Bicycle computer with "all" power related data
 

I'm looking for a bicycle computer with the following features:

MUST:
1. reliable: must not lose data.
2. ANT+ compatible.
3. stores all ride data and makes them available for download
via a USB connection
(preferably via a non-proprietary format, e.g., just mount it
as a drive; must not require a "smart phone" or something like that).
4. can store "all" power related data: not just current power, but also
at least:
Left/Right Balance
Pedal Smoothness (PS)
Torque Efficiency (TE)
5. upgradable: future additional metrics should just require a
firmware update.
6. buttons with tactile feedback so you don't need to look
at the unit whether pressing a button actually worked.
7. able to handle intervals (start/stop at least).
and probably some other stuff that I forgot/take for granted.

SHOULD:
8. small: preferably as small as a Polar R710, but certainly not
bigger than an Edge 500.
9. if possible, no GPS or able to turn it off to get longer
battery life.


I've looked at:
- Garmin Edge 500 (not entirely reliable but maybe the best match
right now except that it seems there will be no further firmware
upgrades)

- Joule 1.0, GPS: fails at least #4 (seemingly also #5 )

- O Synce Navi2Coach: not clear about #4 , manual doesn't show it,
online description claims it is available for Rotor PM only,
support doesn't answer (except an auto-reply to RTFM).

Why the Garmin 500, that product is discontinued, why not the 520 which is still supported. Your list is pretty complete and particular. I am not sure you will be able to satisfy every requirement.

Current GPS enabled cyclo-computers can go pretty far on a single charge, With my 810 I have gotten just a few minutes past 10 continuous hours of data recording. Are you an ultra-marathon biker, or can you charge it each night?

Firmware upgrades are going to be hit or miss, manufacturers don't want to upgrade stuff, they would rather you buy new stuff to get all the latest features.

Also do you actually know what you are planning to do with all that data?

If you want pedal smoothness and torque effectiveness (which I've never had a use for), you need Garmin Vector pedals. Maybe PowerTap's new P1 pedals will give you this data, too, but I don't believe so. I think they can calculate it but it falls under the heading of Cycling Dynamics and Garmin haven't opened the ANT+ standard for that. I could be mistaken on this point though. I think that limits you to a Garmin, you could use a modern Edge unit or a watch. Or both. I like my Fenix 3.

Through a USB cable is actually very inconvenient compared to having it automagically appear where you need it, over the air. My watch uploads my data for me at the end of a ride, it goes through my phone to the internet, and it's available before I walk in the door and take my bike shoes off. The computers themselves have very good battery life, most people don't charge them between rides, and that means there's no reason to go find the right USB cable and power up the laptop just to see your data.

That is incorrect. There are other power meters that provide this data (e.g., Rotor and Infocrank), that's why I asked.

Well, those are my requirements -- other people have probably different requirements.

I didn't know that. It's definitely possible to collect pedal smoothness and torque effectiveness at the crank itself.

Still don't know if you'll be able to record that data from anything but Vectors unless you go with a proprietary computer, like the Joule for a PT. Definitely look into it before you part with your money! I dug around a little bit and saw this on Rotor's faq:

I know general ANT+ has supported power and L/R balance for years...

PS - Most modern head units now can be synced over USB or BT and some over wifi as well. You should try more convenient options if you get the chance. :)

sigma Rox 10 comes pretty close ...
SIGMA SPORT

here are some of the features:

http://www.sigmasport.com/en/produkt...gps/highlights

"convenient" for whom?

Maybe I don't have a "smart phone" or a computer that has "wireless"?

BTW: Favero bePro is yet another power meter that offers "TE" and "PS".

Thanks, but the Sigma has neither TE nor PS, so it's no better than a Joule 1.0 for my requirements.

I haven't heard of Favero bePro. Are a lot of people using their meter? One of the luminaries in the road forum offers up the advice not to buy power meters with low serial numbers.

Anyway, Garmins are far and away the most popular bike computers, especially among people using power meters. The Edge 520 meets all your requirements including PS/TE from power meters that send that data over ANT+. I'm not certain any PM other than Vector does that because I've heard the ANT+ message format for this is closed off to other manufacturers. I'd recommend making sure before you buy anything that it will work, or buying from a store with a good return policy.

I hope it works for you.

Lezyne SuperGPS does 1 - 6. Doesn't do 7. About the same size as a Garmin 5xx. Can't turn off GPS but has a 20+ hour battery life with GPS running, so not a big deal. Typical high quality Lezyne design and construction (thing feels solid as a rock). At just under $200 it's a bargain.

Thanks for pointing me to the Lezyne SuperGPS, I downloaded the manual to check it out, it looks rather promising.
The main drawback right now is the fact that it always shows speed as first entry, which isn't really useful for me.
BTW: the unit does intervals ("Laps"), maybe there's a misunderstanding?
I didn't refer to "Auto-Interval" (Garmin lingo for Intervals based on GPS data) -- after all I prefer not to have GPS at all.

