Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Fifty Plus (50+)
Reload this Page >

Pedals...flats..cleats and confused

Fifty Plus (50+) Share the victories, challenges, successes and special concerns of bicyclists 50 and older. Especially useful for those entering or reentering bicycling.

Pedals...flats..cleats and confused

Old 04-01-17, 08:58 AM
  #26  
Timtruro
Senior Member
 
Timtruro's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: North Truro, MA
Posts: 1,613

Bikes: Aegis Trident (Big Red)

Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I use cages, have considered cleats over the years but no need as far as I can see unless you are competitive in terms of speed etc I don't see the advantage.
Timtruro is offline  
Old 04-01-17, 09:26 AM
  #27  
Loose Chain
Senior Member
 
Loose Chain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,934

Bikes: 84 Pinarello Trevisio, 86 Guerciotti SLX, 96 Specialized Stumpjumper, 2010 Surly Cross Check, 88 Centurion Prestige, 73 Raleigh Sports, GT Force, Bridgestone MB4

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 14 Posts
OP, what bike do you have? How do you use it?

Not being clipped in, cages or clips, reduces your efficiency significantly probably around 40%, maybe more for a performance rider with good pedaling technique and fitness.
Loose Chain is offline  
Old 04-01-17, 04:23 PM
  #28  
Papa Tom
Senior Member
 
Papa Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 3,823

Bikes: The same GT Outpost Mountain bike I've been riding since 1996, although I modify it throughout the year for commuting, touring, and recreational riding.

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Loose Chain View Post
OP, what bike do you have? How do you use it?

Not being clipped in, cages or clips, reduces your efficiency significantly probably around 40%, maybe more for a performance rider with good pedaling technique and fitness.
Curious where you got that info, cuz all the "studies" I read before going back to platforms insisted that the reduction in efficiency was nominal. Having ridden platforms (no cages) now for about two years, I honestly don't feel a difference in what I can do.

This is where your question comes into play. What kind of bike does the OP have and how does he/she use it? I'm not a performance guy, but I am fit, have good pedaling technique, and like to feel like my pedal strokes are getting me somewhere. However, I really, REALLY enjoy being able to just get on my bike on a whim and ride away, and this far outweighs any concerns about whether I am losing twenty or forty or seventy percent efficiency.

Has the OP replied to this question (which I also asked a few posts back) yet? Gotta go check...
Papa Tom is offline  
Old 04-01-17, 05:37 PM
  #29  
FrontRanger
Senior Member
 
FrontRanger's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 175
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 62 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
I'm a recent flat pedal convert (rode clipless exclusively for 25 years). Modern MTB flat pedals offer tons of support (and grip), and work with practically any shoe.
FrontRanger is offline  
Old 04-01-17, 07:15 PM
  #30  
Machka 
In Real Life
 
Machka's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Down under down under
Posts: 51,447

Bikes: Lots

Mentioned: 130 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2870 Post(s)
Liked 70 Times in 49 Posts
I go with the best of both worlds, and have now been riding like this for 10 years ...

I use the dual-sided pedals I mention above.

I clip in with my left foot ... and ride the platform with my right foot.


Why do I do this?

It all started with climbing. I was a weak climber and I would reach a point on a climb where I couldn't turn the pedals anymore and would want to stop. But I was going so slowly, I couldn't unclip. I'd panic and a time or two I fell over. Then I started getting fearful of this happening on every hill so I started just walking them all from near the bottom. This made cycling a slow and tedious process. But I found that if I didn't clip in my right foot, it was very uncomfortable, but I had more confidence going up hills because I knew that I could put my foot down when it got too tough.

So in 2007, we got me one of those little platform inserts that goes into SPD pedals, and I started riding with that, and loved it! A year or so later, I got those dual-sided pedals and have been riding with them since.

