SlipKid65

cyccommute,

I am mostly a lurker on here, and have recently got into biking for fitness. My "sweet spot" for riding is late at night, mainly due to body clock, with the added bonus of little to no traffic. Much of my ride is in areas with no street lighting, and I needed something to be able to see in nearly pitch black. I tried a few AA cell lights, and was underwhelmed, to say the least, and was looking for a stopgap until I go to a dynohub setup.

I took your advice from another thread on the subject, and got a couple of the Magicshine knockoffs from Amazon. I've been using them 3-4 nights a week, 2 hours at a time for the last 2 months, and have been VERY satisfied with them, especially considering the cost.

I've got a "1200" lumen version with 3 brightness settings on my helmet, and a "1600" lumen with 2 brightness settings, plus a flashing setting I use in the daytime. I also got a few extra 6400 mah batteries for longer rides but I have not run out a battery on either light on 2+ hour rides yet.

Thanks for the rec. IMHO, these are exactly what the OP is looking for.

cyccommute 

Look at your first link again. The heading on what you are calling "chemistries" is "Materials and construction", not chemistry. When I talk about a battery 'chemistry', I'm talking about the metal part of the chemistry. You can have refinements that make the battery more efficient or easier to handle or give them longer life but the "chemistry" part is shared by all the refinements. A lithium ion battery, a lithium polymer battery, a lithium battery with a maganese cathode, etc are all 'lithium' batteries. If you remove the lithium and replace it with something else, the battery is no longer a lithium chemistry battery. The same can be said of nickel, lead, or zinc/carbon (alkaline) batteries.

Because the chemistry is tied to the metal ion, they all share common characteristics in voltage, charging regimes, discharge, and life cycle. The refinements can help with some of those characteristics but only modestly. For example, go to the bottom of the page on Li-ion batteries. Look at the sections titled "Prolonging battery pack life", "Advantages" and "Multicell devices". These sections apply to all Li based batteries. You have to tightly control the discharge rate and the discharge level. You have to carefully regulate the recharge rate. You can't overheat any lithium battery nor can you discharge them too low nor can you overcharge them. All three of those conditions can result in the same problem (different for each condition) for any lithium battery.

cyccommute 

Glad to help. I would suggest, if you haven't done so already, that you get another light for your head. You'll be amazed at what it does for cornering at night.

SlipKid65

The 1200 lmn is on my helmet..... Works great for lighting up the gators, snakes, possums, dillos, deer and other critters we have down here......

dougmc

So, you don't think that if there's different materials involved in the reaction that the chemistry might be different?

So, when you say "lithium batteries share the very same chemistry" (emphasis mine), you mean that since there's lithium involved, the rest doesn't matter? You do realize that there's usually other metals involved too, right? (And I don't just mean in the case -- there's usually other metals involved in the chemistries. The wikipedia pages I've given give details.)

Sure, they're all "lithium" batteries, but they have different chemistries, and some varying characteristics.

ORLY? Did you even read the links I gave?

Many aren't rechargeable at all.

As for "common characteristics in voltage", they all share the characteristic that they have voltage (which they share with all cells.) Beyond that, the voltages vary considerably -- the open circuit voltages for the primary cells are 1.8, 2.04, 2.2, 2.4, 3.0, 3.1, 3.3, 3.4, 3.45, 3.65 and 3.95 volts -- that's a a pretty big difference for things that are all the "very same chemistry". (In case it wasn't clear, the chemistry determines the voltage.)

As for the secondary cells, the lithium-ion cells have a significant number of anode, cathode and electrolyte materials to choose from, and depending on what you've chosen you get different voltages, "charging regimes", discharge, and life cycle, etc.

If you look at the secondary cell lithium polymer cells, there's two main anodes used -- LiCoO[SUB]2[/SUB] and LiMn[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]4[/SUB] and various electrolytes and cathodes. LiCoO[SUB]2[/SUB] and LiMn[SUB]2[/SUB]O[SUB]4[/SUB] based cells have different voltages, charging regimes, life cycles, etc.

Even if we restrict ourselves to only looking at rechargeable batteries commonly used on bicycles, there's two main varieties -- LiCoO[SUB]2[/SUB] and LiFePO[SUB]4[/SUB]. You seem to be thinking only of the LiCoO[SUB]2[/SUB] batteries -- but LiFePO[SUB]4[/SUB] cells have different (lower) voltages and energy densities, somewhat higher power densities, are more tolerant of abuse, are much more difficult to make burn if abused, have longer cycle lifes, etc. All brought to you by a somewhat different chemistry!