Yes, the lack of display configurability on the Lezyne is the only "con" that I've found. In 4-line mode you get speed, two stats of your choosing, and a line that continuously cycles through all the other stats. I'm hopeful that a future firmware update will provide a little more display configurability, but I wouldn't bet any money on it.

By intervals I thought you were asking for a programmable interval timer that will count down effort, recover, and number of reps (my Garmin Forerunner watch does that). If you just want to track them, the Lezyne has you covered.

Are you looking for something for actual road use, or is this mainly for a trainer (hence the lack of interest in GPS and speed)? For trainer use I'd forego the bike computer all together and get an ANT+ USB stick, a cheap laptop, and the GoldenCheetah software. Totally configurable data display with live graphs on a "big" laptop screen beat every bike computer I've seen.

The head unit is "for actual road use".
For the trainer I use Golden Cheetah.

I'm planning on storing the data and display it in Golden Cheetah and look at all the squiggly lines
:-)

Kidding aside: I don't know yet what kind of information I could get out of that data, but I don't want to simply throw it away.

The data part is the funny thing. People with a vested interest in sports want more data, doesn't matter how useful that data is or isn't they want more, and their marketing arms want more checkboxes. The medical community as a whole could careless about all your graphs and charts and how many watts you can produce, they don't want your Strava segment data or your FitBit information. So I just find it amusing that we all want more data with no one else who cares about it except us, and I am an admitted data junkie too.

The medical community has no interest in optimizing your performance. They want to fix what's broken and send you on your way. If they need data, they'll collect their own because a) they have more control/knowledge of the variables; b) they can bill for it.

But if you're serious about improving your performance on the bike and you don't have the luxury of just "ride lots", then using data to optimize your training is pretty important. You can easily learn the mechanics for using things like Training Stress Balance without having to understand all the math and science behind it. And new metrics like balance and smoothness aren't just there to check a box, they're there to show you whether you'd benefit from things like rollers or one-leg drills.

Of course your doctor doesn't care about your watts and TSS, he/she isn't the one that has to ride or rest tomorrow. It's not that the data is useless, it's that it only applies to one person, so it's not really interesting to anyone else. Kind of like how you don't care what bread costs in Seattle, but it's still a useful thing for me. :)

Like I said, I am a data junkie. I ride with a Garmin, heart monitor and have a Power2Max PM on my 'Dale. Just talking out loud about our need for more data, no matter of it usefulness. I never said useless, just some of it may be less valuable than we would hope it to be. Take for example left/right balance, some experts in the field of biomechanics believe that trying to achieve perfect balance left and right might actually cause physical harm, of course others think differently but the point is, if there is no practical way to use the data, do we really need it?

Personally I collect it all and ignore what I don't care about. But that still doesn't stop me from collecting it, HDD space is cheap, charts and graphs are pretty (sometimes).

It turned out that the Garmin Edge 500 does not support TE/PS even in version 3.30:
I misunderstood the "change history" that states "Added Vector power sensor support".

Maybe I should search for a small device that simply collects all ANT+ data (WASP?),
any suggestions?

o'synce support finally replied to my navi2coach questions but didn't answer them...
(they only wrote that just a few power meters transmit TE/PS data),
so that's probably out if they can't even provide some basic pre-sales support.

Next up: contact Powertap/Lezyne and see if they have firmware updates planned
to make their head units more useful.

My L/R balance is all over the board. Averaged 56/44 % on a 30 mile ride yesterday. It always comes out to that ballpark but jumps all over the place during the ride. I've seen that across two power meters on two very different road bikes. When I run, my ground contact time balance is always within a % of a perfect 50/50. I really don't know what it means but I think I can rule out a bad sensor, fit issue, and weak leg.

Garmin's first generation of running dynamics was basically "here's a bunch of data, see if anybody finds any of it useful." For the most part, it really wasn't useful for most people. They came out with gen 2 running dynamics recently, and there's some great stuff in there. I think a lot of the cycling dynamics stuff isn't terribly useful, either, unless you have a specific need for it like if you're recovering from an injury.

Here's what I got so far from some companies:

Lezyne: no plans to make the first field something else than speed.
Powertap: nothing but an auto-reply (weird, usually they answer reasonably fast).
But: o'synce replied again, telling me that TE/PS should work with other power meters than just Rotor (despite what the website states) and older models can be updated via firmware.
So I ordered a navi2Coach from power2max (support replies to mail within 2 hours -- even on the weekend!) who have an old version (hopefully upgradable!) on sale.

@SlowerGuy, I love the Power2Max people, always responsive and the power meter I eventually chose, unfortunately I a living with the bastard stepchild of the Garmin line, the Edge 800 series (810 to be exact). I was looking at the 520 but I really like the 800 series size and color screen. I am going to take a second look at the Navi2Coach. What held it back before is still true, I take trips where I leave my house then just ride without a particular destination or route, so I wander around trying to find new places, the Navi2Coach seems to only follow predefined routes (GPX files). Nor does it have a color screen.

Guess I may need to reprioritize my personal wish list.