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GPS Question, extra geeky!

Old 09-16-21, 11:07 AM
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GPS Question, extra geeky!

Yeah as the thread title says. Does anyone know if there are any GPS cyclecomputers that are WAAS/SBAS capable? Raw readings in my area can be a bit hit or miss, and I'd like to improve my accuracy.

Eric
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Old 09-16-21, 11:23 AM
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None that I'm aware of and they don't need to be equipped as such. In the event you are not getting a good GPS signal, the easiest solution is to add what is know as a Speed Sensor. It mounts on F or R wheel, rotates and senses the earths magnetic field and tells the unit the distance travelled. They are very accurate and over-ride a flaky GPS signal, which can happen in canyons, or densely wooded area's.
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Old 09-16-21, 11:37 AM
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Thanks, yes I use a speed sensor, and yes that is because of the shaky signal in the mountains and forests here. My issue is purely one of location, and yes it's as much of a nerdy sort of thing as it sounds LOL.

Eric
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Old 09-16-21, 02:49 PM
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Isn't WAAS sort of an old kludge that isn't needed anymore? I've got WAAS on many of my older marine chart plotters and handhelds. But never seen it on bike gps's. Though I've not really cared to look for it either.

Many already additionally use GLONASS and that other system I can't think of the name right now.
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Old 09-16-21, 04:07 PM
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My understanding of WAAS was it was a limited range (actually, it's got national coverage I just read) ground based system developed for aircraft to utilize GPS at airfields. It improves the accuracy for aircraft, one goal was to be used at airfields that did not have other guidence systems, so that the aircraft could safely land using what otherwise was a somewhat innacurate GPS system. It's in use currently, but the certified receivers are very expensive.

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Old 09-16-21, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Isn't WAAS sort of an old kludge that isn't needed anymore? I've got WAAS on many of my older marine chart plotters and handhelds. But never seen it on bike gps's. Though I've not really cared to look for it either.

Many already additionally use GLONASS and that other system I can't think of the name right now.
The Euro based Galleleo system
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Old 09-17-21, 04:50 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Isn't WAAS sort of an old kludge that isn't needed anymore? I've got WAAS on many of my older marine chart plotters and handhelds. But never seen it on bike gps's. Though I've not really cared to look for it either.

Many already additionally use GLONASS and that other system I can't think of the name right now.
WAAS/SBAS is a signal used to correct positioning you get from the GPS signals (regardless of net used) on the fly. Adding in Glonass, or one of the other nets adds more available standard gps satelites, which has an accuracy boost as well, but is different from the system I asked about. Yes quite far down the proverbial wormhole, but it's kinda what I do.
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Old 09-17-21, 07:39 AM
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Originally Posted by exercion View Post
WAAS/SBAS is a signal used to correct positioning you get from the GPS signals (regardless of net used) on the fly. Adding in Glonass, or one of the other nets adds more available standard gps satelites, which has an accuracy boost as well, but is different from the system I asked about. Yes quite far down the proverbial wormhole, but it's kinda what I do.
Exactly my idea of a kludge. WAAS is old stuff. But if you go to Garmin's Aviation products I think you'll see it talked about quite a bit. Aviation navigation was one of the main driving force for WAAS in the early days.

Have you considered that WAAS and SBAS might be so integrated into the what we simply call GPS that maybe there isn't any need to even talk about them separately?

Once you go about making all the circuitry for a gps receiver on a chip, it's really not any extra to include the other stuff and to make firmware for it.

Maybe the sales departments realized our eyes glazed over from all the acronyms and agreed just to lump it all under GPS.

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Old 09-17-21, 10:57 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Exactly my idea of a kludge. WAAS is old stuff. But if you go to Garmin's Aviation products I think you'll see it talked about quite a bit. Aviation navigation was one of the main driving force for WAAS in the early days.

Have you considered that WAAS and SBAS might be so integrated into the what we simply call GPS that maybe there isn't any need to even talk about them separately?

Once you go about making all the circuitry for a gps receiver on a chip, it's really not any extra to include the other stuff and to make firmware for it.

Maybe the sales departments realized our eyes glazed over from all the acronyms and agreed just to lump it all under GPS.
It's not for everyone, absolutely, and why I titled this post the way I did. I do not think it is integrated completely, as the high end gps units I used had icons for when WAAS was available and the differential correction was being performed real-time (I think I just heard a bunch of eyes glazing LOL) It is a separate signal from GPS, and while developed for planes, that's not its only application. Not old by a long shot as it is being used currently but not generally seen in the consumer market, but since I hadn't really looked at that many higher end units like the Garmins that cost more than my car, I figured I'd ask if anyone had seen any with that nifty little icon.
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Old 09-17-21, 12:55 PM
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Like I originally stated, my old handhelds and marine gps's had WAAS capability. Looking at the new Garmin handhelds, they too still have WAAS. So if you need it, then you can get it in a very inexpensive unit...