You should also know that not all nickel based batteries "share the same chemistry" either, and different types can have different "voltages, charging regimes, discharge, and life cycles".

If you want to say that "all lithium based batteries share some characteristics" -- that would be an accurate statement. But saying they all have the "very same chemistry"? Very, very wrong. You can't even qualify that by saying the "same metal part of the chemistry" because there's other metals involved as well in most of them.

SlipKid65

Being an avid RC hobbyist for over 34 years, I am no stranger to various types of rechargeable cells. BUT, I am not a chemist, so I really don't care how or why the light goes on when I push the switch, just that it DOES go on, and provides sufficient light for my needs. The lights that cyccomuter recommended do both of those things, and IMHO, would serve the OP well.

dougmc

Got me beat -- only done it myself for about twelve years.

His advice on lights given in this thread is fine -- I don't recall anything that I disagreed with. His advice on the specifics of battery chemistries is not -- some was correct but some was flat out wrong.

And I missed one other error --

He doesn't seem to even be aware of the modern LiPo cells we use in our R/C airplanes. (I mostly fly planes, but you may do something different.)

Some of them are rated for massive discharge rates -- such as this one that can sustain a 65C discharge rate -- which means it can deliver almost 400 amps for a bit under a minute (until it's totally dead.) I don't know of *any* nickel based cell that can handle that kind of current (let alone that kind of power -- remember, this has about triple the voltage of a NiCd or NiMH cell) out of a battery (or cell -- this is a two cell (in series) battery) that weighs a fraction of a pound.

To make a NiCd pack with sub C cells that could generate the same power would weigh about 10 lbs. (Assuming they can handle 20 amps each and weigh about 40 grams each.) Are there any NiCd or NiMH cells that are rated at even higher discharge rates?

SlipKid65

Bottom line? Does it really matter if he was wrong about the chemistry of a battery? I welcome these inexpensive, powerful packs.

I'm an airplane guy as well. I dabble in electric helis and cars a bit too. My airplanes are mostly .60-.90 sized glow stuff, but some giant scale gas and small electrics too.

When I first started playing with electric RC stuff about 9 years ago, the Lipo tech was in it's infancy. I was paying $75+ for (compared to nowadays) low C, 2200 mah, 3S packs for my "speed 400" sized airplanes. Now, far more capable ones of the same size/weight are available for under $10.

As I said, I really don't care why they do what they do and I am a technically inclined guy. I just need to know how to use and care for them safely. Battery technology has really evolved since I started, when you were lucky to get a few seasons out of a $35-$40 Nicd airborne pack, even when religiously deep cycled. I thought nimh was a godsend. The lipo stuff (along with brushless motors and extremely light radio gear) has made electric aircraft viable. Before that, the available amperage output from nicd and nimh, combined with the low output brushed motors, couldn't make up for the weight of the batteries.

All that said, I'll back up cyccommute's recommendation of these light systems, regardless of the battery chemistry . Plug them into the charger, the red light comes on, remove when it turns green.

Bovice

Couldn't find any reviews on this but looking to stay in the $15-30 range. Just wanted to see what you guys thought since I'm no good with specs and whatnot at all https://www.amazon.com/Cosmos-Black-w...ds=planet+bike

cyccommute 

When discussing battery chemistries, you talk about the metal ion involved in the reaction. The electrolyte in the reaction doesn't get involve in the electron transfer, except to provide a mechanism for the electrons to get transferred with in the electrochemical cell. The different materials can have a small effect but that effect isn't that large and is usually involved in a more efficient movement of the electrons.

No, the rest doesn't matter. They only serve to move the electrons around but aren't involved in the reaction that produces the electrons. That's why chemists talk about different battery 'chemistry' in terms of the primary metal. The other chemicals in the battery aren't there to generate electrons. The generation of electrons is what defines the chemistry. A potato clock, for example, doesn't really depend on sticking the electrodes in a potato. You could use an orange, a lemon, or a rutabaga. The electrodes are the important part. Tables of standard electrode potentials are usually written as half reactions because the rest of the reaction is of no interest.


