PlanoFuji

I do understand what you are saying, which is why I prefer dynamo lights with a much more refined optical system that places the light where it is needed at a level that is needed without the negatives associated with battery light optics and the glare/excessive bright spots associated with the 'more power type lights'...

The german standards that dynamo lights are subject to (with exceptions like the supernova 3 mentioned above which is illegal for street use in Germany) were enacted by and for people who actually use bikes for transportation on roads with other users.

P.S. I carry a small flash light, but only turn it on if I need to repair a tire or something during my night rides (which are my preference).

2manybikes

You don't really need to pay the mortgage every month.

01 CAt Man Do

Well I guess this is where we differ in opinion. I've never encountered a cyclist on the road using a lamp that was excessively or annoyingly bright. This doesn't mean there aren't people using bright lamps. It just means that when driving a motor vehicle the chances of such an encounter happening is extremely rare. As such I wouldn't consider a bright lamp on a bike to be a negative issue unless the user was using the lamp on a confined bike path ( with on-coming traffic ) or riding on the wrong side of the road ( against traffic ).

The reason I have said opinion is because I spend more than 8 hrs a day driving on the road ( with much of that driving at night ). I routinely have to deal with overly bright vehicle lights both from on-coming traffic and approaching traffic from behind. Some of those lights are "insanely bright". Nothing like having one of the newer Cadillacs following behind you at night. The head lights on those are insane. If I can deal with bright car and truck lights at night I can certainly handle a stinking 800 lumen bike light ( IF I were to actual see someone using one on the road ).

I don't know why the German people have such tight restrictions on bike lights but I have a theory so I might as well lay it out. Just so no one thinks I am picking on the Germans the theory is based on government entities within smaller geographical areas. I feel that with a smaller population and smaller area to control such government entities have more time to dilly-dally over minor issues.

Living where I live in the state of Maryland this is very much true for the local government. They just love to pass what I call "Stupid Laws". One such example is our local driving/cell phone use law. Stupid because people drive and use cell phones all the time. I've even seen the police using cell phones while driving. Then there's the law that states if you approach a police car on the side of the road making a traffic stop that you have to change lanes "if it is possible to do so safely". That's the kicker. On a two way road you can't so it doesn't apply. On a multi-lane highway if you're being passed you can't so that's okay as well. Basically it's entirely situational so why even bother. That being the case I got a ticket for violating this stupid law and that just driving down the road in a normal fashion minding my own business. Gosh you have to hate stupid laws. Passing a law telling cyclist's what kind of light they can use on the road means that the people who make the laws have too much free time on their hands.

( **Side comment: While watching T.V. tonight I noticed that there is a new version of the "Law and Order" series that will be called "Law and Order U.K.". Should be interesting. If there is ever a German version I can't wait to see the episode where the kid gets throw in jail for putting a Lupine on his handle bars and riding down the road. Get the popcorn ready. )

Burton

Checked out the beam on the Lupine website and its definately a narrow beam with a central hotspot. Beamshots are demonstrated under the 'Runtime and Lunens ' tag on this page.https://www.lupine.de/products/headlights/betty_r_x7/

Nothing new and innovative about the design - they're still only getting 100 lumens per watt - just like everybody else, using a circular beam and lipo batteries. 45 watts sucks a lot of juice and if they'd actually used a shaped beam they could've put more light where it would be usefull using less watts. Thing is - they use the same light head for their flashlights that they use for their bike lights and they all screw in so the correct orientation of a shaped beam would be impossible without a rotating head.

After riding with shaped beams - I feel shortchanged with anything else.

2manybikes

When using the Wilma light, it seems as if it was designed and shaped just for a bike, which it was. The Lupine lights are not narrow beams. Not like the narrow flashlight beams that I use as bike lights. Some of them are too narrow.
The Lupine spread is just right for close, far, and the sides. so is my old Edison 10 Lupine, and some other symmetrical beam lights. Apart from the problems of the symmetrical beam hitting drivers in the eyes, the round shape is good for a two wheeler. The correct angle of the head reduces a close hot spot to an even spread. The Lupine lights are also available with different lenses depending on what you want. A wide spread on a completely symmetrical beam is nice for a bike, if you have the brightness needed to fill it out.