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/87768#specs

But with the all the new Garmin Edges able to additionally use many of the other satelite based navigation systems besides just the GPS system, isn't that sort of SBAS like? And won't that make your reception a little better in your area?

I don't know how widespread WAAS systems are now. But since they are ground based, unless there is one in your area you'll probably not have any better accuracy. Their signal will be even further attenuated by trees, buildings and terrain it must pass through.
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Old 09-17-21, 04:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
I don't know how widespread WAAS systems are now.
WAAS was very useful when "selective availability" (SA) was disabled.

Since SA isn't disabled now (usually!), WAAS isn't as useful.

Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Like I originally stated, my old handhelds and marine gps's had WAAS capability. Looking at the new Garmin handhelds, they too still have WAAS. So if you need it, then you can get it in a very inexpensive unit...

https://buy.garmin.com/en-US/US/p/87768#specs
New cheaper GNSS receivers likely don't support WAAS because there's no reason to (with "selective availability" always enabled).

====================

https://www8.garmin.com/aboutGPS/waas.html (this is a few years old.)

For some users in the U.S., the position of the satellites over the equator makes it difficult to receive the signals when trees or mountains obstruct the view of the horizon. WAAS signal reception is ideal for open land and marine applications.
If this is the case, WAAS won't do much for the OP.

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Old 09-17-21, 04:43 PM
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Originally Posted by exercion View Post
Yeah as the thread title says. Does anyone know if there are any GPS cyclecomputers that are WAAS/SBAS capable? Raw readings in my area can be a bit hit or miss, and I'd like to improve my accuracy.

Eric
Not sure what you mean. I'm going to guess you are having issues getting a GPS signal.

WAAS/SBAS increases accuracy. It doesn't improve "readings". WAAS uses satellites over the equator (which are generally going to be harder to get a signal from in higher northern/southern latitudes).

Most current receivers can use more than one GNSS constellation: GPS+Glonass or GPS+Gallileo, which increases the number of satellites available (in good positions) to use.

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Old 09-17-21, 07:23 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Not sure what you mean. I'm going to guess you are having issues getting a GPS signal.

WAAS/SBAS increases accuracy. It doesn't improve "readings". WAAS uses satellites over the equator (which are generally going to be harder to get a signal from in higher northern/southern latitudes).

Most current receivers can use more than one GNSS constellation: GPS+Glonass or GPS+Gallileo, which increases the number of satellites available (in good positions) to use.

I get all that, without going into my background in GPS systems. My question was really a simple: are any cycle computers WAAS enabled? Never planned to get into the debate of why I would like that lol.
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Old 09-17-21, 07:48 PM
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Originally Posted by exercion View Post
I get all that, without going into my background in GPS systems. My question was really a simple: are any cycle computers WAAS enabled? Never planned to get into the debate of why I would like that lol.
No (most likely). It's not necessary (somewhat obviously).you

I wasn't wasn't "debating" anything. I was pointing out the reasons why it's not used in cycling computers. You aren't the only person reading/responding-to this public thread.

If you "get all that", it's odd you even asked.
​​​​​​

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Old 09-18-21, 09:55 AM
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Might be better to ask what can improve your accuracy instead of limiting the discussion to WAAS and SBAS.

WAAS in general won't do much for you in your situation in my opinion. However you could get a used, refurbed or new handheld that has WAAS and take with you and compare to whatever you are using now.

But your environmental things that affect you currently, will be affecting ground based WAAS even more, IMO.

Also realize the satellites are not geosynchronous. So at different times of the year there may or may not be enough at an optimal position to give you a reliable fix in your terrain and surrounding structures.
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Old 09-18-21, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
Also realize the satellites are not geosynchronous. So at different times of the year there may or may not be enough at an optimal position to give you a reliable fix in your terrain and surrounding structures.
What?

https://link.springer.com/chapter/10...-642-72011-6_2

Thanks to this particular revolution period essentially the same satellite configuration is observed at a given point on the surface of the Earth at the same time of the day on consecutive days (the constellation repeats itself almost perfectly after 23h56mUT).
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Old 09-18-21, 11:17 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
What are you what'ng? Do you think that when considering terrain, structures and surrounding foliage that the satellites are always in the ideal position and that they never move from that?
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Old 09-18-21, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Iride01 View Post
What are you what'ng? Do you think that when considering terrain, structures and surrounding foliage that the satellites are always in the ideal position and that they never move from that?
This is a better description of the issue.