No, they don't have different electrochemistries. They are all utilizing lithium as the electochemical means of generating electrons.

Let's stick with rechargables so that we don't drag this too far off the rails.

You are mistaken in thinking that different rechargeable batteries can be handled differently. They all come with the same warnings against overcharge, overdischarge and exposure to heat. The anion makes little difference in that respect. The anion can serve to improve efficiency and, thus, run time but it does nothing to prevent the issues caused by abuse.

They all do have the same chemistry...with regard to what counts which is the transfer of electrons that change the state of the lithium ion. What's more important, and what Burton was wrong in assuming, is that if you spend more money for a lithium chemistry battery, you can still kill it if you abuse it. Rechargeable batteries aren't the same as the alkaline battery that you have sitting in your home flashlight. All lithium batteries share a problem with overdischarge, overcharging and overheating and must be protected against those problems. If they aren't protected from those problems they could burn your house down.

ratdog

Bovice,

You're going to get a lot of recommendations based on everyone else's traveling conditions but you should clarify the following.

1. Are you using the light for dark situations in the morning and evening only or will you also be using the lights during the day where a flashing mode is helpful?

2. How dark is it where you ride & is there street lighting? This will solicit opinions on whether you can get away with fewer lumens.

3. How much traffic is there along the roads you travel & do you need to fight brighter automobile lighting coming in your direction?

4. How long is your commute & how long do you need the batteries to last? LED lights tend to cut out rather quickly once you run out of battery power so you need to make sure you can charge before each leg of your commute or if you have enough juice to go round trip.

5. Are you using the lights on a trail or only on the roads & how fast do you ride? This will help you determine how much throw your lights need to have.

I am sure there are more questions others can asks to help you narrow down what you are looking for & just my opinion, but the light you linked to is not even close to the $37 Chinese light that had been mentioned in this thread. I would recommend that you at least think about saving up for that light before spending for the one you're looking at.

cyccommute 

Okay. I can learn stuff. However, after going a reading an article (P.V. Braun et al. / Current Opinion in Solid State and Materials Science 16 (2012) 186–198) on these kinds of cells, it appears that the improvements aren't chemical ones but engineering improvements. They aren't getting more power out of the cell, they are just getting it out better by improvements to the way that the cells are made. It's still Li chemistry and, I'll hazard a guess, still has the same protection circuits to keep the user from doing something stupid.

Let's also not forget that the claim was made that spending more on the light system will get you a whole lot better battery. Is that really true? I doubt it. I've owned Niterider products in the past and taken apart their battery packs after failure. They are good products but they use common components.

I currently have a whole mess of batteries but, as they die, I'll look into the ones link to above.

Bovice

oh wow, good questions, thanks

1. Morning/evening only

2. I'm kind of all over the place. Some areas are better lit than others and my neighborhood (only .5 miles to exit though) is damn near pitch black)

3. Depends on the time, but I do catch some traffic often enough to say I'd probably want something that can handle it.

4. The longer the better, I'm commuting roughly 200 miles a week (went a bunch of extra places last week though, hit 265), I'd say 25-35% of that would be biking in the dark.

5. Primarily ride on the road, and try to keep a 17mph minimum and can usually hold anywhere up to 22mph for a decent amount of time.

Bovice

Also, was wondering if you can use a taillight as a headlight and if there's any way to modify the light from red to white (since taillights are much cheaper)

DntWorryB.Happy

Tail lights are meant to make you seen, wouldnt be good enough to light up your path when riding if you use it as a head light.

Sure you can make a light red blue or any other color.Transparent color plastic should do the trick.

no1mad 

1. Putting red film or filter on a light with a white emitter will result in less light being visible. Better to go with a light that has a red emitter to begin with. https://dx.com/p/ultrafire-wf-501b-ph...a-20333?item=2
2. Most local laws require front white and red rear.

Bovice

Mainly concerned with being seen. Been biking for 6ish for commute and never have had a front light before, so my vision isn't too big of a concern, I've never had any issues seeing, just with people seeing me (mainly people turning out onto my road, with their rolling stops and what not)

Burton

Really? !! So clue me in - how come some NiCad batteries last longer than others? How come some Lithium batteries are only warrantied for six months and others are warrantied for up to three years? Why do some battery packs have a BMS unit and others don't? Why don't the Lipo batteries (1S3) I'm currently using not NEED any protection against over discharge? What qualifies as "pull huge amounts of current out of it rapidly"? The Lipo battery pack I'm currently using is rated for 165A continuous or 330A in bursts. If you have anything in a nickel chemistry thats better than that - I'm interested. Probably not on a requirement basis as I'm only drawing 100W maximum anyway - but still interested.

Burton

Actually, if you're referring to anything I said myself - the claim was that spending more money on a BATTERY ( as part of a light system) CAN get you a whole lot more battery. But just like bikes are a sum of their components - so are batteries. You need to know WHAT you're paying for and why - otherwise its possible to buy more than you really need - or to imagine you saved a lot of money and got a quality product when you really just bought a Walmart bike.

Burton

Probably not quite that obvious. There are a number of established companies that provide lighting to the MX abd off road racing crowd that also repackage products for cyclists. The products are good - some of the mounting solutions could use some improvement. I should have some shots up in a couple weeks with alternate mounts.

I guess what surprises me is that this forum has an approximate membership of about 100,000 individuals. From the site owner's point of view - that's enough to attract paying advertisers. Why hasn't anyone figured out it also swings enough weight to dictate product requirements?

Personally I'm off the market for lights indefinitely as what I have will last a lifetime, and also have no interest in trying to sell anyone anything. Just thought there would be more interest in exchanging info in these forums rather then just settling for status quo.

DntWorryB.Happy

I went ahead and got the clone.

Turned it on for the first time, and my face lit up as i smiled.

I was not expecting it to be that bright. Ive tried some of the lights in the LBS, they were between 30-80 bucks,and battery operated....and they were crappy. Unless the batteries were dying of course.

This on the otherhand, i wouldnt dare look at it, but i did point it at my family and laugh at their reaction lol.

Its only 2:06 here, got a while before it gets dark. i want to see how far i can see down the road.


The light it self seems well made and sturdy. What concerns me is the batterypack. its 4 batteries wrapped in heat shrinked plastic. I guess i can wrap that in electrical tape to seal it more? theres a gap whee the wire comes out of the pack.

The connector itself is covered, water wont be able to get into that.

Come on darkness

DntWorryB.Happy

Now that its nite time got a chance to test!

Theres a large patch of grass in front of my complex. The light lit up the entire field, google maps says its 111 yards. There was light beyond that but my eye sight isnt the best.Im satisfied

Burton

I'd love to believe that's an accurate description but - I don't. 111 yards is 333 feet and an entire field implies a lot of width. About 150 feet of width. Maybe you should contact some sports stadiums and let them know they can replace all their expensive stadium lighting (a lot of which may already be LED arrays) with that one little light you bought and are so impressed with.

Funny how most 'reviews' are usually based on past personal experience and not reality. When 300 lumen LEDs were first introduced a number of years ago - they were typically described as 'blindingly bright' by the people reviewing them. Yeah -right.

Glad you like your light - as long as you believe its the best thing available you'll never really get to know what else is on the market.

01 CAt Man Do

I don't know which light you ordered but glad to hear you like your new light. Sounds like it is a typical thrower clone lamp.

Now that you have it here are some tips that might be of some help: Don't store the battery in a really hot area. Charge the battery in a place that does not have flammable material around and charge on a non-flammable surface. ( I charge mine in an aluminum cookie pan ) When taking the light off the bike be sure not to pull on the battery cords. To disconnect the battery pull the plugs apart by holding on to the plugs themselves. Doing this will prevent breaks in the wires that could cause the light not to work.

When you get a chance do a battery/lamp run time test. You need to do this so you will know for sure how long the battery will run when out on a ride. Now if you're only going to be out for one hour then it is no big issue. If you do rides two or three hours at a time then you need to do the test. Just be sure to use a fan to keep the lamp cool while doing the test. This is very, very important.

Looks like you're good to go. When you get a chance try to find something cheap to use as a back-up light source. If you go riding at night a back up light is really a must have item because sometimes things happen. ( forget battery, forget to charge battery...etc...etc.. )

DntWorryB.Happy

Obviously a 30 dollar light isnt going to provide stadium quality lighting.

For it to light up all the way across to let me see if anything was in the path. Thats great enough for me.

And no it wasnt the entire width.

Would you like pictures?