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Hammerhead and Shimano no more.

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Hammerhead and Shimano no more.

Old 05-26-22, 11:34 AM
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Steve B.
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Hammerhead and Shimano no more.

Apparently, Shimano iis not happy that SRAM purchased Hammerhead and has told Hammerhead to discontinue the capability of the K1 & K2 devices to interface with Di2. HH will change on the next update to lose the ability. Sucks If I were HH I would just ignore it.

Shimano cuts Hammerhead integrations after SRAM acquisition | Cyclingnews
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Old 05-26-22, 11:50 AM
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Old 05-26-22, 11:50 AM
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Shimano's decision is petty and bad for customers, plain and simple.

I have Di2 and use an Elemnt Bolt bike computer; now I'm wondering if/when Shimano will cut off Wahoo too. Will definitely make me hesitant to get Di2 on future bike purchases with the spectre of pulled support hanging over any brand that Shimano decides they don't like.
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Old 05-26-22, 11:53 AM
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Stupid business move on the part of Shimano. It might even be a violation of consumer law in some regions, especially since it sounds like they are forcing HH to remove functionality in extant devices that the consumer paid for upon purchase, with a firmware update.
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Old 05-26-22, 12:46 PM
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I'm glad I didn't buy a Karoo 2.

What are people who own a K2 and a Di2 supposed to do? Never update their unit to preserve this functionality? Do without a feature they paid for, which probably factored into their decision to buy?

Is it possible for uses to rectify, like with Garmin Connect IQ? ​​​​​​
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Old 05-26-22, 12:51 PM
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If SRAM was doing this, it probably would be illegal, but at least the motive would be rational (why offer functionality useful to your competitor?). But I can't see any reason (apart from being petty) for Shimano to force them to do it. I also don't understand how they can force this.
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Old 05-26-22, 12:58 PM
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That is a dirty move to make. Is Shimano trying to shrivel up? They might be on the right track if they are!

I get that updates are a thing needed, but how many are needed after the product was released to the public for initial product purpose? Not for updates to support afterthought features or other product compatibility.
After so many months (maybe a couple of years) I would expect any updates pushed out to a device like such wouldn't be a real need... & if it is, then the company really has some sloppy R&D.
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Old 05-26-22, 01:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul View Post
After so many months (maybe a couple of years) I would expect any updates pushed out to a device like such wouldn't be a real need...
This is hugely expensive to do and HammerHead isn't paying programmers, testers, IT, and support people just for the fun of it.
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Old 05-26-22, 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
This is hugely expensive to do and HammerHead isn't paying programmers, testers, IT, and support people just for the fun of it.
I am asking about the relevancies for updates after the product has been in the hands of the public for 12+ months already. Shouldn't critical updates for something like these bicycle computers already be ironed out? Any update after a certain point should not bring about a loss of capability that it once had (That's my opinion) as it has already been mention, the consumer already paid for it.
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Old 05-26-22, 01:23 PM
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Updates are regular for Garmins, too, not just the Karoo2.
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Old 05-26-22, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by Troul View Post
12+ months already. Shouldn't critical updates for something like these bicycle computers already be ironed out?
For a table or a chair, sure. For a computer, no.

Edit to add: it sounds like this should arrive for customers on June 2. If you own a Karoo you're welcome to not run the update.

Last edited by Seattle Forrest; 05-26-22 at 01:34 PM.
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Old 05-26-22, 03:26 PM
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Totally naive question. I used Di2 on a rental bike once. It was cool. I have a bike computer (not HH). Why do I care that the Di2 and HH can talk to each other? Am I shifting gears with the HH, or is it to just see what gear I'm in? If the latter, is that feature really that helpful? Asking because I have no idea.
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Old 05-26-22, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by pennpaul View Post
Totally naive question. I used Di2 on a rental bike once. It was cool. I have a bike computer (not HH). Why do I care that the Di2 and HH can talk to each other? Am I shifting gears with the HH, or is it to just see what gear I'm in? If the latter, is that feature really that helpful? Asking because I have no idea.
If you have a Di2 shifter with the "extra" button, you can use it to change the display on the computer, and the computer will display what gear you are in, what charge remains on your Di2 battery, and stuff like that.

Hammerhead Karoo users will, providing they do actually update the firmware on the date it is released, lose the ability to see their battery level, shifter mode, front and rear derailleur indications and also they will no longer be able to cycle through the data screens using the buttons hidden in the hoods.
https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/shi...m-acquisition/
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Old 05-26-22, 03:34 PM
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Originally Posted by pennpaul View Post
Totally naive question. I used Di2 on a rental bike once. It was cool. I have a bike computer (not HH). Why do I care that the Di2 and HH can talk to each other? Am I shifting gears with the HH, or is it to just see what gear I'm in? If the latter, is that feature really that helpful? Asking because I have no idea.
Karoo owners are losing:
  • the ability to see their battery level
  • shifter mode display
  • front and rear derailleur indications
  • ability to cycle through the data screens using the buttons hidden in the hoods
The first one is kind of a pain because the Di2 itself has a bad way of showing this.
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Old 05-26-22, 03:42 PM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
If SRAM was doing this, it probably would be illegal, but at least the motive would be rational (why offer functionality useful to your competitor?). But I can't see any reason (apart from being petty) for Shimano to force them to do it. I also don't understand how they can force this.
I believe in order to make the Di2 integration work with the computer you have to license an encryption key from Shimano to unlock the data and make it readable because they use a special data format different from SRAM or Campagnolo which are standard ANT profile. Like most software licenses it can be revoked based on whatever the original agreement was (i.e. not competing directly with Shimano). Using the key without an agreement would be a theft of IP, and SRAM would probably lose in court.

