Yeah but my light meter tells you more about the light level than the spot meter in a camera Which will only tell you what it is setting it is choosing given aperature or shutter speed priority.

And where are you getting this information from your human eye?? Oh yeah, the pictures people are taking with thier cameras which have all sorts of different exposure characteristics based upon what?? Oh yeah thier light meters.

While a human eye is more sensitive. You can't look at something and reliably quantify it.

So I was thinking something along the lines of incident light readings at various distances from the light source. Taking readings a few degrees off center would be good for beam spread also. We could also do reflected spot readings off of an 18% grey card from the rider's position and move the card to the same points.

Might be more trouble than it's worth.

I have a light meter too and I tried a few months ago to compare different lights, it was next to useless. It doesn't measure reliably the quantity of light, let alone the quality.

A good way usually is to take a picture of a scene during the day, then one with a reference light, then lock it and take pictures of the other lights.

The quality of light certainly cannot be recorded that way. I have to wonder what light meter you were using if it couldn't reliably measure the quantity of light.

Maybe it needs new batteries.

Nah, cause we have a guy here who designs light sensors, he just uses that one to compare readings.

Can you explain this a little more? I have quite a few different types of lights. I guess a lot of forum members do. I have a good digital camera too. But I am not sure that I can do anything that is a good comparison. You probably remember the taillight pictures I took outside. That was taken with the camera on auto exposure. I assume auto exposure will just ruin a comparison.

But, what about an object at a certain distance, with a fixed exposure? Is this what you're getting at?

Of course if I compare 6 different lights to each other, you could see a relationship between all of my
lights, but that may have no comparison to another members photos.

edit post: The Lupine comparison photos. http://www.lupine.de/en/lighttest/lighttest.html

I can compare led's to 2.4w 4AA lights, to halogens, to different HIDs etc. But I would like to do something that makes sense when you compare it to another forum member's photos with some kind of common settings or environment etc..I have access to outside places that are dark enough and long enough, maybe some others need to keep it inside like allgoo19 ?

Did you go to the Lupine comparison photos in the dark? They gave some information about camera settings and the distance etc. I was thinking I could try and copy that to start with.

Or something easy for others to duplicate, as much as possible? Maybe there is no accurate way to compare photos from one member to another, just compare lights at one location?

It basically means if you want 100% accurate scientific information, a light meter's good as long as you get the entire scene in there, otherwise, a camera gets you close enough to get a relative feel of the differences between two or more lights if you don't want to measure it absolutely.

I'm thinking just a cardboard box on the ground at 25 - 50 -75 feet, or what ever distance away in a dark place. And putting the light on the bike each time to get the height the same. Then just putting the camera on the tripod at about the same height as my eyes if I sit on the bike. That's about it. That's the best you can do if it's going to be done in different locations. If this was repeated by others, it would help a little, not make it accurate, just better. I'm trying to find something that others could repeat. Maybe that's not worth it because of the huge amount of variables.

I thought you meant take one picture with one light and see where the auto exposure takes the camera, then lock it on that exposure and do the other lights?

I wouldnt rely on auto exposure. It depends on how your camera meter is set up (spot, partial, evaluative, etc) but if it sees more of the darkness, you're going to overexpose your light, and if it sees the bright spot of light, you're going to underexpose. I'd probably just manually set the exposure and view the LCD to get the scene as close as possible to what you see with your eyes.

Yeah just lock the exposure or manually set it. All you want to do is get a good idea of how much wider a beam is compared to another one and how much farther it is.
Or if you want an absolute value without comparing one light to another, use a light meter.

Good point, I didn't think about what type of meter in the camera. All that can probably be acomplished is a comparison of lights to each other at one location.



OK, that's what I thought. I think the photo is actually better info. for a person trying to select a light.

I'm not sure this is clear, so I just wanted to point out that the "11" and "16" in MR-11 and MR-16 lamps is not referring to wattage, it's referring to the diameter of the reflector. MR-11 lamps are 11/8" in diameter and MR-16 Lamps are 16/8" in diameter.

You can get almost any wattage of MR-16 Lamp from 5w/12v to 250w/240v.

I'm pretty sure MR stands for metallic reflector, but nowadays everyone makes the reflectors out of dichro glass because it's more efficient.

bk

All these talk and no samples.

Have you thought about posting photos of comparison? Any photos! People will tell you if they like it or not. That would be a beginning of the standardized test. Just post it.

As far as incident metering is concerned, it's a silly idea. Look at Super Spot light pattern. It looks flat and even but it still has about 3 stops difference from center to the edge of the target. Micro Halogen, 5 stops easily and you have to measure every inch of it. Incident metering is not designed for this kind of light but the lights that falls even on the subject like sunlight. Even if you do that tedious job and post the numbers, it's hard for the viewers to translate it in the real world view. Just try it once, people are going to tell you they don't like it and much prefer, photos where you can see where the intensity is high or low without explaining it.

