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Old 12-26-17, 03:59 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
All very good points. Maybe it's an aside, but is pedaling really greener than electric? When you have to burn calories - no getting around that - and the food consumed is mostly grown using farm equipment, shipped by truck, produced with fertilizer and other resource-consuming chemicals, I think the balance may favor the electric.

All points are spot on, but this one is kind of provocative.
You know, I really appreciate you pointing that out.

The answer is: you might be right!

Remember some time ago, there was a politician who suggested that bikes were no more eco-friendly than cars because cyclists exhaled carbon dioxide? He was roundly criticized and shamed in the social media ... I mean ... who would ever suggest that?

But I got to thinking. Lessee ... me, breathing hard on the way into the office, versus maybe 7 people in a fairly economical minivan. Which produces more CO2 per passenger? I looked it up. The bottom line is that we still produce much less CO2 per person transported than even the most efficient van would. The reason is that the exhaust of the car is almost all CO2 and water. What we exhale is still mostly air with a little bit more CO2 in it. I wish I still had the link, but that was the bottom line.

But that is only CO2 (not all the other stuff like what the environmental cost is in building the bike).

My guess is that how an ebike makes out would depend on how much of the energy is generated by burning fossil fuels versus other sources. The food we eat is of a different class as a source of CO2 than fossil fuels pulled out of the ground (as the growing food scrubs some of it to create oxygen), but as you point out, food does need to be transported and prepared.

Interesting question!
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Old 12-26-17, 04:49 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
All very good points. Maybe it's an aside, but is pedaling really greener than electric? When you have to burn calories - no getting around that - and the food consumed is mostly grown using farm equipment, shipped by truck, produced with fertilizer and other resource-consuming chemicals, I think the balance may favor the electric.

All points are spot on, but this one is kind of provocative.
I like this one. I am going to save the earth's resources by just lying in bed all day.
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Old 12-26-17, 05:01 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Gerryattrick View Post
I like this one. I am going to save the earth's resources by just lying in bed all day.
Heck ... if you're gonna do that, why not create electricity?

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Old 12-26-17, 05:31 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
Proper brakes and tires already exist.

Going 30mph is going 30mph no matter how you attain that speed.
No... "Legal" E-Bike can't go 30 MPH with assist... Even in the USA it's at 28MPH and the "assist" cuts out... Personally I would go with the 32Km/Hr that's 20MPH and with no throttle EU laws, that would be more realistic and more widely excepted by the general bicycling community and people in general, but hey that is JMO...

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Old 12-27-17, 12:21 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
You know, I really appreciate you pointing that out.

The answer is: you might be right!

Remember some time ago, there was a politician who suggested that bikes were no more eco-friendly than cars because cyclists exhaled carbon dioxide? He was roundly criticized and shamed in the social media ... I mean ... who would ever suggest that?

But I got to thinking. Lessee ... me, breathing hard on the way into the office, versus maybe 7 people in a fairly economical minivan. Which produces more CO2 per passenger? I looked it up. The bottom line is that we still produce much less CO2 per person transported than even the most efficient van would. The reason is that the exhaust of the car is almost all CO2 and water. What we exhale is still mostly air with a little bit more CO2 in it. I wish I still had the link, but that was the bottom line.

But that is only CO2 (not all the other stuff like what the environmental cost is in building the bike).

My guess is that how an ebike makes out would depend on how much of the energy is generated by burning fossil fuels versus other sources. The food we eat is of a different class as a source of CO2 than fossil fuels pulled out of the ground (as the growing food scrubs some of it to create oxygen), but as you point out, food does need to be transported and prepared.

Interesting question!
Two small counterpoints:
1. The wasted energy on any given trip is going to be proportional to the wasted mass. An e-bike weighs in at 30-60 pounds and a normal bike weighs in at half that. An electric car weighs in at 3000-6000 pounds. The vehicle is all waste, not payload. Heck, the embodied carbon cost of an electric car are so large that a cyclist may never catch up to those in a lifetime of commuting.

