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Ketosis--Not Fat Adapted Yet

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Ketosis--Not Fat Adapted Yet

Old 06-24-15, 07:38 AM
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Ketosis--Not Fat Adapted Yet

My weekly 50 mile bike ride is coming up this Sunday and I'll be on day 5 of ketosis. Not even close to being fat adapted yet where perfomance is optimized on this eating plan.

How much will my performance suffer? Should I slow down? Decrease the miles? Skip it?
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Old 06-24-15, 07:49 AM
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Experiment. Back off on intensity/distance if getting light headed or exhaustion sets in. You'll be fine if you remember you are teaching your body two separate things, how to meabolize food storage and cycling....even while cycling. Take notes.

I'm sure our panel will help you more than I can. Maybe even make it more complicated than necessary.


Oh and welcome to the forums.
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Old 06-24-15, 08:45 AM
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Good luck; I love low carb/ketosis riding. I never have to worry about eating and for rides over 40 miles just take some nuts or cheese.
If you are just getting into low carb you can check your ketosis adaptation by using keto strips. These can be found in drugstores pretty cheap.
I get 100 from CVS for $14.

Charlie
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Old 06-24-15, 09:11 AM
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Had the sticks the last time I went low carb. Looks like I'm in mild ketosis. Had 2 cups of coffee with cream and 2.5 hours later performed my HIIT workout on the trainer.......did not see a drop in peformance but did get slightly dizzy.

Last edited by slagador; 06-24-15 at 04:19 PM. Reason: clarity
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Old 06-24-15, 11:37 AM
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2.5 hours on a trainer?!! I'm get bored after 5 mins.

Anyway best of luck.

Charlie
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Old 06-24-15, 04:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Ursa Minor
2.5 hours on a trainer?!! I'm get bored after 5 mins.

Anyway best of luck.

Charlie
That would suck out my eternal soul to go that long. I meant to say that HIIT was performed 2.5 hours after breakfast.
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Old 06-24-15, 09:55 PM
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Oh sorry I misread your post.

Charlie
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Old 06-24-15, 10:05 PM
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takes months to fat adapt.

i do not trust the sticks

low intensity rides are best initially
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Old 06-25-15, 08:22 AM
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I've been in ketosis for 10 months now and it has truly changed my life. I feel fine going long periods without eating. When you cut out carbs you need plenty of salt (just like you need plenty of fat). I used to test for ketones using blood test strips and don't much any more. I can pretty much tell by how I feel whether or not I'm in ketosis.
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Old 06-27-15, 06:36 AM
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Day 5 after starting ketogenic diet and did a HIIT workout yesterday on the trainer. Surprisingly I had a good workout--not great but good. Started out kinda weak and hungry from not eating much during the day. Normally I would be in extreme discomfort since my hunger pangs can be miserable but it appears the ketosis is working its magic. I can assume that things will only improve as I gradually become fat adapted. I needed to put something in my belly but had no clue since I needed something that would quickly digest. Any ideas? MCT's? I ate some pork skins out of pure laziness.....I doubt that it helped.
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Old 06-28-15, 12:06 PM
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Day 6. Started the day with bulletproof coffee with some added heavy cream before my weekly 50 mile ride today. Took some mixed nuts and a Honey Stinger in case of emergency. Felt pretty good and was going my normal pace but at around mile 22 I started going downhill fast so to speak. At 25 miles I think I bonked. I've never felt this way before on a ride that I can recall. Suddenly my legs got very heavy, left calf started cramping and I got extremely fatigued....this after stopping at 20 miles for a water break and downed some pickle juice for insurance. A few minutes later I started feeling dizzy. It became apparent that this was not my day and decided to end the ride, however, my car was a few miles away so I stopped and drank water and ate the mixed nuts which didn't seem to help. I'm committed to this eating plan but it became apparent that I was going to have to eat the Honey Stinger which by the way I was craving (this is the first time being on this plan that I craved carbohydrates to this extreme). It worked as it was just enough energy (26 grams carbs) to get to my car.

This experience highlights how my body is still a sugar burning machine. I think it burned the 2 teaspoons of MCT oil in my coffee and said I'm done. It was not ready to tap into my fat stores for fatty acid energy. I look forward to the day I become fat adapted as I am an impatient man. I was disappointed that I couldn't finish the ride with my fellow riders.

I'd like to hear others experiences on the bike before becoming fat adapted. Was there a eureka moment on a ride that was much better than your previous ride? Like my ride today but the complete opposite? Or was it a subtle improvement over time.