The side by side round beams in the Cat eye light give a little more of an oval, that looks really nice.

On a two wheeled vehicle, when one tips to corner, a flat shaped beam starts to disappear on one side. Just like my old Triumph motorcycle, and, when I tried some 50w fog lights on a bicycle.

Burton

According to what I've looked at on the Lupine website - the Betty 4,500 lumen animal is available in only ONE beam spread -26 degrees. I have seen other Lupine lights with 10, 15 and 26 degree configurations but all of those are way too narrow for my tastes. I wouldn't drive a car with that kind of beamspread and I'd prefer not to drive a bicycle with it either. Obviously our tastes differ.

The width is important to me because I want to pick up pedestrians and animals that might be headed across my path. The tops of tree and anything else over my head I don't need to see. So currently I'm using 15/45 degree lights that have less vertical coverage than the Lupine - but LOTS more horizontal coverage. Visibility when cornering isn't even a hint of a problem. Will be outfitting a couple more bikes and since to date I haven't tripped across anything else that performs better - have reordered exactly the same components.

The only thing I'm considering changing is the connectors. The ones I'm currently using are rated for about 10x the amperage I'm using so I'll be going down a size. And those will still be overkill for a load rating, but maybe only 2x.

2manybikes

I can see a shadow of my brifters on each side and beyond. The lights cover well to 180 degrees and beyond. The specs can be misleading. I can look down and see my rear bottle. My feet. There must be light bouncing off the ground and the surroundings. If I stop I can see a little better behind me. I can see the rear bottle out and in. Just the light from the ground reflecting helps. The spill is really good. The old Edison 10 has as much. (Still works maybe 75% run time left.) But the new light is brighter, smaller, and cheaper. Seeing the cats, bunnies, and skunks in the bushes is pretty good. Especially the skunks! They have no fear.

When the leaves are off the trees in winter, I can see well into the woods on both sides.

trekmogul 

All I can say is i am quite happy wiht my "Lupine Lumens"..! Beam angle etc..etc.. is great..

ItsJustMe

I've got two 500 lumen lights and I don't even run them on high. Usually just one at half brightness. Seems plenty bright to me. Maybe the drivers elsewhere cause the need. Or maybe people are doing 50 MPH descents.

01 CAt Man Do

Yes everyone has their own preferences. Rarely do you get everything you want when you buy a light system. If you get 80 to 90% of what you want you've done well. You certainly do prefer a much wider beam pattern than most people. The problem I've found with lamps that have had "wide optics" is that there is a discernible lack of distance throw when used on the lower power levels. If you are using a second lamp with more throw than it's not a problem I suppose but it has never been my preference. On the road I like using just one ( bar mounted ) lamp most of the time if I can get away with it.

Another reason for my preference for a more narrow beam pattern ( with narrow optics ) is that I've found ( even when using so called "narrow optics" ) that as long as the lamp has multiple emitters there is usually enough side spill to illuminate objects far to the sides. I have no experience using the Lupine lamps but I would think with all the raw power that the Lupines offer, if you were using 15° optics you should get a nice mix of throw and side spill. In comparison I use a Gloworm X2 on the bars using one narrow and one intermediate optic and have no problem seeing anything on the road as long as I'm using a 500 or higher lumen setting. The only time I feel the need to add the helmet lamp is if I'm going downhill at higher speeds ( @ > 30 mph ).

Nice to have a lamp that offers different optics so you can dial in the type of beam pattern that you want, or at the least comes very close to what you want. If you couldn't be happy with the 26° beam pattern of the 4500 lumen Betty than you a tough customer to please. Personally I've always found that too much light in the foreground leads to diminished distance vision but to each their own.

JohnJ80

Exactly right.

One does not aim one's beam straight out into space at driver eye level. To be effective, you aim the beam at a slight downward angle. Gets really tough to blind anyone when you do that AND the light isn't useful many other ways.

J.

