kudude

SO after all the battery talk, does anyone want to tell me to buy

a)
b)
c)

and what to do with them if I want an extended battery life?

dougmc

Well, what's your budget? And what sort of riding do you do? (Road, mountain biking, etc.)

The Magicshine 900 is an awesome deal. For extended battery life (longer times between charges) get the all-battery.com pack mentioned earlier.

Deal Extreme's $33 P7 light + charger + batteries + mount at around $50 is a great deal as well. It also makes the `extended battery life' question easier to answer -- just swap batteries. The Magicshine is better in several ways, however.

Those are the `sweet spots' for good lights. You can find some lights for less, but they won't be nearly as good as these.

If money is no object, then there are better lights out there. But they'll cost you many times more money.

socalrider

I think people get the impression that the battery pack is a big deal.. The battery pack is very small and lightweight.. I could easily fit 3 of these battery packs in my Jandd stem bag, you could fit 4 of them in a large Bento Box stem bag.. The MS light is still the best bang for the buck out there.. 100.00 gets you a lot of light and nothing on the market comes close for the pricepoint.. Consider name brand with similar output will cost you at 300-500.00..

Plutonix

Actually, they told you most of what you need to know to make a replacement pack when they said "3.8V". No special tools required.

They do have to protect themselves from someone who thinks they can mix and match Lithium packs and chargers. They not only have product liability issues to deal with, but they cant have someone hooking up a 14.4V pack to their light, frying it and then be expected to fix it under warranty. The ordinary Joe shouldn't be messing with it since simply getting the polarity wrong could be bad for all involved. If Joe finished high school, it is likely within his ability.

None of that makes them anti-consumer. CygoLite has a very good reputation and one of the good ones who dont generally resort to proprietary plugs. They do have additional hurdles to get over that the Chinese do not.

daniel58

kudude SO after all the battery talk, does anyone want to tell me to buy

a) In the under $100 subcategory the Magicshine pretty much its hard to go wrong from the standpoint of "lumens for dollar" as a primary illumination tool.

b) If your eyes liked what the first Magicshine provided in terms of illumination "lumens for dollar" and one still needed more illumination for lets say downhill runs then a second Magicshine should be able to take care of most of your secondary illumination tools needs.

and what to do with them if I want an extended battery life?

If one needed to extend ones total battery running times using the Magicshine Led Lightset just add another battery pack(half the price of branded name battery pack's) for every three hours or go with dougmc's suggestion of the all-battery 8.8aH battery pack(its not that hard to figure out see last paragraph suggestion).

c) If one needed to go for a branded name bicycle lighting system and did not mind paying quite a bit more then one could get the:

NiteRider MiNewt.series 400 Dual LED Li-Ion Bicycle Head Light(its got decent comparable light output for the "lumen dollar");

as its got a dual Led Lightset Engine lighting source with decent optics and the accompanying brand name "if that is what one needed"

The downside is the maximum lumens for this lightset is 400lumens but at least its better than a Cygolite Rover Series or even a Cygolite Mighty Cross Series Led Bicycle Lighting System with only one lighthead engine.

One can also try going to the Branded Name Led Bicycle Lighting Systems Manufacturer website for product information or product support and also try downloading the owner's/user's manual and try to determine the technical specification that way and also hopefully to get an idea of what kind of connectors they might be using on their Led Bicycle Lighting System in particular for the model one was interested in; from the owner's/user's manual product model's description and/or pictures.

Plutonix is quite right, it is not terribly difficult or complex to do and even if one is not entirely comfortable making a "replacement battery pack" one could always go down to the local "Radio Shack" store for some "friendly advice and guidance" before initially tackling that kind of a project.

Happy Holidays to all

Plutonix

Or...one could look at the light in one's hand to see what's what. One typically doesnt build a pack for a light one doesnt have or before one actually has it. The best thing is to buy 1 or 2 extension cables if available so you can chop them up later for connectors. Usually cheaper too.

