/2 something like that to 3 models. & I think Prodeco is in for a surprise offering a 2 year warranty..

Adrian
you mix up "made in China" with "China brand".
there is "China brand" with no connection to Western company and there is Western company manufacturing in China , 2 different animals.
Again China brand has usually no connection to any Western entity
many western companies move production faciities to China.
- Sony camera is same quality made in China or made in Japan, Sony use exact same robots in China in production environmant with supervision but with Chinese labour.

two people here said they spoke to bicycle shops who would not sell China brands I also spoke to one who would not sell them.
editing is not against any rules here , may correct spelling, people add things to posts later,

It's cool friend. :thumb:

One thing I've noticed is that a company (let's say Ezip who makes the Trailz) can make a thousand bikes bikes and if 5 of them turn out to be lemons.. then you can bet your back bacon that those buyers will be slamming them endless sphere-ingly style right into the dirt.. along with competitors posing as other Ezip users to discredit them.

It's E-wolf pack mentality that ends up making the whole electric bike movement look like a hobbyists experimental joke and suspends potential sales of Ebikes for ALL companies involved. Youtube vids that show kids with 1000w motors doing wheelies or throttling around in the dirt are useless as well. A couple grand for a "kit" that is essentially a toy, thumbed up by a thousand teenagers isn't a sound nor wise decision. Then again, if parents paid for it who cares how long it will last or if you'll end up back on Endless Sphere trying to figure out what went wrong. If Endless Sphere isn't there to back up my malfunctioning garbage..then who will? At the very least they will make you feel special. Very special.

Crispus, decide on a price you want to pay for a bike and then research ALL companies thoroughly that offer Ebikes in your price range. Customer Service and Warranty are key to this movement going Professionally Mainstream. Select a company that sincerely appreciates your interest in their product and is willing to talk to you about it in detail over the phone. If you are near a facility that manufactures the bikes then ask for a tour. View, touch and experience the build process. Be sure to see the interior of the mid-drive system/motor. Be sure to ask them what they expect in return from their customers. Pick a random employee in the assembly area and ask them how they REALLY feel about the bike. Be sure to stand close enough to sense whether or not they've got booze on their breath. Inquire to see whether or not they are aware of increasing reports of downtube mounted Lithium Ion batteries causing permanent Erectile Disfunction Disorder (EDD).

The other option is to follow the human instinct of gambling and just "pull the trigger" and buy something outright without fully researching. Might work.. it just might work. If this is your style then just grab an Ezip Trailz off Amazon. It's an affordable price, people love em and a good jump start into Ebiking.

I wonder why that is? I don't blame the consumer for the way the E-bike movement is going. You're right though. It does seem like a big experiment. I for one like to tinker and thought my E-bike would be a fun toy. I expect it to function reliably but it gives me something to work on since giving up my car to live in the city. Endless-sphere is not really the place for the average consumer though. I have a pretty good DIY aptitude and I am frequently lost in those forums. Those people are not consumers though, more like developers. Until someone provides what they are looking for out of the box they will continue making their own. That's the beauty of the E-bike, maybe more complicated than a standard bike, but still a beautifully simply and efficient machine. Motor, controller, battery. That's all you really need. I think many of the "China brand" motors have proven themselves to be very reliable. Controllers aren't really that expensive and some have earned a reputation for reliability. Finally, a good battery may be the single most expensive component, and while they can have problems (like everything else), a good brand will likely last you a very long time (assuming proper care).

"to be fair to papamotor RuggedRiderAUS had said the motor itself is good and the battery is excellent too, also he has said that he dropped the bike a few times, and has also ridden it off road a few times.. I think alot of kits would have same problems here if that was to happen..

also its not fair to be so judgemental on the kit when the price of the motor, controller, parts is under £250.. so your really paying for a top of the line Ping battery..

the better quality motors like bmc or crystalyte are normally around double that price and that is just for the motor alone.

But like I said. Thicker stator than the 9C or MXUS I also own."

I'm not saying this kit is top of the line, but that the company provides good service (at least while under warranty) and it may be a good foundation for upgrades when the time comes. Again, I have not ridden it much...why don't we postpone this debate for 6 months or so and I will give everybody an update on the kit's performance.