Sure, it’s dependent on foliage (which you didn’t mention at all) but foliage is not always dependent on time of year.

Structure and terrain aren’t dependent on time of year.

Talking about time of year without mentioning why it matters is weird.
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Old 09-18-21, 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by exercion View Post
I get all that, without going into my background in GPS systems. My question was really a simple: are any cycle computers WAAS enabled? Never planned to get into the debate of why I would like that lol.
No, Garmin cycling computers don't have a WAAS option. Probably WAAS will drain the battery too quickly for cycling and since one is mainly on roads and marked trails the accuracy is good enough. Roadies and gravel riders aren't going to go looking for geocaches anyway, especially if they're on a Strava segment.

All Garmin handhelds have a WAAS option AFAIK. All Garmin handhelds have a cycling mount additional option so you can mount them on your handlebars and use it as a cycling computer at least for speed and location. I think this makes sense in the Garmin lineup given how the units are expected to be used.
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Old 09-20-21, 06:57 AM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Most current receivers can use more than one GNSS constellation: GPS+Glonass or GPS+Gallileo, which increases the number of satellites available (in good positions) to use.
The new ones use lots of networks, so GPS, Glonass, Galileo, Beidou, and QZSS.
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Old 09-20-21, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by chaadster View Post
The new ones use lots of networks, so GPS, Glonass, Galileo, Beidou, and QZSS.
Yeah, but I've only seen ones that let you use only two at a time.
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Old 09-20-21, 10:26 AM
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes View Post
No, Garmin cycling computers don't have a WAAS option. Probably WAAS will drain the battery too quickly for cycling and since one is mainly on roads and marked trails the accuracy is good enough. Roadies and gravel riders aren't going to go looking for geocaches anyway, especially if they're on a Strava segment.

All Garmin handhelds have a WAAS option AFAIK. All Garmin handhelds have a cycling mount additional option so you can mount them on your handlebars and use it as a cycling computer at least for speed and location. I think this makes sense in the Garmin lineup given how the units are expected to be used.
Yep, makes total sense, and I figured that no one did, but asked in case some do, or there was a one off that had it, etc. especially given Garmin's expertise in that area.

Eric
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Old 09-20-21, 12:24 PM
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Yeah, but I've only seen ones that let you use only two at a time.
HmmI guess some have network selection menus, but do those that dont, e.g. Wahoo Bolt, which claims to use 5 networks, switch automatically between the GNSS options? Id assume it picks which system to use based on the number of satellites visible, and would not expect that any use two different systems at the same time; how would they rectify the signal data (i.e. decide which system is correct)? My guess would be that chipset, processing speed and capacity, and power usage would be factors determining whether a computer limits satellite search to only a couple networks, or automatically searches for the most robust network from among all those it can use.

I know this is a little OT, but this is also an extra geeky GPS question!
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Old 09-21-21, 07:44 AM
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Originally Posted by exercion View Post
Yeah as the thread title says. Does anyone know if there are any GPS cyclecomputers that are WAAS/SBAS capable? Raw readings in my area can be a bit hit or miss, and I'd like to improve my accuracy.

Eric
Originally Posted by exercion View Post
Thanks, yes I use a speed sensor, and yes that is because of the shaky signal in the mountains and forests here. My issue is purely one of location, and yes it's as much of a nerdy sort of thing as it sounds LOL.

Eric
My Garmin 64 is not a "cycling" computer, but I use that GPS on my bikes. They make a handlebar mount for it.

I leave Glonass and WAAS turned off for better battery life. If you are interested, check the manual for that GPS, I think the manual is on-line. I do not know if that model is still sold, Garmin keeps changing models over time.



I also have a separate bike computer with wheel and cadence sensors. And a separate heart rate monitor. So, do not let that confuse you in the photo.

The Garmin 64 has a pretty good antennae, if you are having trouble getting signal in forest, perhaps a GPS with a better antennae is the solution.
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Old 09-28-21, 05:24 PM
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GPS modes

Garmin Edge 830 offers the following modes.

GPS
GPS + GLONASS
GPS + GALILEO

Not sure why I'd need to change the more, it's defaulted to GPS + GLONASS

Barry
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