Thats probably the worst place to go in general. Better off getting help from a R/C hobby place.

kudude

I guess I wasn't clear. I have a MS900 and really like it. I'd like to put together a second battery pack (and might as well make it last longer)

Plutonix

That all-battery pack for $24 is close to the bargain of the year as most packs that size cost at least double that. The only caveat is that Tenergy is notorious for inconsistency and wildly overstating capacity, so the 8+Ah they state is probably false, but should run much longer than the stock pack.

nwmtnbkr

You can buy lightheads from thesingletrackstore.com. I bought a lighthead (I have 2 MS lightheads on the handlebars now) there since Geoman is having problems getting them. (I don't think he breaks up packs but gets shipments of lightheads, at least that's what I understood from the email exchange we had. He has been expecting shipments of lightheads but they just never arrive.) The single track store also has lower shipping rates--a flat rate of $5.95--and ship out very quickly. I spent much more for my MS kit to be shipped by Geoman and it took him a while before he got my order in the mail even though the kits were in stock when I ordered.

daniel58

The 7.4VDC Tenergy battery pack in question is made up of eight 186550 batteries (2S4P configuration) probably imported from China.

daniel58

I concur, the pigtail extension cable idea probably simplifies things and Geoman has extension cables available for purchase if one needed them.

seeker333

As a follow-up to my last post (#687), I got the red light at 7.8v yesterday on my MS, or about 90 minutes riding. The battery is 8.2-8.4v fresh off charger.

My driver seems to be getting worse. I don't know if the light will actually shut off at 3+ hrs as original or not. Guess I'll have to run a test to see. If it still goes 3 hrs then I'm fine, and if not I've got a problem.

All you guys buying extra batteries might want to wait 3 months (warranty expiration) to see if your MS actually survives this period.

Looking forward to your pics. I posted one showing my DX P7 1x18650 flashlight vs MS; it is also brighter than the MS. Just a FYI, AFAIK all the 1x18650 lights operate in direct-drive mode, despite the nonsensical claims of all these flashlight sellers. They are initially driven at >3A, quickly drop and then slowly taper down to a dim level where you realize the battery is about dead and you turn it off. At some point it will become dimmer than the MS (which IS regulated at constant current). I get about 80 minutes of useful life out of my DX P7 with DX 18650 cell.

Also, my DX P7 flashlight does not create anywhere near the amount of EM noise as the the MS (based on radio interference level), which makes sense since there's no PWM circuit regulating the flashlight.

If you like the flashlight form better, take a look at dealextreme.com, since their P7 lights and cells are less expensive, and they are almost certainly the same thing as the flashlight offered by MS, and possibly better. Be aware that about 1/2 the DX lights are DOA/essentially DOA, so buy 2-3 and expect to have to return some. They have a return site in FL, and the process is slow but works. Downside is DX only gives you shopping credit, not refund, which leads to another iteration of light purchase/evaluation/possible return. Shopping from DX is the acid test for customer patience.

Plutonix

LOL. Heretic! Blasphemer! Burn the witch! Burn him!

Seriously, it is easy to over react to winter and go for that 2S4P. The downside is that if it just sits around in summer because you dont need that much time and use the original, it is still aging. Even if you do use it and but dont deep discharge it, you are aging the cells with more numerous topping off charges.

Shopping from DX is the acid test for customer patience.
Especially during Chinese New Year

daniel58

unfortunately "aging" effects with lithium ion cobalt chemistry batteries are basically unavoidable, supposedly if one puts ones lithium ion battery in the refrigeratory even if its chilled down to just 40 degrees or so; that helps to halt or at least slow down the undesired "aging" effects in its track.

fortunately, lithium ion cobalt batteries have come down in price drastically, especially if one gets a good price on ebay for example or deal extreme or all-battery.

in actuality the price point for lithium ion cobalt batteries has come down in price so much, that one can get it almost for the same price as nickel metal hydride batteries now; especially if one can get those lithium ion cobalt batteries from ebay, deal extreme, or all-battery(not bad when one looks at the energy density and recharge cycle life)

the lithium iron phosphate batteries on the other hand largely reduces the undesired characteristic "aging" effects and has superior total cycle life recharge cycles but unfortunately this battery is still particularly quite expensive.

the voltage of the lithium iron phosphate batteries are 3.2VDC per cell so voltage compatibility is a concern in certain battery run applications.

Happy Holidays to all

Plutonix

Made a new thread instead. Sorry


They do age with time and cooling them does slow it down. That argues against having a back up pack 'just in case'. It is loosing capacity just sitting there. But that has little to do with what I was talking about.

Li Ions are good for a fixed number of charge cycles. It doesnt matter whether you are deep charging them or topping them off, it takes the same toll. This is why it is better to deep discharge them. It is not that they "like" being deep discharged - as some think - but that if you are going to charge it, make it count.

