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A Tale of Two GPS

Old 05-04-22, 11:57 AM
  #26  
Steve B.
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
​​​​​​Where? This is a fairly detailed, low level discussion about how things move under the hood. I'm not aware of a good reference for that kind of info. Might prove useful in the future. 🙂
Garmin has a support page explaining this, it states among other things "It only affects the data that is written to the file for storage on the device "

https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?fa...mK0P6l20SgpW28
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Old 05-04-22, 01:05 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by Kai Winters View Post
Hmm possibly a defective unit or perhaps not set up correctly.
I had the 130+ and it worked great. I now have the 830 and it too works fantastic.
You do have to spend some time and effort learning how the devices work, how to customize the settings, screens, etc. to display what you want when you want it.
Age does not mean not knowing how to use technology. I'm 66 and have no trouble using or understanding today's technologies. Like anything it takes a bit of learning and practice to use.
There are many youtube videos showing to to set up, customize and use pretty much all devices that are in use. Most are easy to understand and follow along. Best of all you can stop, go back and rewatch the video over and over until you get it right.
Yeah, I am returning it. Must be defective.
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Old 05-04-22, 02:47 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Garmin has a support page explaining this, it states among other things "It only affects the data that is written to the file for storage on the device "

https://support.garmin.com/en-US/?fa...mK0P6l20SgpW28
Gotcha, thanks. I was kind of hoping you had found something more detailed about how the data moves around, but in the other hand you can't get a bite credible source on this. 🙂

​​​​​​They should really get rid of smart recording at this point.
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Old 05-04-22, 03:24 PM
  #29  
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Why stay with Garmin at all? I have a doctorate in computer science and am comfortable using many complex technologies. After buying an Edge 520 and regretting it every single day, I switched to Wahoo and will never buy another Garmin bike computer. The Garmin UI is abominable and I don't care if they ever learn how to design a simpler one because competitors like Wahoo have already figured it out years ago.
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Old 05-04-22, 04:01 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Why stay with Garmin at all?
I love my Garmin watch! I'm probably going to buy the new one tomorrow. Why would I want to give something so awesome up?
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Old 05-04-22, 04:26 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I love my Garmin watch! I'm probably going to buy the new one tomorrow. Why would I want to give something so awesome up?
Why do you think this thread is about your watch preference?
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Old 05-04-22, 04:53 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Why stay with Garmin at all?
I would/will because I have multiple Garmin devices, running watches and a bike computer. Although I agree that Garmin could do better with software, the hardware has never let me down.
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Old 05-04-22, 05:51 PM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Why stay with Garmin at all? I have a doctorate in computer science and am comfortable using many complex technologies. After buying an Edge 520 and regretting it every single day, I switched to Wahoo and will never buy another Garmin bike computer. The Garmin UI is abominable and I don't care if they ever learn how to design a simpler one because competitors like Wahoo have already figured it out years ago.
Interesting, as outside of the use of a smartphone for initial setup, I didnt find my Bolt any more user friendly than the 3 Garmins I've owned. In terms of day to day uses on the device, I do find my Hammerhead Karoo 2 to be better (slighlty) than Garmin. HH is much more proactive at pushing OS updates that actually streamline the user interaction for settings and stuff, something that I did not see from Wahoo or Garmin. My experience is once you "get" the Garmin method, its not hard to do anything. But I understand this is just my own personal experience, YMMV,
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Old 05-04-22, 06:08 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Why do you think this thread is about your watch preference?
This thread is about issues datlas need to talk through. And then you asked why stay with Garmin at all, and I answered you. Now you seem to be asking why I answered the question you asked? I'm sticking with Garmin because their products have worked very well for me, I can't speak for anyone else, but there's a robust market out there. 🙂
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Old 05-04-22, 06:20 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
My experience is once you "get" the Garmin method, its not hard to do anything. But I understand this is just my own personal experience, YMMV,
Please explain from memory how to do these things on an Edge: a) load a route, b) choose a route, c) choose a different route when you've already set one, d) check battery level, e) zoom the map, f) add and remove data fields. From memory, I am certain that every one of those tasks make no sense on a 520.