PlanoFuji

Actually when aimed like you describe about 40% of the light output from typical conical optics will be above the horizon and in the eyes of oncoming traffic. Further it produce a center oval shaped bright spot on the road in front of you. Typically that bright oval is much brighter than the surrounding light which makes it more difficult for the cyclist to see in the less well lit areas. That is why the German specs encourage dyno lights to have more uniform (and gradated) lighting patterns.

mrbubbles

When you spend that much money on a bike light, you better be happy and satisfied, otherwise it's a serious case of buyer's remorse.

I've seen ultra bright setups and I've seen my own setups from a 1km stretch of road for testing, it's not that bad, it looks like a hid motorcycle light.

Though I will say anything over 1500 is too much, I find myself using the 700 lumen "low" mode on the new setup way more often than the 1200 lumen high mode on the road.

JohnJ80

Trust me, it just isn't a problem in practice, regardless of what the regulation happy Germans want or not. I feel sorry for those that have to ride with light in Germany if they are this regulated (no pun intended).

I've been riding with big lumens for years and I rarely, like maybe twice in that time, had anyone flash their lights at me for being too bright. I think that one of the two times was that they were surprised to see I was a bike. On top of that, I did some experiments with my bike and light and looking at it from a car. Not a problem any more than a regular car headlight is on a car. It's the bright center spot that would cause a problem, the lux (lumens per square area) fall off really fast so that "40%" of the beam just doesn't have much kick in it.

The only way this becomes a problem is when you aim the light upwards from where it ought to be - like the center parallel to the road surface. And that is a silly way to mount your light.

J.

PlanoFuji

I have to disagree. I have seen the blinding problems with much less bright lights (400-800 lumen). It is particularly a problem for pedestrians who will be in the bright center of the light even if it is oriented as you describe, when passed within 5-10 feet as you approach. This is even more exacerbated with the helmet and handlebar mounting that is more common with battery lights.

As someone who now relies on lights that me the German standards, I suggest your sympathy is misplaced. They provide far better light than any battery light system with conical optics I have every seen. An opinion apparently shared my many others with experience with dyno lights and battery lights with their simplistic optics.

I have nothing against battery light technology, just wish they would spend some of their marketing hype budget (more lumens!) on better quality (and more suitable) optics.

Burton

Lights are available in 10 degree, 15, 20, 25, 35, 40, 45 and 60 degree spreads. Basic trig says that the area covered by a 45 degree beam is 9 times that covered by a 15 degree beam. So equal lux would require 9x the lumens. But an eliptical beam constrains that coverage and reduces the requirement by 55%.

So actually I can use the same 45 watts of power as a Lupine Betty and get the same brightness and more even lighting over a wider area simply because of the way the optics distribute the output. It also means that in the city when I'm a couple car lengths behind someone - the beam still cuts off vertically before their rear windshield starts. Try that with a 25 degree beam or anything wider - it ain't gonna happen. I've checked it before settling on 15 degrees.

01 CAt Man Do

You seem to have forgotten something. Assuming someone is walking along a road against traffic: There is no general rule that states that the pedestrians have to stare at a bike light. All they have to do is look away or turn their head. This might delay them a moment if the light is THAT blinding on approach but I don't consider it a major breach of etiquette ( when on a road ) as long as the amount of light being used is in league with other road vehicles. . In the mean time they will deal with every super bright vehicle light that passes them the same way as they continue their trek. All aspects considered, a bright bike light is just another brick in the wall. With this thought in mind there is no reason to expect a cyclist to use a lamp with underpowered output or one that uses an optical system designed to over-confine the beam pattern.

If you enjoy the beam pattern of the lamps you use than you have what you want. This doesn't mean everyone will be comfortable with the same output or beam pattern that you happen to like. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a limit to how much light should be used on a bike while riding on a road. What I am saying is that a cyclist on the road should be treated and given a bit of leniency to help provide for their own safety. Let them use a lamp that will let the people ( sitting in metal cages ) see them better. Motor vehicles get to ride in the middle of road where there are less potential obstacles or road debris. Cyclists don't always have that option. They need more light to see the crap on the shoulder/road edge before they get to it. ( And they also draw more attention from motorized traffic if they are brighter )

In the mean time I'm very happy using the lights I have. I don't need 4500 lumen to ride on the road. On occasion I will hit my remote to lower my output to approaching traffic as long as I'm not putting my own safety in jeopardy. That's where I draw the line. FWIW I've often found that by cycling through my lamp modes I get more attention from on-coming traffic. I suppose that's because when you change output levels your steady state lamp momentarily becomes a "flashing light". Then again I use both my main light and and a mini-flasher so I cover all of those bases anyway.