One other benefit is when we're cycling through areas of heavy traffic or lots of pedestrians or something. I can come to a sudden stop and put my foot down without the whole falling over thing.
Machka is offline  
Old 04-01-17, 11:58 PM
  #31  
Loose Chain
Senior Member
 
Loose Chain's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: USA
Posts: 1,934

Bikes: 84 Pinarello Trevisio, 86 Guerciotti SLX, 96 Specialized Stumpjumper, 2010 Surly Cross Check, 88 Centurion Prestige, 73 Raleigh Sports, GT Force, Bridgestone MB4

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 215 Post(s)
Liked 17 Times in 14 Posts
Originally Posted by Papa Tom View Post
Curious where you got that info, cuz all the "studies" I read before going back to platforms insisted that the reduction in efficiency was nominal. Having ridden platforms (no cages) now for about two years, I honestly don't feel a difference in what I can do.

This is where your question comes into play. What kind of bike does the OP have and how does he/she use it? I'm not a performance guy, but I am fit, have good pedaling technique, and like to feel like my pedal strokes are getting me somewhere. However, I really, REALLY enjoy being able to just get on my bike on a whim and ride away, and this far outweighs any concerns about whether I am losing twenty or forty or seventy percent efficiency.

Has the OP replied to this question (which I also asked a few posts back) yet? Gotta go check...
Well Papa, it is like this. I do not need other people's studies that always need a follow on study, that is why I got a BE and a MS so I could use my own mind to come to conclusions. I attended, long ago, a week long tri school, back when the sport was fairly new and some professional coaching along the way. Now, it is true, if you have a low cadence, a stomper/masher at about 60 RPM, the difference is much less but for spinners who may spin upwards of 120 RPM and who use both their hamstrings and their quads, then the difference for a triathlete is considerable considering having completed a swim and still needing to complete a run. Using both sets of muscles is just much more efficient.

I do at least two weight workouts per week, full body, I can curl as much or more with my hamstrings than I can with my quads, why would I want to waste an entire muscle group? Why would you? As a performance cyclist, at least I used to be, I apply power with each leg for nearly a full 360 degrees (or nearly so). Thereby able to produce the same power output but split between the two groups of muscles.

So, take your watt meter equipped bike, run into the wind with it, with and without being cleated or strapped in. Yes, you could produce the same wattage and speed stomping and mashing away at the pedals using only your quads, but not for nearly as long as a cyclist using both his quads and hamstrings distributing the power produced between two large muscle sets instead of just one.

Pray tell, how, without being locked to the pedal, could you pull up on the pedal and pedal through a full circle? Surely, you are at least lifting the leg up so that the opposite is not having to lift the dead legs weight as well as drive the pedal downward?

Kind of like comparing a turbine engine to a piston engine, one makes power continuously in a circle as the power turbine spins, a spinner, the other is bang, bang, on a piston or stomp stomp on a pedal. You can quibble about the percentage, I could care less, but you will never keep pace with a spinner applying at least some power to nearly 100% of each revolution with both legs over any distance stomping away through less than 50% of each revolution, one leg at a time. And sitting bolt upright to top it.

Last edited by Loose Chain; 04-02-17 at 12:01 AM.
Loose Chain is offline  
Old 04-02-17, 03:00 AM
  #32  
deaninkl
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts: 153

Bikes: 2009 Giant TCR Aluxx SL, 2015 Bruno 700c Tour

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
Originally Posted by Loose Chain View Post
OP, what bike do you have? How do you use it?

Not being clipped in, cages or clips, reduces your efficiency significantly probably around 40%, maybe more for a performance rider with good pedaling technique and fitness.
I have a 2009 (very few miles of use till recently) Giant TCR Aluxx SL, very much a road bike. I knew little about modern bikes when I bought it, and is probably a little too focused for my fitness lever and age... also as the area i ride is very hilly I think the gears are too high, but I'm just learning this and will probably change that soon. I find myself using only the the bottom three gears of my 16.... (going uphill) but that has improved since I started... so maybe just need more time to get fit.

I am cycling to get fit, get into the countryside and lose weight, I was 103kg on January 1st I'm 96.5 now.. need to get to anout 80 eventually.. but slowly does it... I'm giving myself a year and thats about 1lb a week.