[QUOTE=slvoid][Moderator Note: Since lights are so important in the winter, I'm making this a temporary sticky. Please post your bicycle light comments, suggestions, and questions here. For Home-made bike designs and questions, see Total Geekiness.]



Since so many people are starting to get lights for the fall and I was bored, I came up with this.


That'll teach you for permitting yourself to be bored. :D I do have a question, why nothing listed from Nightsun? They are still around and I've got several units that work fine after 10 years or more of use. One or two after some spectacular crashes. Check out their offerings here.

http://www.night-sun.com/htmldocs/civilian.html

how about the planet bike beamer 5? i had emailed them asking how the super spot compared to the cateye el500, and if it was water resistant and they downplayed the superspot in favor of the beamer- "However, I would suggest checking out our new Beamer 5. It is super compact and puts out a ton of light (though I don't know the exact candlepower.)". not like they'd actually give the candlepower to me or anybody else, like for the rest of their models.

and of course the only information google can find on this model is at the interbike product preview page:

I searched Beamer5, and only result I came up with was Beamer3. If it's a 5 LED version of Beamer3, and also the price indicates, it'd be close to Cateye EL300.

I don't have experience with EL300 but from some members posts, it's much weaker than 1w EL500. Also other members who have both Palnet Bike Super Spot and Cateye EL500(both are 1w LED), comparing them saying, they are quite similar in the intensity but EL 500 has tighter light pattern.

I just purchased a Lupine Passubio XC from Gretnabikes (only US distributor, I think) they put the 25W bulb from the Lupine Nightmare Pro in it for free. I don't have a camera so I can only tell you how it compares to the system I am replacing, which is a Niterider Digital Evoloution. The Lupine light is brighter in both the full power and the econo power modes the reserve mode is about as bright as the Niterider at full power. The Lupine li-on battery is about the size and weight of two 9V batteries. Altogether about half the weight of the Niterider system (although the Niterider used a NIHM battery). There is no comparing the quality, the Lupine system is in another league. At full power the battery will run an hour and a half (haven't timed it in econo mode) and has a reserve that gives you a few minutes. The Lupine attaches without any mounting bracket, making it easy to switch from one bike to another (I have 4 bikes and purchased three extra Niterider mounts to be able to switch the Niterider from one bike to another). The Niterider cost me $235 (not including the extra mounts) and the Lupine cost me $330, but I had to send the Niterider back (the whole system) to get the "smart" battery replaced (twice) and the third one still went wacky, that meant I went without lights for a month each time and the poor quality of the Niterider connectors sent me into total darkness five times while riding (for no aparent reason) when they came apart. I don't anticipate a repeat of those issues with the Lupine light. You can mix Lupine batteries from one model of light to another and from one year to another, the connectors are the same on all models and all years.

I'm pretty sure that there is nothing special about the L&M bulb, what they are doing is "over-volting," running a stock 6V halogen bulb at 7.2V.

There is an interesting article about watts vs. lumens here:
http://nordicgroup.us/s78/wattslumens.html

For me the most eye-popping thing is that a halogen bulb over-volted by 20%, like the L&M, can give more lumens per watt than a HID. The tradeoff is that bulb life suffers.

Here's another good article:
http://www.myra-simon.com/bike/lights.html

That's what I thought but since I couldn't find their bulbs anywhere, I'm tempted to think they're at least a bit special, plus I found similar bulbs that didn't quite fit and they indeed were designed for 10.8 volts.

As a professional lighting technician, I can affirm that this is incorrect. Incident meters are designed to measure the intensity of light at the point of the sensor, whether your source is broad and diffused or narrowly focussed.

What you really need to judge a headlight's effectiveness (electrical and durability considerations aside) are two pieces of data: beam characteristics (shape, falloff, etc) and intensity. Beam pattern photos at a standard distance and all shot at identical exposures are a good way to judge the former, and an incident lighting meter that gives you readings in footcandles is an excellent way to judge the latter. A good set of data might be to measure the distance from the fixture at which you get 2 footcandles in the brightest part of the beam.

I am going to disagree that beam photos tell you much of anything useful at all. All it tell you is that some guy at a agreed upon distance with an unknown camera, an unknown sensor/film, and an unknown lense used an aperture / shutter speed that may or may not be in agreement with what everyone else is using took a picture against a wall that is an unknown color. Most of the people taking the pictures may well be using software/camera firmware/scanner firmware that makes it "look nice" with out actually telling them anything.

That tells me nothing other than lights sure are pretty. It is nice to see beam patterns that is certain.

but if I can take a spot reading against a known object (like a grey card) at various parts of the beam it tells me a hell of alot more than a picture some dude took after pointing a light at his wall.

wether it tells anything to anyone else.. perhaps that is a different matter.

