Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Electronics, Lighting, & Gadgets
Reload this Page >

Hammerhead and Shimano no more.

Notices
Electronics, Lighting, & Gadgets HRM, GPS, MP3, HID. Whether it's got an acronym or not, here's where you'll find discussions on all sorts of tools, toys and gadgets.

Hammerhead and Shimano no more.

Old 05-26-22, 11:32 PM
  #26  
tempocyclist
Full Member
 
tempocyclist's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2021
Location: Australia
Posts: 435

Bikes: 2002 Trek 5200 (US POSTAL), 2020 Canyon Aeroad SL

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 144 Post(s)
Liked 324 Times in 165 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
What are people who own a K2 and a Di2 supposed to do? Never update their unit to preserve this functionality? ​​​​​​
If I owned a Hammerhead computer and Di2 that's exactly what I would do (assuming they're not forced automatically).

That said, I do have a Garmin computer and Di2, but I've never tried to set up any of the Di2 metrics on screen. I should really have a play around.
tempocyclist is offline  
Old 05-27-22, 05:57 AM
  #27  
seypat
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Posts: 7,191
Mentioned: 66 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2431 Post(s)
Liked 1,494 Times in 968 Posts
Not a good look for the industry in general. Maybe Shimano is attempting to align themselves with Specialized.

Or maybe another fitness tech company. How big is Wahoo? Or Polar for instance? Maybe the Shimano portfolio is about to get larger.

Last edited by seypat; 05-27-22 at 06:05 AM.
seypat is online now  
Old 05-27-22, 09:27 AM
  #28  
Iride01
MotuekaCascadeChinook
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 10,957

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 42 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 4417 Post(s)
Liked 2,962 Times in 2,062 Posts
Could be anything. Maybe Shimano doesn't feel their agreements with Hammerhead for name use of Di2 and such cover all the implications SRAM brings to the party. All of the above might be in play too.

Perhaps at a later date they'll iron everything out in a new agreement and the world will be at peace again. <grin>
Iride01 is offline  
Old 05-27-22, 09:34 AM
  #29  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,180
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 628 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times in 473 Posts
Originally Posted by tempocyclist View Post
If I owned a Hammerhead computer and Di2 that's exactly what I would do (assuming they're not forced automatically).

That said, I do have a Garmin computer and Di2, but I've never tried to set up any of the Di2 metrics on screen. I should really have a play around.
I did my one and only firmware upgrade to Di2 in anticipation of doing this, but I lost interest when I realized it would be a net drain on the battery (oh, the irony) and I would have to buy some extra parts. I've never missed not having this. I shift by feel, anyway.
Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 05-28-22, 01:43 PM
  #30  
Polaris OBark
Dirt Roadie
 
Polaris OBark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2022
Posts: 1,180
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 628 Post(s)
Liked 785 Times in 473 Posts
I just looked at DC Ray Maker's video review of this:


Polaris OBark is offline  
Old 05-29-22, 08:27 AM
  #31  
JohnJ80
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,566

Bikes: N+1=5

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 837 Post(s)
Liked 196 Times in 147 Posts
Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Stupid business move on the part of Shimano. It might even be a violation of consumer law in some regions, especially since it sounds like they are forcing HH to remove functionality in extant devices that the consumer paid for upon purchase, with a firmware update.
Yep. It's a stupid move on Shimano's part. Probably some junior product manager that's a little over caffeinated. This *might* have made sense a number of years ago when Shimano had a clear advantage, but it's pretty even now especially in the electronic shifting market where, arguably, SRAM might even have a significant advantage with their wireless eTap. You can pull these types of shenanigans when you're the dominant market leader but not when you're in a pitched battle for tech dominance.

Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Karoo owners are losing:
  • the ability to see their battery level
  • shifter mode display
  • front and rear derailleur indications
  • ability to cycle through the data screens using the buttons hidden in the hoods
The first one is kind of a pain because the Di2 itself has a bad way of showing this.
I'd say the main loss are your second and third bullets with the shifter displays. The buttons, while they might be nice, are only found on the DA shifters and not on the Ultegra ones. I'd have to believe that the Ui2 drivetrain far outnumbers the Di2 DA ones. I have a Karoo (which I really like) and fortunately I replaced all my Di2 with eTap a few years ago. That said, Hammerhead supported Di2 before eTap when they introduced the electronic shifting support and it wasn't a huge deal but nice to have those features when they showed up for eTap.

I'd have to say that I like the Karoo far better as a bike computer over Garmin than I value the things that are being lost. So if I had to pick, knowing what I know now, I'd still go the same route. But, if I were trying to do a paper evaluation before buying a bike computer, this might give me pause. But I think more importantly, if I were making a bike purchase, this would more heavily influence my choice of drivetrain and make me much less likely to buy something with a Shimano drivetrain.

Originally Posted by billridesbikes View Post
I believe in order to make the Di2 integration work with the computer you have to license an encryption key from Shimano to unlock the data and make it readable because they use a special data format different from SRAM or Campagnolo which are standard ANT profile. Like most software licenses it can be revoked based on whatever the original agreement was (i.e. not competing directly with Shimano). Using the key without an agreement would be a theft of IP, and SRAM would probably lose in court.

Edit: Added to say DC Rainmaker has a good summary. It does seem like a dumb move by Shimano.

Note that when you starting using your cycling computer (brand doesn’t matter here) you probably agreed that you did not own any of the software on the device but only had a license to use it and the company retained the right to modify or change it as they see fit. Might be that Shimano will try to shake down the cycle computer companies for more money for this license. Many of these disputes are resolved with someone coughing up more cash.
Ray Maker (DCRainmaker) ripped Shimano within minutes of the announcement coming out. He pretty much said that he'd not look at a Di2 bike because he didn't think Shimano could be trusted for long term support based on this. That's about as strong of a condemnation as I've heard him put out on almost anything. Especially noteworthy is because it's after one of the giants in the bike business. But, he's right - it's a dick move and really isn't in Shimano's long term interest. I've been a Shimano fanboy for decades and this really gives me pause.

Hopefully that over-caffeinated product manager has some adult supervision straighten this out. Not a good move.
JohnJ80 is offline  
Old 05-29-22, 11:18 AM
  #32  
surak
Senior Member
 
surak's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Seattle
Posts: 1,743

Bikes: Specialized Roubaix, Canyon Inflite AL SLX, Priority Continuum Onyx, Santana Vision, Kent Dual-Drive Tandem

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 770 Post(s)
Liked 624 Times in 360 Posts
Originally Posted by JohnJ80 View Post
I'd say the main loss are your second and third bullets with the shifter displays. The buttons, while they might be nice, are only found on the DA shifters and not on the Ultegra ones.
Wrong. Last two generation Ultegra Di2 shifters have the hidden hood buttons.
surak is offline  
Likes For surak:
Old 05-29-22, 12:21 PM
  #33  
JohnJ80
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,566

Bikes: N+1=5

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 837 Post(s)
Liked 196 Times in 147 Posts
Originally Posted by surak View Post
Wrong. Last two generation Ultegra Di2 shifters have the hidden hood buttons.
I wasn't aware of that - all happened after I jettisoned Ultegra Di2. Thanks.

Either way, probably an issue for some (undoubtedly) but almost certainly not for most Karoo users. The most significant loss still remains the shifting fields as I had said before. I follow this closely on the Karoo forums and the whole button issue is virtually never mentioned.
JohnJ80 is offline  
Old 05-29-22, 12:42 PM
  #34  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 22,912
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17548 Post(s)
Liked 9,458 Times in 5,337 Posts
I heard a rumour this was a lawyer or investor or something putting a foot down, saying Shimano can't share private information about how their electronic drivetrain works with a company (owned by another company) that makes electronic drivetrains. I have no way to know if this is true, and it seems a little goofy since SRAM is shipping them, they're not trying to figure out how to make one and eager to steal the secret.

If true, that's not a minor licensing issue that would be solved by more money.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Old 05-29-22, 12:44 PM
  #35  
Seattle Forrest
Senior Member
 
Seattle Forrest's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 22,912
Mentioned: 80 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 17548 Post(s)
Liked 9,458 Times in 5,337 Posts
Personally, I'm disappointed that Shimano is being a bad citizen. But I've been happy with all of my Shimano bikes. If I was somehow forced to only ride a SRAM bike, I would just take up running instead.

I think this will be a minor blip that people (except KDi2 uses) will forget in a month. People don't choose their drive train to fit their computer.
Seattle Forrest is offline  
Likes For Seattle Forrest:
Old 06-02-22, 11:17 AM
  #36  
AlgarveCycling
Full Member
 
Join Date: May 2020
Location: The Algarve, Portugal
Posts: 425

Bikes: Wilier Zero.6 (2019), Trek Madone SLR 6 (2020), KTM Scarp Sonic (2019)

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 164 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 163 Posts
It's a shame Shimano have taken this stance, I fully agree with DC Rainmaker. Personally however, it makes zero difference to me - I don't use those functions; I don't need my computer to tell me what gear I am in, for example, so my Shimano-equipped bike isn't going to suffer and while my SRAM-equipped bike will still have those functions, I don't care. I have never checked to see the battery levels either, I simply charge them regularly.

On the subject of updates though, they aren't all about corrections to fix things that have come to light with general public use. HH update 2x a month with functionality upgrades that make it better each time. When the HH2 was launched, it was a nice unit as it was, I preferred it to my Garmin 530. It was comparable to its competition at its price-point immediately. Since then, it has had many firmware updates - thanks in part to it being Android based - that have improved the device immensely.

For example, HH have released the latest update today, and, besides the expected DI2 removal, it adds this, among a few other things for crits etc :
  • Auto-Lap Pins can be placed whenever you press the lap button, as well as at the start of recording. A new lap will be marked whenever you ride through those points again in the same ride.
  • Unique to Karoo, Auto-Lap Pins that are placed while moving will only trigger if you ride through them in the same direction, preventing incorrect laps being marked if the course doubles back on itself.

I've never been interested in software updates until relatively recently thanks to two products I own - the HH2 and its twice monthly upgrades (they are upgrades) and my Canon R5 camera where Canon have released some great updates to improve AF.


AlgarveCycling is offline  
Old 06-02-22, 12:03 PM
  #37  
JohnJ80
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 4,566

Bikes: N+1=5

Mentioned: 21 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 837 Post(s)
Liked 196 Times in 147 Posts
Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
Personally, I'm disappointed that Shimano is being a bad citizen. But I've been happy with all of my Shimano bikes. If I was somehow forced to only ride a SRAM bike, I would just take up running instead.

I think this will be a minor blip that people (except KDi2 uses) will forget in a month. People don't choose their drive train to fit their computer.
Largely agree that people don't pick their drivetrain because of the computer. This move on Shimano's part though does give me serious pause if this is their new corporate strategy that they will not support anyone with competitive products. I'm betting that it is because Shimano has typically been pretty benign as a competitor instead choosing to compete on features and quality. If this is where they are going now, then I'd expect to see shortly that they will cut off support for Garmin, Wahoo, and Stages for starters. All have competing products too. The question, I suppose, is going to be how far will they take this and where do they draw the line. They haven't said and until they do, I'd also agree with Ray Maker and Shane Miller that Shimano is a risky choice at present.

I was a Shimano fanboy for decades. I wound up with eTap bikes because I converted an older mech bike to electronic shifting and eTap was far and away the cleaner choice for that (no need to run wires in a frame not set up for it). I was pretty surprised how well it worked and how much I liked it that I converted my Ultegra Di2 bike over to eTap when I got a great deal on a groupset. Anyhow, that all surprised me greatly and I have to say I've been pretty happy with it.

Originally Posted by AlgarveCycling View Post
It's a shame Shimano have taken this stance, I fully agree with DC Rainmaker. Personally however, it makes zero difference to me - I don't use those functions; I don't need my computer to tell me what gear I am in, for example, so my Shimano-equipped bike isn't going to suffer and while my SRAM-equipped bike will still have those functions, I don't care. I have never checked to see the battery levels either, I simply charge them regularly.
Yep. I'm solidly in the "this is Shimano's fault" camp on this too. At this point until we get more clarity, I don't trust them. The whole bike component industry seems to be working hard to withdraw from standards and come up with proprietary pieces to capture more business. Integrated stems/bars, proprietary seat posts, bottom brackets, etc... seems like this could be part of that. Shimano did just buy Pioneer power meters a couple of years ago which to me indicates that they are pretty serious with owning that and tying that to their cranks for incremental sales.

For once though, I managed to find my way to not get whacked by these industry moves. Usually, I'm the guy that finagles my way into the worst possible position for a consumer. Somehow, I managed to tiptoe between the raindrops on this one.
JohnJ80 is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service - Do Not Sell My Personal Information -

Copyright © 2021 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.