PlanoFuji

1) Sidewalks are well with the cone of light projected by cheap conical optics, including the 'bright spot'
2) Sidewalks are designed for two way traffic, so they aren't 'against traffic'
3) To avert their eyes means they aren't able to watch where they are walking
4) The beam patterns I 'like' have little to do simply with my personal preference, but an acknowledgement that others are using the public facilities as well and deserve consideration.
5) You are confusing light output with shape. I am talking about the shape of the cheap conical optics used in battery powered lights. With proper optics the output power would have minimum affect on others and you simply diminish your own night vision (which is as you say your choice) with brighter lights than needed, but the poor optics also do so to others, even at much lower output levels.
6) This is least important, but the poor optics is a waste of the limited battery power available. It does so by emitting light to wasted areas (like the sky). About 40% of the beam is used to illuminate the sky. Wouldn't you prefer a light that was 40% brighter on the road ahead of you or 40% longer battery life? That is what well designed optics would provide.

People aren't likely to get well designed optics unless they ask for them.

JohnJ80

Seriously. It's just not a problem. Yes, you can get blinded if you shine a 400 lumen light right in your face. But to get that close you're about to get run over and you have a lot of other problems that are going to be much more serious.

This is no different that a car headlight coming 5 feet away. Happens all the time when you are walking along a rode. When did we get all worried about 1300/2600 lumens (i.e. car head lights single and a pair)? Don't stare at it - just like they told you in driver training when you were 15.

I was riding last night with my Wilma 2400 on full. Came across lots of pedestrians. No one went nuts, no one covered their eyes, no one had a fit about it. Several of them said "hi". And three of them said, "Nice light!" Not the responses I would have expected after I'd been "blinding" them with 2400 lumens of light from a single light. Like I said - This. Is. Not. A. Problem. And we don't need to turn it into one just because.



J.

01 CAt Man Do

On point #3; this isn't going to kill them and people often don't look straight ahead when they walk. All they have to do is advert their eyes downward or to the side. This is why God gave us necks that move and eyes that roll.

On point #4: When I consider the needs of others I also consider my own needs and who has the greater risk. If someone is on a sidewalk and I'm in the roadway I think it fair to say I'm the one with the greater risk. I'm not going to sacrifice an element of my safety for what would only be a momentary inconvenience ( at best ) to another person. The fact that someone walking on a sidewalk might see my bike light ( noting it's brightness ) means they will not walk in front of me if they decide to cross the road. This protects them, this protects me.

On points #5 and 6: From my perspective, my lights have minimal ( negative ) effect on others. Like John said, most every comment I've received about my bike have been positive. I'm not concerned that there is an amount of light that is wasted. If too much light is going upward then the beam pattern is too wide. That is why I like tighter beam patterns. I want "most of the light" to be driven toward the road. My lights do that. What concerns me the most is that the lamp I'm using is giving me enough road surface coverage for me to see what needs to be seen. Since it does ( 90% of the time ) I'm happy. I'm not worried that there are people who don't like my bike light. I believe it was Abraham Lincoln who once said, "You can please some of the people some of the time, all of the people some of the time, some of the people all of the time but you can never please all of the people all of the time.”
Hard to argue with that logic.

trekmogul 

Looks like a 2 week delay in getting the new 4500 lumen lupines..Arghhh.!

JohnJ80

Cat - great summary.

The part of the beam that goes not on the road but other places (out in front) is the part that gets the attention of drivers. For instance, if you had a beam that only put light down on the road and not anywhere up (think cone from regular light), then there is little for the opposing or intersecting driver to see. It's that part that is the wide part of the cone that is the photons that reach those who are potential hazards for you (and for them - they don't want to hit you either). So only a portion of that cone is wasted.