Last edited by slagador; 06-28-15 at 12:09 PM.
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Old 06-28-15, 04:27 PM
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Fat burning (ketosis) is for hibernation. It's summer in the Northern Hemisphere, healthy vegetables & fruits are abundant and delicious now. If you cavemen wanna cycle as fast as the rest of us, get with nature's program and eat the natural bounty provided.

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Old 07-09-15, 05:29 AM
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Day 18 and still not fat adapted yet. Having to back off intensity on my trainer during HIIT sessions. Averaging about 50 watts less on my sprints. Breathing is good, lactic acid is bad and HR is averaging about 12-15 beats higher that pre ketosis. For you guys that are keto/fat adapted, did you see a big difference in your riding compared to while you were in pre fat adapted ketosis? Was the transition subtle or more like on/off? How long did it take? I understand the average is around 3-4 weeks but I'm being impatient--that and its discouraging to be forced to decrease intensity.
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Old 07-09-15, 05:50 AM
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Originally Posted by slagador
Day 18 and still not fat adapted yet. Having to back off intensity on my trainer during HIIT sessions. Averaging about 50 watts less on my sprints. Breathing is good, lactic acid is bad and HR is averaging about 12-15 beats higher that pre ketosis. For you guys that are keto/fat adapted, did you see a big difference in your riding compared to while you were in pre fat adapted ketosis? Was the transition subtle or more like on/off? How long did it take? I understand the average is around 3-4 weeks but I'm being impatient--that and its discouraging to be forced to decrease intensity.
It takes many months. Attia's N = 1 experiment was more than 12 weeks.

The effect for me was not needing to eat as much carbs during Brevets and a lowering of my times. My 300K times dropped from 14-15 hours to 11-12 hours, 400K to 13-14 hours and 600K to under 24 hours. My overall speed did NOT increase-I became more like a diesel that could just go and go at say 20-22mph. The ketones make bonking almost impossible in terms of the dizziness and mental weirdness that you get when out of glycogen. When you get fat adapted and you run out of glycogen, the drop in power will not be as apparent as it is for non-adapted athletes; however, power will indeed drop off in my experience. I have found it to be a fools errand to begin a long ride without glycogen stores reasonably topped up or to let them empty during the ride. I start the rides in ketosis. No breakfast and some specific supplements. I begin moderate consumption of specilaized maltodextrin about 40-60 minutes into the ride and aim for 150-200 Kcal per hour. Control of insulin response and exercise intensity does not ruin your state of ketosis but the type of carb and amount is important. For routine monitoring I recommend Nova max meters and strips. I don't find the urine strips to be accurate.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, don't do HITT.

In short, you are doing it wrong.
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Old 07-09-15, 06:14 AM
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Keep your carb intake below 50 grams and workout intensity no higher than Zone 2 for 2-3 months.

How to Become Fat-Adapted and Other Questions Answered | Mark's Daily Apple

The Emerging Science on Fat Adaptation | Ultrarunning Magazine

Takeaways from the FASTER Study - Zach Bitter - Blog
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Old 07-10-15, 09:30 AM
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Originally Posted by RR3
It takes many months. Attia's N = 1 experiment was more than 12 weeks.

The effect for me was not needing to eat as much carbs during Brevets and a lowering of my times. My 300K times dropped from 14-15 hours to 11-12 hours, 400K to 13-14 hours and 600K to under 24 hours. My overall speed did NOT increase-I became more like a diesel that could just go and go at say 20-22mph. The ketones make bonking almost impossible in terms of the dizziness and mental weirdness that you get when out of glycogen. When you get fat adapted and you run out of glycogen, the drop in power will not be as apparent as it is for non-adapted athletes; however, power will indeed drop off in my experience. I have found it to be a fools errand to begin a long ride without glycogen stores reasonably topped up or to let them empty during the ride. I start the rides in ketosis. No breakfast and some specific supplements. I begin moderate consumption of specilaized maltodextrin about 40-60 minutes into the ride and aim for 150-200 Kcal per hour. Control of insulin response and exercise intensity does not ruin your state of ketosis but the type of carb and amount is important. For routine monitoring I recommend Nova max meters and strips. I don't find the urine strips to be accurate.

As I mentioned in my earlier post, don't do HITT.

In short, you are doing it wrong.
Unfortunately I don't have the luxury of time to perform long rides during the week which is why I do HIIT. I continue to do it, albeit at a lower intensity, so I can measure the changes during this ketosis experiment. I think in my stage it would be better to lower intensity steady state training but that would require more time on the trainer. I may try a steady zone 3 workout and see if I could hang in there for 30 minutes or so. I feel like for just 30 minutes a session I would need to keep my intensity as high as possible but zone 2 may be all I can do. At my stage of ketosis what would you recommend I do for a couple of trainer sessions per week if I only had 30 minutes for each session? Steady state or lower intensity HIIT? My short term goal for now is just to stay up with my 50-60 mile group ride on the weekend. We average around 17-18 mph moving average. I was able to make 50 miles with them last Sunday but fortunately another guy riding with us slowed our average down to 16mph which I think helped me complete the ride. I also had 2 tbs of MCT oil and a packet of UCAN Super Starch before the ride and 1 packet during which I'll probably do again this weekend.