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
This thread is about issues datlas need to talk through.
Issues that datlas has with Garmin bike computers. Not watches.
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Old 05-04-22, 06:22 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Interesting, as outside of the use of a smartphone for initial setup, I didnt find my Bolt any more user friendly than the 3 Garmins I've owned. In terms of day to day uses on the device, I do find my Hammerhead Karoo 2 to be better (slighlty) than Garmin. HH is much more proactive at pushing OS updates that actually streamline the user interaction for settings and stuff, something that I did not see from Wahoo or Garmin. My experience is once you "get" the Garmin method, its not hard to do anything. But I understand this is just my own personal experience, YMMV,
​​​​​​Kind of a segue here, but I went in and got out early today and just finished an after work ride. Today the watch asked me for the perceived effort when I saved the activity. 🙂 It's a lot easier to say right then and there vs going back and editing later, nice little touch. I feel like the Fenix line has been continually improving for years, it's pretty refined and mature at this point.

But yeah, the settings. There are a billion things you can tinker with, it's just plain hard to give people that many choices and keep it manageable. But it's also important to some people to be able to change every one of them for some reason or another.

I'm looking forward to seeing how it works to be able to change data fields and pages from the phone. I'm also glad to be able to do it directly on the watch and on the Edge when I don't have reception or my battery died.
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Old 05-04-22, 06:24 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Issues that datlas has with Garmin bike computers. Not watches.
Ok? You asked why people are sticking with Garmin at all. Maybe it wasn't clear from context that it's a Garmin watch. It's a Garmin, I'm sticking with it, the reasons why are a legitimate answer to the question you asked. Shrug.
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Old 05-04-22, 06:28 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Ok? You asked why people are sticking with Garmin at all. Maybe it wasn't clear from context that it's a Garmin watch. It's a Garmin, I'm sticking with it, the reasons why are a legitimate answer to the question you asked. Shrug.
I was replying to datlas' thread about datlas' dilemma. Didn't realize that I had to quote an OP in order to give my opinion, just because the rest of the thread may be derailed by people who think everything is about them.
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Old 05-04-22, 07:57 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Please explain from memory how to do these things on an Edge: a) load a route, b) choose a route, c) choose a different route when you've already set one, d) check battery level, e) zoom the map, f) add and remove data fields. From memory, I am certain that every one of those tasks make no sense on a 520.

Issues that datlas has with Garmin bike computers. Not watches.
Load route you go to Navigation, select a route and start it. Choose route from the list in Navigation of routes you have downloaded. If I need to download, I back out, go to iQ, RWGPS app, it queries the routes I have there, I select and download. Choose different, I go to the map of the route Im using and press STOP, THEN Igo to main screen and to Nav. and select whatever route I want next. Battery level I cam swipe down and see, Its on the primary data screen, or i can configure Battery on any data screen. Changing data screens is in Activity Profiles, Data Screens, and just edit the screens

Note everything I just typed is from memory, Ive done all the above many times, i don't need to pull out my phone for anything. Hammerhead works the same way, no using a phone, its all on the device, arguably easier is its all Android based, but really its all in the learning of how the unit works, like everything else technology based,
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Old 05-04-22, 09:56 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Load route you go to Navigation, select a route and start it. Choose route from the list in Navigation of routes you have downloaded. If I need to download, I back out, go to iQ, RWGPS app, it queries the routes I have there, I select and download. Choose different, I go to the map of the route Im using and press STOP, THEN Igo to main screen and to Nav. and select whatever route I want next. Battery level I cam swipe down and see, Its on the primary data screen, or i can configure Battery on any data screen. Changing data screens is in Activity Profiles, Data Screens, and just edit the screens

Note everything I just typed is from memory, Ive done all the above many times, i don't need to pull out my phone for anything. Hammerhead works the same way, no using a phone, its all on the device, arguably easier is its all Android based, but really its all in the learning of how the unit works, like everything else technology based,
So you've never used a non-touchscreen Garmin Edge. Your experience with an even more expensive Edge than the problematic 530 is not going to be helpful to the OP.

