General Relativity and Biker395's Law of Stop Sign Gravity
 

So this is interesting.

I make a habit of stopping at stop signs. There are lots of reasons. First, it's the law. Second, if I am to occasionally act like a vehicle and take the lane for safety reasons, I think I have an obligation to act like a vehicle at stop signs. Third, and perhaps most importantly, I don't trust myself. Stopping at stop signs means that if I'm mistaken about a car coming, there is at least a hope that someone else is paying attention and my life will be saved in spite of myself. Frankly, I don't trust my decision making to be mistake-proof, and I'd rather not suffer the ultimate price for one if I can help it. A great side benefit is that I actually get more respect from motorists when I stop, strangely enough.

I commute down a street for a couple of miles or so near the beach that has a 4-way stop every couple of blocks or so. And I stop at every stop sign. Frankly, almost no one else does. There are often many people heading to ride out on the peninsula (behind me), and I almost NEVER see any of them stop.

And every other morning or so, I can see another commuter behind me. And even far away, I can see them blow through every single stop sign, not even slowing down. Every time they do that, they pick up 50-75 yards on me, and of course, they eventually catch me.

The funny thing is this ... when they DO catch me, they invariably stop at the stop signs that I stop at. Eventually, I make my left turn and off they go ... rolling the first stop sign, then completely blowing through the others.

So whassup with that? Are they inspired by my good example, embarrassed by their bad example, or just want to make it look like they caught me so quickly without running stop signs?

People are inherently social and highly affected by the actions of others around them. I'll be that kind of behavior is entirely unconscious in most instances.

In Idaho, bikes are legally allowed to treat stop signs as yield signs - slow down, stop if there is traffic, but roll through if it's clear. Would reasons 2 and 3 compel you to stop at stop signs in Idaho? Not judging, just curious.

Good question! I'm aware of that exception in Idaho, and have always thought it interesting. There IS a difference between a bike and a car coming to a stop at a stop sign, as our outward visibility is typically much better and we can also rely on auditory clues.

To me honest, I'm not sure. I think it would depend on the context. Those particular stop signs I was referring to? I would definitely stop at them. Too many motorists running stop signs in my hood. On the other hand, one out in the middle of nowhere with near infinite visibility in all directions would probably be a different story.

Coming to a full stop is fine, but I draw the line at having to put a foot down, unless I need to wait for cross traffic.

I generally don't put a foot down, either. The exceptions are (1) when I have to wait for cross traffic, or (2) the motorist coming the other way is waving me through, and I want to make it clear that I want them to go first (I put a foot down and wave them through).

I realize what the law says but the majority motor vehicles don't treat bicycles as vehicles so the law is a defacto guideline. I aways ride defensively! I stop at stop signs when I feel it makes sense.

I plead the 5th.

You just touched on a peeve of mine. Don't give me special treatment. If you have the right of way, take it. I usually time my stop to make sure they stop first, and that means they now have the right of way. One should never try give that right to the other vehicle. It causes confusion all around. Confusion causes accidents. (And, in my case, ill temper.) If they waive me through, the foot goes down (in an exaggerated manner) and I wave them through.

I file this peeve right next to the one about motorists that won't go ahead a pass me when they can, even if they are just being gracious. I do not need them driving behind me, especially when it's backing up traffic.

Inspired by your good example and some comaraderie so they'll not be the only people obeying the law.

When no other traffic exists I have observed that cars seldom ever completely stop also. My commute to the train includes a heavy bike and backpack, -- and I'm looking to not get sweaty. So I ride at a very leisurely pace (in the morning). It's just over two miles through residential areas with lot of stop signs. Cars approaching a stop sign with me will slow to about my speed and then accelerate through. It sort of appears they have stopped but all they really did was slow to my speed. This helps me to justify not fully stopping (or even slowing down significantly) at absent stop signs.