2. In order to be healthy, a human needs a minimum of an hour of relatively vigorous exercise per day, not that many Americans manage that. Therefore, I think it is fair to simply subtract that first hour per day of riding from the energy equation. Note that an hour of exercise is much more than an hour of riding a bike or e-bike in most settings since one isn't really exercising while descending (unless it's a long grade of minimal gradient).
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Old 12-27-17, 05:07 AM
  #81  
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It is extremely extremely unlikely that I would bet an e-bike, but if I did I'd like one that the pros use to cheat. And I'd have to install solar panels to charge the battery.
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Old 12-27-17, 08:40 AM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by 350htrr View Post
No... "Legal" E-Bike can't go 30 MPH with assist... Even in the USA it's at 28MPH and the "assist" cuts out... Personally I would go with the 32Km/Hr that's 20MPH and with no throttle EU laws, that would be more realistic and more widely excepted by the general bicycling community and people in general, but hey that is JMO...
A friend has modified his e-bike to assist to over 40 mph. He said it was easy.
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Old 12-27-17, 08:57 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
A friend has modified his e-bike to assist to over 40 mph. He said it was easy.
That's what I would do. Maybe not to that extreme, but the biggest advantage I would want from an e-bike is the potentially higher speeds.
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Old 12-27-17, 09:12 AM
  #84  
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A couple days ago, I went for a ride on the local and very flat MUP with my family. A lot of other families had the same idea. We rode by a group of people who had DRIVEN to the path and were unloading their bikes--one of which was a electric motor powered bike. About a mile later, the group with the motor bike came up from behind and the motorbike lady scootered by us on the right and then made a left turn without looking to follow her pedaling friends who had passed appropriately on the left and turned safely. I suspect that this lady drives her car the same selfish way and she continues those habits on her two wheeled motorized vehicle. The electric bike salesman will say that that lady would ride a real bicycle in the same manner. I say, that had she become a member of the cycling community, she would be more courteous and aware of her surroundings. And it really pissed me off that some old lady passed me.
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Old 12-27-17, 10:08 AM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
Heck ... if you're gonna do that, why not create electricity?

I try, but my wife is not impressed.
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Old 12-27-17, 10:55 AM
  #86  
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I mostlyride out in farmland north of town. It’s mainly flat. I ride solo and do my 20 – 30 miles at 10MPH. On a certain route there is a hill that I find is too steep for me. I turn 71 on Friday and have no qualms about walking the bike up that hill. The south part of town is hilly and when I go down there I find that if I don’t route my trip with care that there are more hills that I have to walk. If I lived in that area I might consider an e-bike if only to get up the hills. Since I have the option to ride where there are fewer steep hills I don’t ever expect to purchase an e-bike. Not everyone is as fortunate as I am.
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Old 12-27-17, 11:00 AM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by Classtime View Post
A couple days ago, I went for a ride on the local and very flat MUP with my family. A lot of other families had the same idea. We rode by a group of people who had DRIVEN to the path and were unloading their bikes--one of which was a electric motor powered bike. About a mile later, the group with the motor bike came up from behind and the motorbike lady scootered by us on the right and then made a left turn without looking to follow her pedaling friends who had passed appropriately on the left and turned safely. I suspect that this lady drives her car the same selfish way and she continues those habits on her two wheeled motorized vehicle. The electric bike salesman will say that that lady would ride a real bicycle in the same manner. I say, that had she become a member of the cycling community, she would be more courteous and aware of her surroundings. And it really pissed me off that some old lady passed me.
One of my fears about ebikes on MUPs is that it would only be a matter of time before an ebiker would be shouting "single file" to me on the bike path. That happened a couple of weeks ago.

Of course, not 10 minutes later, someone without motor assist did essentially the same thing.

Motorized bike or not, people can be arseholes. But I do think that making the jump to a motorized vehicle makes the transition to arseholedom a bit easier. It is a lot easier to be impatient with people going slower than you when you're having a motor doing the work for you.
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Old 12-27-17, 11:02 AM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
A friend has modified his e-bike to assist to over 40 mph. He said it was easy.
Yea, I had a debate with someone here on that topic some time ago. They were adamant that modifying an ebike to get more speed is too difficult to be a serious problem.

Then I found there were threads on bikeforums dedicated to just that topic, and that he was an active participant in those threads.
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Old 12-27-17, 11:12 AM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
What were you doing that caused two different people to shout “single file” to you while you were riding?
Not riding single file.
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Old 12-27-17, 12:18 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
A friend has modified his e-bike to assist to over 40 mph. He said it was easy.
and... Thus it is now not legally considered an E-Bike, it is now legally considered a moped.
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Old 12-27-17, 12:43 PM
  #91  
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if modern society cannot handle the challenges posed by electric-assist bicycles, maybe it is time for the collapse and fall ......
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Old 12-27-17, 02:18 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by Maelochs View Post
if modern society cannot handle the challenges posed by electric-assist bicycles, maybe it is time for the collapse and fall ......
Society was handling it. Mopeds were not allowed on MUPs or in bike lanes. Then industry got involved and had electric mopeds redefined as bicycles. Now we have a problem.
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Old 12-27-17, 02:24 PM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by Biker395 View Post
Not riding single file.
LoL.
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Old 12-27-17, 03:07 PM
  #94  
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My immediate and initial reaction to e-bikes is negative. In fact, very negative.

I can understand an e-bike could possibly help keep some active who otherwise may not be able to do so by the tradition means of pedaling. Okay, I'll buy that.