Last edited by deaninkl; 04-02-17 at 05:56 AM.
deaninkl is offline  
Old 04-02-17, 03:07 AM
  #33  
deaninkl
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia
Posts: 153

Bikes: 2009 Giant TCR Aluxx SL, 2015 Bruno 700c Tour

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 36 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
and by the way, I think I did already mention I have now ordered the Shimano M324's which will give me both possibilities. I can really see myself forgetting i locked in and not being able to put my feet down... so going to test the waters....
deaninkl is offline  
Old 04-02-17, 03:30 AM
  #34  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,947
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 813 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
I like SPD for urban/city riding.
Makes it far easier to bring a pedal into the power zone to get going from a light or an intersection.
dabac is offline  
Old 04-02-17, 05:48 AM
  #35  
Papa Tom
Senior Member
 
Papa Tom's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Long Island, New York
Posts: 3,823

Bikes: The same GT Outpost Mountain bike I've been riding since 1996, although I modify it throughout the year for commuting, touring, and recreational riding.

Mentioned: 16 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 536 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Loose Chain View Post
Well Papa, it is like this. I do not need other people's studies that always need a follow on study, that is why I got a BE and a MS so I could use my own mind to come to conclusions. I attended, long ago, a week long tri school, back when the sport was fairly new and some professional coaching along the way. ........
Good information, LooseChain, but I think you totally missed my point. None of this matters if the OP bought a bike just to ride half a mile to the coffee shop. Anyway, I think he's already chosen his pedals, so no need for any more discussion.
Papa Tom is offline  
Old 04-02-17, 05:56 AM
  #36  
NYMXer
Senior Member
 
NYMXer's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2015
Location: Middletown NY
Posts: 1,500

Bikes: Cannondale SuperSix EVO w Hi-Mod frame, Raleigh Tamland 1 and Giant Anthem X

Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 352 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
When considering cycling shoes, get a good firm sole with a lightweight shoe that feels comfortable. I see many beginners buying flexible soled heavy shoes and then don't use them...
NYMXer is offline  
Old 04-02-17, 06:18 AM
  #37  
donheff
Senior Member
 
donheff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Capitol Hill, Washington, DC
Posts: 1,429

Bikes: Specialized Tricross Comp

Mentioned: 1 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 33 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Loose Chain View Post
Well Papa, it is like this. I do not need other people's studies that always need a follow on study, that is why I got a BE and a MS so I could use my own mind to come to conclusions. I attended, long ago, a week long tri school, back when the sport was fairly new and some professional coaching along the way. Now, it is true, if you have a low cadence, a stomper/masher at about 60 RPM, the difference is much less but for spinners who may spin upwards of 120 RPM and who use both their hamstrings and their quads, then the difference for a triathlete is considerable considering having completed a swim and still needing to complete a run. Using both sets of muscles is just much more efficient.

I do at least two weight workouts per week, full body, I can curl as much or more with my hamstrings than I can with my quads, why would I want to waste an entire muscle group? Why would you? As a performance cyclist, at least I used to be, I apply power with each leg for nearly a full 360 degrees (or nearly so). Thereby able to produce the same power output but split between the two groups of muscles.

So, take your watt meter equipped bike, run into the wind with it, with and without being cleated or strapped in. Yes, you could produce the same wattage and speed stomping and mashing away at the pedals using only your quads, but not for nearly as long as a cyclist using both his quads and hamstrings distributing the power produced between two large muscle sets instead of just one.

Pray tell, how, without being locked to the pedal, could you pull up on the pedal and pedal through a full circle? Surely, you are at least lifting the leg up so that the opposite is not having to lift the dead legs weight as well as drive the pedal downward?