I don't feel like explaining the painfully excessive sequence of button presses required for everything I mentioned in my last post but then found this write-up that does a much better job than I'd have patience to do anyway.
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Old 05-05-22, 05:06 AM
  #41  
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After thinking about it some more, run the Varia through an app on your phone. Carry/use a battery pack if needed for the phone. Maybe that frees up battery time for the bike computer. Try to get the mapping sorted out on current bike computer. If that doesn't work, then on to an even more expensive bike computer with even more features you don't need/want.
I have a similar situation. I have a GPS watch I use. Phone is in middle jersey pocket. The watch is not a Garmin. I don't want to engage in the Garmin ecosystem. I'm thinking about a Varia. If I get one it means using it through a Garmin watch or something mounted on the bars. The phone would work, but reduce battery life. So would the Garmin bundle display unit. I don't care for either solution. I'll probably end up emitting a beep myself every time I hear a car. That will simulate the Varia and determine if it's going to annoy me or not.

Full disclosure: For me, Garmin is one of the Evil Empire companies in line with Apple, Trek, Nike, etc. Why? I'd have to think about it. Maybe it's tied to Lance. Maybe not.

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Old 05-05-22, 06:00 AM
  #42  
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https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/06/...stability.html
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Old 05-05-22, 08:38 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Why stay with Garmin at all?
If your interest is limited to just cycling, alternatives make more sense. For people with wider interests, Garmin provides many more options (and they work similarly).

Originally Posted by surak View Post
I have a doctorate in computer science and am comfortable using many complex technologies. After buying an Edge 520 and regretting it every single day, I switched to Wahoo and will never buy another Garmin bike computer. The Garmin UI is abominable and I don't care if they ever learn how to design a simpler one...
This is a case where saying less would be saying more. Thousands of people (without "doctorates in computer science") manage to deal with it. It's not that hard. Wahoo might do a better job of it but they also had no established behavior that might make sense to follow.

Originally Posted by surak View Post
... because competitors like Wahoo have already figured it out years ago.
Well, actually, these competitors have just fairly recently matched what Garmin provided 10+ years ago. (The Karoo and the Wahoo units were not very good when they were released and it took both companies to get useful.)

Originally Posted by surak View Post
Issues that datlas has with Garmin bike computers. Not watches.
As a matter of fact, the UI of the watches is very similar to the non-touchsreen Edges. So, people's experience with the Garmin watches isn't irrelevant.

Originally Posted by surak View Post
...found this write-up that does a much better job than I'd have patience to do anyway.
That is an interesting write-up. He's wrong about two things: the Garmin's use normal USB cables and you can have two data fields on the map screen (and even 4 or 6 with a custom datafield).

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Old 05-05-22, 08:55 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by Steve B. View Post
Load route you go to Navigation, select a route and start it. Choose route from the list in Navigation of routes you have downloaded. If I need to download, I back out, go to iQ, RWGPS app, it queries the routes I have there, I select and download. Choose different, I go to the map of the route Im using and press STOP, THEN Igo to main screen and to Nav. and select whatever route I want next. Battery level I cam swipe down and see, Its on the primary data screen, or i can configure Battery on any data screen. Changing data screens is in Activity Profiles, Data Screens, and just edit the screens

Note everything I just typed is from memory, Ive done all the above many times, i don't need to pull out my phone for anything. Hammerhead works the same way, no using a phone, its all on the device, arguably easier is its all Android based, but really its all in the learning of how the unit works, like everything else technology based,
The touchscreen makes the Edges easier to use. That's not quite relevant as a reply to how hard the non-touchscreen models are to use).

The button-only ones aren't that hard to use (unless you have a doctorate, I guess) but there can be lots of button presses to get things done. There are also options that the touchscreen devices have that the non-touchscreen ones lack).

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Old 05-05-22, 09:39 AM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
This is a case where saying less would be saying more. Thousands of people (without "doctorates in computer science") manage to deal with it. It's not that hard. Wahoo might do a better job of it but they also no established behavior that might make sense to follow.
Saying it's not that hard because people manage to "deal with it" isn't exactly a strong argument. My experience is backed up by pretty much every head-to-head review I've ever read. The Garmin simply takes more unnecessary effort for a lot of common functions. It absolutely requires more cognitive load to interact with, which is a big deal when not just pulled over but actually riding. EDIT: forgot to point out that the OP even wrote the same. He should just "deal with it," yeah?

Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
Well, actually, these competitors have just fairly recently matched what Garmin provided 10+ years ago. (The Karoo and the Wahoo units were not very good when they were released and it took both companies to get useful.)
Well actually it's been years since I replaced my Garmin with a Bolt that was immediately more usable. I'm making the bold assumption that datlas doesn't plan to travel back in time to buy a replacement bike computer. Looking at the 530 button layout and manual I can see that Garmin's made almost no progress on their UI. I guess they're starting to make more things available through the phone app... which just matches what Wahoo has had for years.
Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
That is an interesting write-up. He's wrong about two things: the Garmin's use normal USB cables and you can have two data fields on the map screen (and even 4 or 6 with a custom datafield).
And there are capabilities that Wahoo's added since like custom alerts and their version of climb tracking that aren't in the write-up. But features aside, everything he wrote about the poor ergonomics and non-intuitiveness of the Garmin is spot on.

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Old 05-05-22, 10:13 AM
  #46  
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You seen really hostile, @surak. Maybe dial it down a little. It's not the end of the world that cyclists are happy with things they bought.
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Old 05-05-22, 10:18 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
I am open to suggestions. I am willing to consider a non-garmin product.
Datlas- since my original reply to your thread has been interpreted by the Garmin Defense Force as a call to action, distracting from solving your dilemma, I figure I'll just have to explicitly suggest a Wahoo Elemnt Bolt for your consideration. There may be other computers out there which do a good job, but I only have direct experience with Wahoo and Garmin.

The Bolt has a very easy UI on the computer and in the Elemnt companion app that you use to change settings such as downloading maps (no region-specific nonsense), auto-lap is turned off by default, customized alerts are plain and easy to see (and you can also mute for the duration of a ride with one button if it comes up, although there are no preprogrammed custom alerts to annoy you anyway), and solid Varia support that also includes the option of flashing the front LEDS in addition to audible alerting. There isn't a volume setting for the alerts, although they're loud enough for me that I can hear others' on group rides and during descents.

There's the original Bolt and the v2. Honestly the original Bolt would be my recommendation because it doesn't seem like you need anything from the new one, but even if you find NOS perhaps you risk some battery degradation.
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Old 05-05-22, 10:33 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Saying it's not that hard because people manage to "deal with it" isn't exactly a strong argument. My experience is backed up by pretty much every head-to-head review I've ever read. The Garmin simply takes more unnecessary effort for a lot of common functions. It absolutely requires more cognitive load to interact with, which is a big deal when not just pulled over but actually riding.
It's not as difficult as you make it out to be.

Originally Posted by surak View Post
Looking at the 530 button layout and manual I can see that Garmin's made almost no progress on their UI.
Again, it's not as difficult as you make it out to be. One reason for Garmin not to keep changing the UI is that it's fairly standard (and has been for a while).

Originally Posted by surak View Post
Well actually it's been years since I replaced my Garmin with a Bolt that was immediately more usable.
The 520 was kind of old when the Bolt was released.

520 released 7/2015

https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2015/07/...-edge-520.html

Bolt released 3/2017

https://themtblab.com/2017/03/introd...emnt-bolt.html

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Old 05-05-22, 10:38 AM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by njkayaker View Post
It's not as difficult as you make it out to be.
Sure, it's just me.

Originally Posted by datlas View Post
One good thing about the 530, its battery life is fine. But otherwise I HATE the thing. The buttons and user interface are not intuitive (very different from the 130).
Or not.
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Old 05-05-22, 10:44 AM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
Sure, it's just me.
Or not.
Datlas admitted to being "technologically challenged", if I recall. There's nothing wrong with that and that doesn't mean all products would be suited for him. It also doesn't really mean there's a problem with the products that aren't suited to him.

To include yourself in the same class would be admitting that your "doctorate" doesn't mean much and that you are "technologically challenged".
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