Personally, I want to keep the drive to push myself to MAKE myself stay in shape to keep climbing these hills, and the only way to do that is to keep pushing myself to keep climbing these hills and pedaling under my own power.
I could see myself becoming lazy with an e-bike and unwilling to work as hard for the gain and stay in shape, with the result being losing the ability or motivation to keep on keeping on. I rather suspect there are many advocates of the e-bike where that is the motivation...get the benefit without having to work quite as hard for it.
<shrug> Not sure that matters to me or not, nor exactly how I feel about it. All I can control is me.

And so, I think I will resort to what the pros do...

DOPING!!

Hallelujah for Caffeine and ibuprofen!!!
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Old 12-27-17, 03:27 PM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
So why were you blocking the trail to the point that folks had to shout at you?
Ever been riding on the road and someone in a car yells "get off the road"?
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Old 12-27-17, 03:30 PM
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Originally Posted by big john View Post
Ever been riding on the road and someone in a car yells "get off the road"?
Oh Yeah!
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Old 12-27-17, 03:32 PM
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Originally Posted by WNCGoater View Post
My immediate and initial reaction to e-bikes is negative. In fact, very negative.

I can understand an e-bike could possibly help keep some active who otherwise may not be able to do so by the tradition means of pedaling. Okay, I'll buy that.

Personally, I want to keep the drive to push myself to MAKE myself stay in shape to keep climbing these hills, and the only way to do that is to keep pushing myself to keep climbing these hills and pedaling under my own power.
I could see myself becoming lazy with an e-bike and unwilling to work as hard for the gain and stay in shape, with the result being losing the ability or motivation to keep on keeping on. I rather suspect there are many advocates of the e-bike where that is the motivation...get the benefit without having to work quite as hard for it.
<shrug> Not sure that matters to me or not, nor exactly how I feel about it. All I can control is me.

And so, I think I will resort to what the pros do...

DOPING!!

Hallelujah for Caffeine and ibuprofen!!!
A couple tablespoons of honey works for me, but the burst of energy is rather short lived.
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Old 12-27-17, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
So why were you blocking the trail to the point that folks had to shout at you?
Nice accusatory tone.

That is assuming facts not in evidence. I was not blocking the trail nor did anyone have to shout at me.

I typically ride faster than most on the bike path, and when I pass people, usually call out "bike on your left" and pass them. That is what most do. This particular instance, I was riding side by side a friend I happened to encounter on the way to work, and was riding with her at a much slower pace than I typically ride. There was enough room to ride by us by simply moving over.

The point you are missing is that "ride single file" is the kind of thing you hear all the time from motorists on roadways, as they are going faster than you. It manifests ignorance of the law (there is no requirement for us to ride single file) on their part and an attitude that sharing the road means getting out of their way.

In the case of the bike path, there is likewise no requirement to ride single file, and the ebiker was acting just like other motorists do. This was the one and only time I've ever had someone on a bike path tell me to ride single file, and tellingly, it was by someone on a motorized vehicle.

The other guy? Just an arsehole. He complained about us riding slower than he was, but didn't aver that we should be riding single file. My guess is that we added a fraction of a second to his Strava segment. Oh, the humanity.
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Old 12-27-17, 03:52 PM
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Originally Posted by MidSouthBiker View Post
A couple tablespoons of honey works for me, but the burst of energy is rather short lived.
Oh yeah, discovered that too this past season. In one water bottle I put one Nuun tablet and about two big heaping spoons of local raw honey. That stuff is rocket fuel! On any long ride (45+ miles) I carry one bottle of that. But yes, you can actually seem to feel it "wear off".
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Old 12-27-17, 04:20 PM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by TruthBomb View Post
So you were doubled up on a bike path, riding slowly and not aware that you might be considered a hazard by riders approaching from behind. Ok. That happens. They should have just said "on your left."

What I still don't understand is why you are now claiming that folks didn't shout at you when you previously said they did ("an ebiker would be shouting "single file" to me on the bike path. That happened a couple of weeks ago.
Of course, not 10 minutes later, someone without motor assist did essentially the same thing.")
I was surely aware that people might want to pass us. It is incumbent upon them to do so safely.

I don't understand your second paragraph. Let me make this clear:

1. I'm usually the one passing others.

2. That day, I was going slower to ride with a friend I encountered, we were riding side by side, but not blocking the path. Even if we were (and since I am typically riding faster, I encounter this daily), the thing to do is say "on your left" and wait until they move over. I've been at this for 35 years, and I can tell you, that's the bike path etiquette. There is no "adequate adjacent pedestrian facility" in the area, so pedestrians are permitted too.

3. On that day, we were passed by an ebike and told to ride "single file."

4. About 10 minutes later, someone on a non-motorized bike passed us. He didn't tell us to ride single file, but complained that we were going too slow.

5. I've never had anyone complaining that I'm riding too slow on the bike path, because I typically ride faster than most other people.

6. I've also never had anyone tell me to ride single file. I did on that day, and it was by someone riding a motorized vehicle.
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