Kind of like comparing a turbine engine to a piston engine, one makes power continuously in a circle as the power turbine spins, a spinner, the other is bang, bang, on a piston or stomp stomp on a pedal. You can quibble about the percentage, I could care less, but you will never keep pace with a spinner applying at least some power to nearly 100% of each revolution with both legs over any distance stomping away through less than 50% of each revolution, one leg at a time. And sitting bolt upright to top it.
I like clipless and feel better attached using them but I didtinctly remember reading a study somewhere that concluded that they don't really improve performance. I couldn't find the article I remember reading but I did find reference to this one that concludes that the upstroke improves power but not net efficiency -- whatever that means:

Abstract
The aim of this study was to determine the influence of different shoe-pedal interfaces and of an active pulling-up action during the upstroke phase on the pedalling technique. Eight elite cyclists (C) and seven non-cyclists (NC) performed three different bouts at 90 rev•min–1 and 60% of their maximal aerobic power. They pedalled with single pedals (PED), with clipless pedals (CLIP) and with a pedal force feedback (CLIPFBACK) where subjects were asked to pull up on the pedal during the upstroke. There was no significant difference for pedalling effectiveness, net mechanical efficiency (NE) and muscular activity between PED and CLIP. When compared to CLIP, CLIPFBACK resulted in a significant increase in pedalling effectiveness during upstroke (86% for C and 57% NC, respectively), as well as higher biceps femoris and tibialis anterior muscle activity (p < 0.001). However, NE was significantly reduced (p < 0.008) with 9% and 3.3% reduction for C and NC, respectively. Consequently, shoe-pedal interface (PED vs. CLIP) did not significantly influence cycling technique during submaximal exercise. However, an active pulling-up action on the pedal during upstroke increased the pedalling effectiveness, while reducing net mechanical efficiency
donheff is offline  
Old 04-02-17, 06:23 AM
  #38  
dabac
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Posts: 7,947
Mentioned: 36 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 813 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 1 Time in 1 Post
Originally Posted by Loose Chain View Post
....I do not need other people's studies that always need a follow on study, that is why I got a BE and a MS so I could use my own mind to come to conclusions.
So what methods do you think were used to determine the facts that one way or another were used in the studies that led to your degrees?
dabac is offline  
Old 04-07-17, 10:23 AM
  #39  
Wildwood 
Veteran/Pacifist/Resister
 
Wildwood's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 8,513

Bikes: Bikes??? Thought this was social media?!?

Mentioned: 188 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1740 Post(s)
Liked 90 Times in 65 Posts
The flat pedal vs clipless debate has sure died-off recently, or at least the emotions are tempered.


We have road disc brakes to debate these days.
__________________
70sFollis 072/71 Bottecchia Giro d Italia/72 Zeus Competition/78 Batavus Competition/80 Mondia Super/81 AustroDaimler Olympian/82 Harding(Holdsworth) Special/84 Pinarello Record/85 EM Corsa Extra/86 DeRosa Pro/88 Falcon Race/99 Pinarello Cadore/99 Calfee TetraPro/03 Macalu Cirrus/04 Tallerico: The less ridden = '97 CoMotion tandem + city bike, mtn bike, beach cruiser
Wildwood is online now  
Old 04-15-17, 03:41 AM
  #40  
Falchoon
Senior Member
 
Falchoon's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: Oz
Posts: 975
Mentioned: 0 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 24 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 0 Times in 0 Posts
OP be aware that with the Shimano MTB cleats there are actually two different types (that look almost identical to the eye), standard release (SH51) and multi release (SH56). I had the standard release but kept crashing because I couldn't release my foot from the pedal quick enough. So I suggest getting the multi release.

wiggle.com.au | Shimano SPD MTB Cleats | Pedal Cleats
Falchoon is offline  
Old 04-16-17, 10:19 AM
  #41  
philbob57
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: Chicago North Shore
Posts: 1,016

Bikes: frankenbike based on MKM frame

Mentioned: 4 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 245 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 25 Times in 19 Posts
I had the standard release but kept crashing because I couldn't release my foot from the pedal quick enough. So I suggest getting the multi release.
When I looked at the specs for the multi-release, IIRC, Shimano said no float, which means cleat placement has to be pretty da**ned precise.

That's why I went to flats. Looks a bit funny on my 1973 road bike, but the ability to move my feet around allows me to extend my rides. Besides, no hot spots and no need to buy special shoes.
philbob57 is offline  
Related Topics
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
obie
Foo
0
01-09-09 07:51 AM
oldacura
Recumbent
4
09-10-07 02:12 PM

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright © 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.