Depends on what you buy. AW and Wolf Eye brands cost more per cell than a 4 pack of Eneloops. $70 Li Ion packs that might last 2 years is a bit pricier than NiMH too.


BTW, it looks like the Big Sale on the 2S4P pack at all-battery is over. Closest thing is a 7.4V 2200mAh for $9 (which is also prolly a Big Sale price). Hook 4 up for $36. Next best is the regular $72 pack.

rumrunn6

I only bought mine due to the darkness commuting in the fall; winter and early spring. most of my commuting will at least be at dawn or dusk when I won't need a headlamp to see where I am going. the stock battery should be just fine for me.

btw: I left my unit disassembled in a metal mesh box over a air duct. by time I'm back from the weekend it will be quite dry, Im sure. the heat is set way low so no fear of overdrying!

megamo

I received my MS headlight set 3days ago. The battery is already fully charged but there is some comment on Li-Ion batteries say Do not run them full cycle like a nicad (i.e do Not fully charge, fully discharge). Does this mean I should not let the battery fully run out or when I charge it I should not charge the battery in full? Is that right?
Thanks in advance

sierrabob

The "digitally regulated" spec for the Magicshine 812 bike torch implies that the light is not direct drive. I don't have enough experience yet to say for certain, but the light just survived a two hour plus country road ride and could still shine on high when needed.

The real plus for this light is its memory feature. This allows switching between high and off with just one click. When coupled with a Magicshine 808 (the light mainly discussed in this thread), this capability provides the high beam/low beam courtesy motorists use on country roads. With no oncomng traffic, I operated the MJ-812 on high and left the MJ-808 on low. When a vehicle approached I just switched off the MJ-812, then clicked it back on when I had the road to myself. Instant switching between high and low is not possible with an MJ-808. It does not have switch memory--you must cycle through all of its five (or three) modes to return to high. I hope you understand this important distinction between the two lights.

Well, enough talk. Here are some pictures:


The MJ-812 with P7-D bin is bluer and possibly brighter than the MJ-808. Photo taken at 100% mode after over two hours of intermittent use on high and low beam.


Note the more natural tone for the MJ-808 with P7-C bin (pardon the poor quality beam shots).


With MJ-808 turned off, MJ-812 causes no interruption of the six sensors in this Sigma wireless computer.


When using the MJ-808 and MJ-812 together, EMI from MJ-808 did interrupt wireless comms once in a while (battery pack mounted about six inches away on top tube).


Specs say its digitally regulated and 2800mA. Be aware that the carrying clip fits a 26.0 size bare handlebar nicely, but you'd have problems with any larger diameters. Battery and charger included.

All in all a very nice product.

daniel58

Hope everyone that wanted in on the 7.4VDC / 8.8ah Lithium Ion battery $24.13 got in on the holiday deal "doorbuster" sale over at all-battery.

If you missed out, not to fret the next closest thing is the 7.4VDC 5200mAh li-ion battery for $20.32(which is also at a good sale price) and

looks to be still less than Geoman's $38 7.4VDC 4400mAh li-ion battery,

the major bonus that makes it extra "nice" here is the capacity of the li-ion battery is a much higher 5.2aH versus Geoman's only 4.4Ah li-ion battery;

while still fitting into the same sized li-ion rechargeable battery nylon battery pouch case;

which still offers a decent measure of water resistancy in a light to moderate rain shower.

Better yet "hook up two" and "Bam" you've got 10,400mAh of lithium ion battery "goodness" for still only $40.64;

that still "beats out" Geoman's only 4.4Ah lithium ion $38 battery by a factor of at least "2 to 1" for only $2.64 additional extra cost and its got higher "OEM" type quality rated cells to boot.

sounds like another holiday deal "doorbuster" sale item in the making and is also ideal for making higher li-ion voltage battery packs-14.8V pack

One other bonus, the lithium ion batteries in the 5.2Ah lithium ion battery pack(2S2P configuration) are made up of the higher "OEM" type quality 2.6Ah lithium ion batteries instead of the regular "Non-OEM" type quality 2.2Ah lithium ion batteries.

Higher amp hour rated lithium ion rechargeable battery capacity, better quality "OEM" rated lithium ion rechargeable batteries, and better priced lithium ion rechargeable batteries! The 3 Amigos!