If you want I can go back and color correct all of those light pictures and make them look like totally awesome lights. :rolleyes:

All this talk and no sample.

If you have a better idea, just post your result. It's much easier to be a critic and bashes other people's result than to create something. Are you afraid of bein g criticized, wheezl?

And you too, threephi. I'd like to see your test result if you claim yourself a professional. I'd expect see much better result than mine. I wouldn't even think about bashing someone before I tried something.

Just look at all the posts in this thread, I'm the only one posted the result and nobody else. What a bunch of big mouths and nothing to back it up!!

Heh, no I am not afraid of being criticized. If you look back it was you who jumped on me after my offer to use a light meter. I like my light and don't really care to measure it. I was offering the light meter as a service to the folks who might be interested and everyone shot me down. So since I have a job that requires long hours I am not going to waste my time when I could be sleeping or seeing my friends and family. (also I haven't unpacked from moving and have no idea what box it's in :) )

My point wasn't that photos are bad. My point was to defend the concept of using a light meter since you didn't really understand what I was trying to explain. Perhaps I explained poorly.

No one is bashing you and I think that since you felt attacked you ended up disagreeing as a defense mechanism.

Those pics are great and I may have come off sounding harsh.. perhaps that was me getting defensive.

To sum up:
I had the idea to use the light meter, I got shot down. It seems like the project sounded more interesting to me than anyone else. :) I am going to go replace my brake pads now.

Interpretation.

"I don't have the time I can waste like you do. I have my light meter but I'm too busy, so I suggest you do it."

A few peple made a requset that they want to see my comparison test, so I wasted my time and did the test. I thought I did my part to help other members. I thought many peple would follow and post their result. If you can't compare the lights A, B, C, side by side you can still compare A, B, followed by another member B, C comparison test, so you can come up with some idea what comparison between light A and C.

Guess what? Nobody followed. All I got was the opinion that saying the test was inferior and suggested something else, while they can do their own. Sure, it's much easier when you sit around in the couch, tell the wife to get a beer. get a bag of chips and tell her how bad the beer tastes and suggest something else.

Sure, I have 60 hours a day in my hand just laying around and no work. Is that what you are saying?

Wow, you really are stretching here. I do have enough time to waste that I considered using the light meter to test. You'll notice that NO ONE was interested. In light of the fact that NO ONE was interested, I decided not to waste my time.

I was never criticizing the very useful pics you took. I was however criticising your complete lack of undertsanding about what a camera is and what a light meter is. That's all! I know I came off sounding like a jerk. That's because I am a jerk.

I suggested that it would be neat to use a light meter also. You jumped on me so I felt it wise to explain a bit about what I was thinking. In hindsight I'd have to say it didn't work out.

I THINK YOUR PICTURES ARE GREAT.

So stop feeling persecuted already.

Apology not accepted. Next ride, steven holds you, we beat you down for a good solid 5 minutes with your own light meter.

alright everyone just chill out. I think both methods have their place in "measuring and evaluating light."

Anyway... just wanted to say thanks to allgoo19 for posting up the comparison. I was about to buy the Cateye 1 LED light but saved some money and went for the HL 500 II instead (as suggested) and I've VERY impressed with this light. For only $10 (clear model at nashbar right now) i think it was a steal. I'd highly reccomend this light to anyone who is on a tight budget. My friend just bought a 3 led light and this one blows it away. Thanks for the suggestion!

:) in that case I am totally not going to figure out what box it is in.

Thank you, nitroroo.

I feel very rewarded.

I second that.

I'd like to get something a little brawnier, but I can navigate the unlit (dark) greenway paths here up to 10 mph with my Cateye HL500 II (2.4W Halogen), which I've been super happy with for the past two years. I've been using it almost daily and I've never had a problem. I've dropped it several times and gotten it soaking wet once or twice and I'm still on the original bulb.

The Cateye is good for about 3.5 hours, the cheapie for at least 30 hours (much longer on blink). I use the HL500 II as my "to see" light and a super cheap 5-LED thingy as my "to be seen" light, and as a backup. On lit streets, I just need to be seen, so I run the cheapie on blink, and I flip on the Cateye if I need to see in the dark.

Here's a link to my super cheap 4-aaa light on eBay, if anyone's interested: http://cgi.ebay.com/5-LED-BICYCLE-HE...temZ8710792871

And here's the HL500 II at Nashbar:
http://www.nashbar.com/profile.cfm?c...eid=&pagename=

Like I say, brighter lights are on my wishlist, but until I decide I'm ready to fork out the serious $$ (or to embrace my true geek nature), these'll do me.

BTW, allgoo19, I'm in the process of making the handlebar camera mount (using the HL500 II's mounting bracket) as you suggested in this post: http://www.bikeforums.net/showpost.p...79&postcount=9

Are you still using yours?