By the way, Barry Murray believes that in a keto adapted state that carbs (even simple carbs like sugar) during exercise cannot cause insulin release and will only top of glycogen levels that may be needed during intense bouts during the session. I see that you do use maltodextrin during your rides. Have you tried simple carbs? Ever check your blood ketones after ingestion of maltodextrin during a ride? Seems like we could get the best of both worlds--a huge fat tank that just keeps going and going and a bit of jet fuel in the form of glycogen if we should need it. Very little carbs would be needed since keto adaptation is glycogen sparing and only the highest intensities would draw on glycogen.

Thanks for those links. I had seen a couple of them previously. FASTER study findings are amazing.

Last edited by slagador; 07-10-15 at 09:43 AM.
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Old 07-10-15, 10:53 AM
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I have not checked my ketone levels during rides but have done so soon afterwards.

I have tried D-Ribose, Dextrose, glucose, 100% Amylocel waxxy maize, potato starch, and rice starch. Lactose in milk works very well too. I tried to buy glacatose but the only source was from Europe and it is bloody expensive, it is probably the simple sugar that I need. I usually have homemade gel from waxxy maize and then just normal maltodextrin for the bottles (it does not clump like the waxxy maize).

I avoid sucrose because I find the fructose component causes cramping and gas; thus, I avoid fruit and also most commercial energy powders.

jeff volek has some recent reseach (published?) with ground breaking results. It had been accepted that the most fat that one could burn was 1 gram per minute but that practically speaking, the limit was 0.75 grams per minute. It appears that fat adapted endurance athletes can burn much higher levels, upwards of 1.5-1.75. Let's call it 800+ kCal er hour. I wonder what the respiratatory quotient vs VO2 Max curves look like. I did long rides until I bonked and estimated my % fat and % glyocogen and came up with an estimated max of 600 cals per hour of just fat but the research at the time said that was impossible, which is why I elected to use maybe more carbs during rides than what it some report to take. 200 per hour in moderate temps is no problem for me and it absolutely does not induce in insulin response. I could easily test it on the trainer.....drawing blood on the road is probably illegal. LOL

Long distance (more than 200 km adn maybe more than 300Km) rides are not about power. In my experience, I did not get increased climbing ability (mor power) although I did later increase power by more than 15% using Polarized training. Anyway, long rides are about energy management. In my estimation from a variety of ways, I beleive I can ride at 180-200 Watts at 20-22 mph on the flats burning about 75% fat (500-600 cals per hour) and only 25% carbs (150-200 cals per hour). At this level, I can replace the carbs. I can ride faster for a while but then I run out of glycogen and then the speed goes down to 17-18 mph or something like that as only fat oxdiation is powering the ride. This is what I meant by saying I am more like a diesel now. I somewhat ran out of glycogen on a 400K that I did in 13:24. I "bonked" because I was doing 24-25 mph for a long time and with just a tiny bit of quickness at controls and not running out of food and water, it would have been under 13 hours for sure. I went two hours without eating and an hour without any fluids....not good. Anyway. After pumping some nasty sugars (Coke and Payday...I admit it) into me and a bit of a rest, the power came right back. When you bonk when fat adapted, it is not as bad because the brain has no problem accepting ketones.....you will just feel weak or that is how I feel. I did a 600K about a month ago without eating any garbage but I did intentionally ride a touch slower and finished strong. My vice or treat is chocolate milk and baked (not fried) potato chips or cashews or salted almonds. Otherwise, just the homemade gel and malto in the bottle. I just spent a few weeks on vacation and did not ride much, so, I am struggleing to get back into Ketosis myself in preparation for Paris-Brest-Paris in 5+ weeks.

I think UCAN Super Starch is just waxxy maize.

If you want to immediately kick start the ketosis, there are products such as KetoCaNa from Ketosports. It works. Take a scoop of this and eat some raw spinach (nitrate) before your 50 mile ride. You will have no problems keeping up.
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Old 07-10-15, 11:48 AM
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Obviously you are a N=1 kind of guy. Really enjoy reading your experimentation.