I also have a Taz1200 from L&M (terrific light) that has a great beam pattern. My characterization of it is that it is largely a regular cone style beam but it also has two LEDs that shine down and out illuminating the area of the road immediately in front of the bike. Lights with cone shaped beams, typically illuminate this area with spill. But, truthfully, the area immediately in front of the bike is of little use anyhow since if you are traveling at a decent rate of speed, 5' or so is not going to make a difference. If you didn't see it when it was in the beam further out, you are not going to be able to avoid it if you have 5' of warning. So the beam, while nice, truthfully doesn't offer a huge advantage.

I'd also bring up my experience riding in the city (MUP path) the other day. A biker coming from the opposite direction had what looked like an older mini newt in flash mode. I could see that cyclist's light far sooner than I could even tell it was a cyclist - I thought that was great! But that wouldn't happen with a shaped demure beam.

You know what? I have zero trouble if people have to avert their eyes from my beam. It's just exactly what I have to do when driving a car and another car is coming at me. This is not a new phenomena, but it is a new invented issue in the world of bike lights. And ,like I said, in many years of riding with HID lights and now the brightest of the LEDs, I have never had anyone (except a drunk driver yell at me and being annoyed - pulled over; a very good thing) complain about the lights but I have had (daily) people complement me on the bright and visible lights. That tells me people get it and think it's a great thing that cyclists are visible.

J.

Burton

All this comparison with car headlights is leaving out one important little detail. Automotive low beams are required by law to have a shielded element. High beams are unshielded. High beams are also illegal to use inside city limits or where there is overhead lighting.

LEDs in all bike lights that don't meet government standards for on-road use unshielded outputs. Claiming that thats no different than an automotive headlight isn't exactly accurate. No-one is going to run into someone legally using high beams in a car anywhere its legal to drive a bicycle.

01 CAt Man Do

A comment about motor vehicle headlights; With some car/truck head lights being much brighter, no one ( not even the police ) know who's running high beams and who's not. I've driven many models and makes of cars and vans because the company I work for has a fleet of vehicles. Some have great head lights and some completely suck. When I first got my Jeep Patriot some years back people flashed their lights at me all the time thinking that I was using high beams. The vehicle just has very bright lights. Now no one bothers. Most people now accept the fact that you can't tell who has high beams on a who just has bright lights. All that "shielded vs. unshielded" stuff is just crap and in practical real world application ( at least in my state ) police don't care because they want bright lights in their cars too. If you ever get a Cadillac ( or newer pick-up ) following behind you at night you will know what I'm talking about. Now if you have a headlight out or a headlight that is pointing up in the air completely off camber than yeah, that will get you pulled over.

No one in law enforcement is going to bother pulling cars over to give them an inspection ticket because their head lights are too bright ( in the officers opinion ). That's because if they did they would quickly figure out that it was an exercise in futility. In the mean time the users of bright car lights continue to grow as more people buy newer cars or upgrade their headlight bulbs.

This said, no one going to care ( in the U.S. ) what kind of bike light you are using. Even if "someone" did decide to regulate bike lights for road use I really doubt that law enforcement would waste their time trying to enforce the issue unless there was someone doing something completely radical like lining their entire handlebar with high intensity lighting.

All this talk about "shielded vs. unshielded", "conical beam patterns vs confined beam patterns" is futile. No one really cares. If no one really cares what kind of lamps are being used in motor vehicles why would anyone even bother worrying about what cyclists are using?

What I find completely ironic in this entire discussion is that the German made BMW's have some of the brightest headlights I have ever seen. Those get to drive the roads of Germany without prejudice or impunity BUT if you use an illegally bright lamp on a bicycle you can be ticketed. Irony exist in all legal systems and governments. It's just a part of life you have to accept it or you'll go nuts thinking about it.

like green

wow...I love my bike light very much, it is 2000lms and only cost me about $230, i think the bright is enough for me . maybe in the future, i will try the 4500lm lights.