Happy Holidays to all

daniel58

Yes, on the yellow instruction sheet they say something about lithium ion batteries preferring partial recharges as compared to full recharges and they also say that lithium ion batteries prefer to be discharged no more than 60% DOD(depth of discharge) which would work out to:

4400mAh times 0.60 equals 2640mAh capacity

These lithium ion rechargeable battery notes

One of the unavoidable downsides of the cobalt based lithium ion rechargeable battery due to its physical chemistry makeup, is the increase of the internal resistance that occurs with typical cobalt lithium ion battery "cycling" and "aging".

Usually after 2-3 years of use, the lithium ion battery pack often becomes unserviceable due to a large voltage drop under load that is caused by this higher internal resistance(due to internal cell oxidation) within the cell.

The cobalt based lithium ion batteries characteristic capacity loss physically manifests itself in the now noticeable "increased internal resistance" caused by this "internal cell oxidation" as a result of the cobalt based lithium ion batteries chemistry "aging" process.

Now eventually, this internal cell resistance reaches a point where the lithium ion battery pack can no longer deliver the stored energy,

despite the fact the lithium ion battery may still have ample charge within the lithium ion cell itself.

High temperatures usually accelerate this process, resulting in even shorter lithium ion rechargeable battery life.

Generally it is not prudent to discharge the lithium-ion rechargeable battery too deeply as outlined above with the 60% DOD "guideline" figure.

Instead, charge it more frequently as the lithium-ion rechargeable battery does not have memory problems like nickel-cadmium batteries,

or remember one can use a larger lithium-ion rechargeable battery so one does not have to recharge as frequently as well.

Also, no deep discharges are needed for conditioning with the lithium ion rechargeable battery unlike the nickel-cadmium batteries.

Also, do not charge lithium-ion batteries at or below freezing temperature as an irreversible undesired "plating" of metallic lithium will occur that compromises the safety of the pack.

Also, if one is going to put it away for a prolonged period of time one can put it in the refrigerator, with the lithium ion battery at a recommended SOC(state of charge) of 40%,

which for a 4400mAh battery would be a 1760mAh level of lithium ion battery charge capacity.

Happy Holidays to all

rumrunn6

sierrabob - basically - just use it! ;-) go out riding and then charge it. you'll notice the pilot light change color but so what? also the color on the charger case will change from red t green when it is fully charged. just use it and don't worry too much. I guess we should just not charge it fully and then put it away for a weekend or a month - better to put it away with only a partial charge.

hmmm... hope that helps! :-)

dougmc

There's a number of DX P7 flashlights -- I've got two, one has a resistor to reduce the brightness (two mode) and the other (5 mode) uses a PWM circuit to do it (it flashes the light very quickly.) (The latter is more efficient.)

In any event, the flashlight has all the circuitry inside of a metal tube -- any interference it creates can't really go anywhere. For the MS light, it's inside the lighthead, but you've got a long wire coming out of that which will work as a nice antenna. So it's not surprising that the MS makes more interference.

Wrap the wire several times around a ferrite bead near the lighthead and that should help a lot.

Plutonix

Decidedly bad advise.

Li Ion cells are typically rated for 300 charge cycles before they reach 80% capacity. Cheap ones probably less, but it is listed on their data sheets. A deep charge counts the same as a or topping off charge, so it is better to use a pack until you get a low power signal (or ~2.7V/cell) rather than topping it off.

For someone who uses the light often, 300 cycles is not very much considering the cost. To be sure, the pack is usable after that but when total capacity reaches 80% they are considered used up.

dougmc

If your MS isn't as bright as your DX P7 light, I wonder if something is wrong with your MS -- my MS is noticeably brighter than my DX P7 light. (And yes, I'm talking about high power modes and with fully charged batteries, and I've compared against my friend's MS as well.)

And it makes sense -- the MS has 8.4 volts to work with when fully charged, and the DX P7 light only has 4.2 volts.

daniel58

For further reading and analysis, the information was derived from reading on batteryuniversity.com link(its quite informative nontheless):

https://www.batteryuniversity.com/parttwo-34.htm

read through the article titled "How to prolong lithium-based batteries" and make ones own interpretation as I did as well; ones subsequent interpretation may vary naturally of course.

"A lithium-ion battery provides 300-500 discharge/charge cycles. The battery prefers a partial rather than a full discharge. Frequent full discharges should be avoided when possible. Instead, charge the battery more often or use a larger battery. There is no concern of memory when applying unscheduled charges".


Happy Holidays to all