As I said before, I'm getting impatient regarding keto adaptation but I have no intention of stopping ketosis in the near future. Weight loss and fitness are important but I'm also hoping for an improved lipid profile.....mine are not good. One indicator of keto adaptation is lack of hunger so therefore I skip breakfast occasionally to see how quickly I get hungry. Do you think thats a good way to determine adaptation?
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Old 07-10-15, 07:10 PM
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Arrrggghhhh!!!! Ride your bike and forget about all this crap. Bring a map.

This, coming from someone who, in his 50's, was probably stronger than just about everyone who's ever posted on this forum.

Again I say - arrrggghhhh! Really hard to believe what some people post on here. Just ride your bike. Ride your bike. Ride.

If you want to lose weight, eat less and weigh yourself every day.

I've DESTROYED guys who've done Paris-Brest, Mt. Washington, state age group road champs etc., etc.

ARRRGGGHHHH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 07-14-15, 02:05 PM
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I've been lchf for 9 months and I've found that I need to stay under 30 gross carbs a day to stay in Ketosis. The thing that gets me into Ketosis faster than anything is bullet proof coffee. 2 cups of coffee, 2 tblsp of butter, 2 tblsp of coconut oil, and 2 tblsp of hwc with 3 squirts of liquid stevia. It gives you our healthy fat, gives you energy, and keeps you full. Good luck, and keep at it.
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Old 07-14-15, 02:24 PM
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I have been low carbing it for years and adaptation came about fairly quickly for me... I don't have any underlying health issues save for having the metabolism of a shrew and was healthy going into it and healthier now if you follow the numbers.

If anything I lean toward being too lean and limit my carbs to 100 grams a day (vegetables and a little fruit).

Not all of us are racing and looking to set personal best times, and this way of eating favours endurance over really high intensity activity.

I can ride 100 miles non stop at a steady pace, I can cruise along all day on the road bike at 30 kmh which is relatively slow for me but I have to pull this off with one leg that does not work right.

If I eat too many carbs I feel like crap but it does not take me long to get back on track, folks with messed up metabolisms might struggle with this more...it is impossible to resist my aunt's home made cinnamon buns and one cannot insult an 83 year old lady's baking. She does not eat any of her baking as she has thyroid issues and has also been low carbing it for some time... people half her age cannot keep up with her and she is super fit and trim.

My wife follows the same way of eating with a higher carb restriction as she does have endocrine / metabolic issues... her endurance is phenomenal even if she isn't super fast and she has just gotten curvier and curvier as she has gotten stronger.

Testing has shown that fat adapted athletes can perform at the same levels as they did on a higher carb diet... most of us who do this probably have done other beneficial things like adding more veggies to our diets and have eliminated a lot of poor quality food which also makes a difference.
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Old 07-17-15, 06:37 AM
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Ending 3 full weeks of ketosis and had a truly sucky 50 mile ride last Sunday. Had I not been with a group I would have taken a break and limped in very slowly to my car. Strange thing is the week before with 2 full weeks of ketosis I had a much better 50 mile ride--same speed but felt much better. Both days started out with Generation UCAN super starch and bulletproof coffee and a UCAN 1/2 way into the ride. One factor for last Sunday was the day before I did a moderate speed 25 mile ride. Could I have not recovered which resulted in poor performance?

The other odd bit of data is that my average heart rate has gone up about 12 bpm which seems to correlate with the increased lactic acid I feel during hard efforts.

Sixty Fiver and Sojo, how long did it take before you became fat adapted? Sixty Fiver, I'm assuming at 100 grams of carbs per day that you are not in ketosis. I was thinking that ketosis was required for fat adaptation benefits. Would you say that you are currently fat adapted?
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Old 07-17-15, 07:31 AM
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Nice to see Peter Atria and Mark Sisson referenced here; both are good sources of information for ketosis. I have never felt better and have been able to maintain weight at 145 to 150 for a few years now. They key for me was Primal Coffee. Basically two cups of coffee, two eggs, and butter. OP keep up the good work. While not easy to get there becoming fat adapted is well worth the effort.
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Old 07-19-15, 11:04 AM
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Originally Posted by Sojodave
I've been lchf for 9 months and I've found that I need to stay under 30 gross carbs a day to stay in Ketosis. The thing that gets me into Ketosis faster than anything is bullet proof coffee. 2 cups of coffee, 2 tblsp of butter, 2 tblsp of coconut oil, and 2 tblsp of hwc with 3 squirts of liquid stevia. It gives you our healthy fat, gives you energy, and keeps you full. Good luck, and keep at it.
HWC? What is this? I know about butter and coconut oil.
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Old 07-20-15, 08:05 AM
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Sorry, Heavy Whipping Cream
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