Edit: Added to say DC Rainmaker has a good summary. It does seem like a dumb move by Shimano.

Note that when you starting using your cycling computer (brand doesn’t matter here) you probably agreed that you did not own any of the software on the device but only had a license to use it and the company retained the right to modify or change it as they see fit. Might be that Shimano will try to shake down the cycle computer companies for more money for this license. Many of these disputes are resolved with someone coughing up more cash.

Last edited by billridesbikes; 05-26-22 at 03:56 PM.
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Old 05-26-22, 03:59 PM
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I remember that exact sort of thing being said on page 4320 of the iTunes user agreement.
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Old 05-26-22, 04:37 PM
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Originally Posted by pennpaul View Post
Totally naive question. I used Di2 on a rental bike once. It was cool. I have a bike computer (not HH). Why do I care that the Di2 and HH can talk to each other? Am I shifting gears with the HH, or is it to just see what gear I'm in? If the latter, is that feature really that helpful? Asking because I have no idea.
The assorted displays on the device (Garmin, Hammerhead, Wahoo) can show what gear you are in. Very useful piece of information to have on the screen. You can also see battery life of the assorted components (or just main battery on Di2), as well, the top buttons on the Di2 shifters can switch screens on the device, also a useful function.
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Old 05-26-22, 05:23 PM
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Originally Posted by billridesbikes View Post
I believe in order to make the Di2 integration work with the computer you have to license an encryption key from Shimano to unlock the data and make it readable because they use a special data format different from SRAM or Campagnolo which are standard ANT profile. Like most software licenses it can be revoked based on whatever the original agreement was (i.e. not competing directly with Shimano). Using the key without an agreement would be a theft of IP, and SRAM would probably lose in court.
​​​​​​This is how a lot of consumer technology works. I would think if this was the case Shimano would be changing the key on a regular basis and wouldn't need to rely on HH to do programming and make a new release for them. But I've been wrong a lot on implementation details. 🙂
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Old 05-26-22, 05:40 PM
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It is one thing to no longer offer functionality, but it is quite different to remove functionality with a firmware update.

I suspect Shimano said they were no longer going to allow Hammerhead (now part of SRAM) to allow the Di2 display and control functionality in their new devices, in order to undercut SRAM's sales. Hammerhead/SRAM probably responded by saying "ok, if that is how youy want to play, we will delete it in our next firmware update for current users", which will screw Shimano and make them look like the bad guys.

This is yet another example of how the customer always wins with a Free Market(™).
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Old 05-26-22, 08:02 PM
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It felt ominous when SRAM bought HammerHead.
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Old 05-26-22, 08:11 PM
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Shimano chose not to take the high road on this one.
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Old 05-26-22, 08:31 PM
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[QUOTE=Troul;22520951]I am asking about the relevancies for updates after the product has been in the hands of the public for 12+ months already. Shouldn't critical updates for something like these bicycle computers already be ironed out? /QUOTE]

I've always presumed that such updates are needed, in part, to keep the computer's OS compatible with other systems such as Strava, ridewithgps, etc, as they are updated.

I'll probably be buying a new computer in the next few months, and I loooove the Di2 integration. So this makes my decision a bit easier -- no Hammerhead.
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Old 05-26-22, 10:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Polaris OBark View Post
Shimano chose not to take the high road on this one.
Which is dumb because when you get right down to it this only hurts Shimano customers.
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Old 05-26-22, 10:48 PM
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I saw GP Lama's video on this and it sounded like they hadn't renegotiated a new agreement. So, hopefully this will get worked out. Unless you know the details of the agreement, I don't think you can just assume Shimano is the bad guy. They might be making reasonable requests that Hammerhead doesn't want to agree to. I'm not defending Shimano either, simply because I have no idea what the issue is.

Clearly this is something that will hurt both parties, so they both have incentive to work this out. And Hammerhead's announcement may be an attempt to affect negotiations with Shimano as well as just a heads-up to their customers.
I don't have either a Hammerhead product or Shimano Di2, but if I did, I would be pissed it has come to this.
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Old 05-26-22, 11:29 PM
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pretty lame, likely by both parties.

i wonder what share of high end drivetrains are di2 VS what share of high end computers are hammerhead? iím guessing this hurts hammerhead way more than shimano, unless some eventual superior integration of eTap and karoo drive eTap sales up.
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