I choose to stop at the signs, just how I'm wired (or weird:innocent:, take your pick,) if its clear I'll do the track stand, with a complete stop, then proceed. If there is traffic, foot goes down, I'm not real safe on long term balance issues now, with PD. I tend to wave cars through, its easier to give them the go ahead than it is to have confusion about right-of-way. Too many motorist don't seem to have a grasp of what right-of-way is these days. I won't argue with a 2-ton steel monster, its a lose situation every time for the cyclist. (Been hit twice, once as a pedsetrian, once as a cyclist, I was in the right both times, didn't help me one bit)

Bill

For me, it depends. If no cars are visible in any direction (rare), I'll blow the stop sign. If there are cars visible but not right at the intersection, I'll stop briefly (no foot down) then move through. If cars are at the intersection, I do a full stop with foot down and make sure I have the other drivers' attention before moving through.

You probably looked like an expert bicycle commuter so they wanted to impress you.

Yet another reason many of us want to be you Vic (fifty plussers--see the recent I'll Fly Away thread if you don't get the reference). Your grown up behavior casts a good light on the biking community and enhances our relationship with the cars and their drivers.

Personally, I come to every controlled intersection with my hand on the brake lever ready to stop. If it's empty, I ramp down to about a nanosecond's worth of track stand, likely undetectable without slow motion capture. If it has cars, I try to make eye contact. Most of the time, the driver will waive me through, in which case I'll blow by the sign. If someone, say a police officer for instance, ever challenged me on this, I'd probably play the crippled card, and point out how difficult it is to constantly stop and launch with one hand. Truth be told, it's not that hard, and if I can't follow the rules, I shouldn't be out on the road.

One exception: your reference to the fact that your good behavior momentarily inspires the same in others. For me, it's embarrassment. I don't want a fellow biker to yell at me.

Is the topic of discussion i) cyclists stopping at stop signs, or ii) the behavior of cyclists when riding with one or more other cyclists?

Re i) I wouldn't argue with any of the reasons or discussion above, for or against. I think the interaction of cyclists with motorists is a complex subject, worthy of both principled and situational decision making.

Re ii) Riding with other cyclists particularly if you don't know them or their riding style, can be more dangerous than not stopping at stop signs. In these situations my cycling behavior will change. If the other cyclist stops, I stop. If the other cyclist rides thru, I'll ride thru (cautiously) and then decide whether to carry on riding with this person or not.

@Biker395, I commend you on your commitment to stopping.

What Vic is doing is out of the ordinary (at least it is these days). That gets the attention of the riders who overtake him and they may start to wonder if they are missing something (like maybe Vic is a cop). Just in case, they likely then decide to play along until things return to normal (they're on their own).

That's just my wild guess. Once again, we need to check in with the NSA and find out exactly what the other riders are thinking.

Some people only wash their hands in the men's room if they see others in the room doing so.

I tend to ride like I'm in my own private Idaho.

I always look at it as a chance to practice track stands.

I make a rule of trying not to get hit by cars. Sometimes that involves stopping at stop signs, but often not.

Lol ... some of these comments are a hoot.

I just thought of another possibility I hadn't considered.

What do you do when you come upon a car, sitting still at a two-lane intersection even after the light has turned green? Well, in my teens, I would have blasted on by. I now know better ... there is probably a good reason that car is sitting there (ambulance coming, slow pedestrian, animal ... any number of things), and the best thing to do is proceed with caution.

So I think they might just be slowing down not because they are inspired, ashamed, or otherwise. Likely because they figure if I'm stopping, there must be a good reason ... as in someone is coming.

Epiphany: I'm probably pissing people off!

... or maybe texting? I had that experience last summer with a car stopped in front of me at a green light, so I cautiously passed on the left (no bike lane) just in time for them to realize that the light was green and decide to hammer it, with a cyclist right in front. Don't know if I would do that again. If I had an air horn mounted on the front of my bike - I know what I'd do then.

PS Just about every stop sign I've encountered cycling this weekend, a little "angel" shows up on my shoulder with the nickname Biker395. :lol:

Biker 395, I'd just say they are marking you. :)

Maybe my father-in-law is driving that car. He and his wife went out to a flea market and on the way home "woke up" at an intersection. They had both fallen asleep while the light was red and didn't know how many cycles they had slept through.:eek: