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"refueling" on an Imperial Century vs. a Metric Century

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"refueling" on an Imperial Century vs. a Metric Century

Old 10-25-20, 11:04 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
I'd say its more the effort to get up the hill, rather than a lack of glycogen, and that takes a focus on conditioning, not nutrition. Get yourself in shape through aerobic and anaerobic training methods so you'll have the endurance and muscle/physiological conditioning to tackle hills on a long ride. As for nutrition, I'd just eat a balanced diet, and maybe eat some extra calories the day before a big ride. Anything I ate just prior to starting a long ride (or during it), including the OPs example of an imperial century, almost certainly won't be digested into usable 'energy' materials until after the ride is done (or near the end for an all-day ride). If I was in shape to do a long ride I'd be more concerned with drinking enough water as dehydration will suck the life out of you faster than a calorie deficit on a one day ride.
Probably we are all looking at different things as the models for our statements. But in general, most of the casual riders I see riding around here struggle to get up a hill because they don't shift to a lower gear. I have to bite my tongue as I pass them on climbs because I can see that they are trying so had to pedal and barely moving, yet they are in a 12, 13 or 14 rear cog. I just want to shout "Shift"

All the muscle conditioning in the world ain't gonna fix that.
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Old 10-25-20, 01:14 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by skidder View Post
I'd say its more the effort to get up the hill, rather than a lack of glycogen, and that takes a focus on conditioning, not nutrition. Get yourself in shape through aerobic and anaerobic training methods so you'll have the endurance and muscle/physiological conditioning to tackle hills on a long ride. As for nutrition, I'd just eat a balanced diet, and maybe eat some extra calories the day before a big ride. Anything I ate just prior to starting a long ride (or during it), including the OPs example of an imperial century, almost certainly won't be digested into usable 'energy' materials until after the ride is done (or near the end for an all-day ride). If I was in shape to do a long ride I'd be more concerned with drinking enough water as dehydration will suck the life out of you faster than a calorie deficit on a one day ride.
I think our definitions of a "big ride" might be at variance. In my world, that's like 100+ miles and say 7000' all the way up to 20,000'. Have a go at 150 miles an 10,000', ride every hill hard as you can, and see what happens. I guarantee it won't be pretty.

You might want to ride some long rides before you decide that calories won't hit your bloodstream until after the ride. I can feel a few swallows of my drink hit in 15'-20', maybe less. The secret is to take however many calories one needs per hour and divide them up into 2 or more doses - I use 4. Otherwise one risks bloating or large blood sugar variations, which one doesn't want. I normally eat before a big ride, but 2-3 hours before, and ~400 calories, so my glycogen is topped up and my blood sugar has spiked and then come back down before the ride.
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Old 12-21-20, 08:36 AM
  #28  
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I'm 69 myself and refuelling on rides is somewhat problematic. I've tried the energy bars, and gels and my stomach has more often than not started making noise (conveying the message "don't do that again"), even energy drinks have to be taken slowly or diluted with water.

What seems to consistently work for me is water for hydration, fruit for rides up to about a 100km. Rides 100km+ I usually pack a small zip lock bag of angel hair pasta tossed in a little olive oil with salt and pepper. Basically about as bland as can be. Have yet to do any rides over 175km so don't know if that is sufficient energy but hoping to put that to the test in 2021 with a 200km+ ride.

Any ride over 100km I take the next day off as a recovery day and just do some stretching and some light hand weights.
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Old 12-21-20, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by volosong View Post
Now at age 69. In the past year, I have ridden several 50-milers and previous to that, Metric Centuries often. I can ride the 50-milers with just two water bottles and on the Metric Centuries, maybe take a granola bar or something. Post ride, I'd drink a lot but otherwise feel fine and recover quickly. Without a lot of terrain, these rides take between about 2.5 and 4.5 hours.

However, on Imperial Centuries, I need to make many more stops and eat frequently. Recovery takes longer too. Assume weather and temperature are not an issue, (not too hot nor too cold).

My question is . . . should I be eating and drinking more on the "shorter" rides? Other than being mildly dehydrated, am I doing my body damage?
Well, the rule of thumb I was always told and to which I follow is 100 calories every 50 minutes which is usually a gel or a couple of fig newtons. Drinking is another issue. I try and work thru a 24oz bottle every 12-15 miles depending upon the heat index.

Now, that is for me and I am 65. My tolerance for heat has gone way down over the years so I need more fluid plus the addition of kidney stones has me needing to drink more. Just because I can make it longer does not mean I should and does not mean it is not dangerous. I have suffered dehydration on a metric century and it was no joke at the finish line. So, I have always been told eat something every 50 minutes and drink, drink, drink even when you are not thirsty. If you get thirsty as we have been told, it is to late and you cannot make it up.

I will admit that it is hard to follow sometimes especially in a pack while having to pay attention to what is going on around you but I usually have to pay a high price for not following my instructions. I should also say it is good to get off the bike every 30-35 miles just to take some pressure off.

Realistically, race organizers put rest stops in their rides for these very purposes. I tend to grab the banana and fill the bottle at the stops and try and keep the down time to 5-7 minutes if they are spaced good enough for me. This is what works for me. It all depends but given my age I do not need to inject any more stress into my body or take unnecessary chances to finish 10-15 minutes earlier and then pay for it over the next few days. I can still manage a 16-18mph pace so that is fine with me.

john
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Old 12-21-20, 12:53 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Vaughan51 View Post
I'm 69 myself and refuelling on rides is somewhat problematic. I've tried the energy bars, and gels and my stomach has more often than not started making noise (conveying the message "don't do that again"), even energy drinks have to be taken slowly or diluted with water.

What seems to consistently work for me is water for hydration, fruit for rides up to about a 100km. Rides 100km+ I usually pack a small zip lock bag of angel hair pasta tossed in a little olive oil with salt and pepper. Basically about as bland as can be. Have yet to do any rides over 175km so don't know if that is sufficient energy but hoping to put that to the test in 2021 with a 200km+ ride.

Any ride over 100km I take the next day off as a recovery day and just do some stretching and some light hand weights.
Stomach problems are due to having too high an osmolality in the stomach. Here ya go:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/N...ietary%20fiber.

Basically you have to drink a lot of water with gels, IIRC they say 6 oz. for 1 gel. Plus it matters a lot what's in the gel. It matters if you're using electrolytes with your water. It matters how hard you're riding. If you can, eat at the tops of climbs, not at the bottom or during unless they are really long.

What's in the gel: Hammer gel is about twice as good as most. Get it in the pint bottle and get one of their 6 oz. squeeze flasks for a dispenser. That might solve your problem right there.
Electrolytes: When folks have stomach trouble, it's usually what I call "sloshy stomach." They drink water and it just sits there, because their stomach osmolality is too high. Usually they ate too much, too quickly. I give them 2 Hammer Endurolytes and tell them to drink plain water for a while. Stomach will empty after maybe 1/2 hour of that. It's important to carry plain water for that eventuality.

The above is why energy drinks don't help and are in fact a no-no. Separate your water, food, and electrolytes on serious rides.

That said, I use liquid food on the bike and also carry plain water. That works, too. I use a mix of maltodextrin powder and why protein, mixed 7:1 by weight. Two cups of this mix is 750 calories, or 250 calories/hour for 3 hours if mixed into a 24 oz. bottle. I've been using that mix for all my long rides for about 20 years. Works good. One still has the necessity to drink plain water with the liquid food or one will get sloshy stomach again. My wife and many riders use Ensure or its generic substitutes instead of my homemade drink. That works, but you have to carry extra bottles, which are heavier than carrying extra powder.
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Old 12-21-20, 02:33 PM
  #31  
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Carbonfiberboy;

That article is a good read albeit I'm going to need to read it a couple of more times to get a fuller understanding. I'm struggling with the concept of high osmolality and stomach issue as you'd think that if a person's stomach emptied fast then they are hydrating quickly if it was straight water or that they were metabolizing the CHO efficiently. I do believe that the CHO type is important as mentioned in the article and some of the weird stuff they put in those bars and gel's I'm not so sure about. That said, cooked angel hair pasta with some salt (I take approx. a cup with me on long rides) does work well and is a pretty pure CHO source. While the energy drinks need dilution I have found that the V8 (smoothed and seasoned) does work wonders for re-energizing me; go figure.

I should really dig out my old college stats books and design an experiment with various foods / drinks consumed over a standardized bike route. That would give the brain a little exercise as well :-)
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Old 12-21-20, 09:42 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Vaughan51 View Post
Carbonfiberboy;

That article is a good read albeit I'm going to need to read it a couple of more times to get a fuller understanding. I'm struggling with the concept of high osmolality and stomach issue as you'd think that if a person's stomach emptied fast then they are hydrating quickly if it was straight water or that they were metabolizing the CHO efficiently. I do believe that the CHO type is important as mentioned in the article and some of the weird stuff they put in those bars and gel's I'm not so sure about. That said, cooked angel hair pasta with some salt (I take approx. a cup with me on long rides) does work well and is a pretty pure CHO source. While the energy drinks need dilution I have found that the V8 (smoothed and seasoned) does work wonders for re-energizing me; go figure.

I should really dig out my old college stats books and design an experiment with various foods / drinks consumed over a standardized bike route. That would give the brain a little exercise as well :-)
V8 is a favorite post-ride beverage for me. It's a good mix of taste, CHO, and electrolyte. Cooked pasta is just a little bit messy to eat out of one's jersey pocket, though I rode with a guy who couldn't finish his pasta lunch and did that. We kid him about it to this day.

Cooked pasta w/o sauce is ~37 calories/oz. When I'm going hard, which is comparatively not that hard due to my age, I need about 200 calories/hour. That's the whole fueling while underway issue right there. If you don't ride long and hard, you might not need to eat anything. On a long ride, after a while one reaches a steady state of input and output. I find that an input of about 1/2 the calories burned is about right. For instance in 2019 I did a 154 mile/9400' ride,10:17 saddle time, 11:41 elapsed time, I ingested ~2250 calories and burned ~4200, that latter number from my power meter, not heart rate. You can see where this is going. This "dosage" scales down and is scalable up to a certain extent. The problem becomes that eventually one can't afford to burn many more calories than one takes in. It is said that RAAM is not a bike race, it's an eating contest.
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Old 12-21-20, 09:50 PM
  #33  
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Saturday I rode 60 miles with 5000 feet of climbing with people who are faster than I am, which isn't a super high bar, btw. I'm 200 pounds and need calories to do climbing and hammering. I had cereal for breakfast, a banana at the start, a Kind bar at 16 miles, a half of a ham and cheese sub, Sun chips and a Dr pepper at 40 miles, and a granola bar before the last climb. Probably only 4 big water bottles since it was cool.
This worked very well for that ride and would work for a century as well.
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Old 12-21-20, 10:40 PM
  #34  
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The point of working on fueling during 50 mile rides is not for 50 mile rides themselves, but to learn how to fuel on longer rides. The goal, on a 50 mile ride, is to finish fully fueled and hydrated for another 50.

The same can be said for 100 miles, if you should want to target a double metric.
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Old 12-22-20, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
V8 is a favorite post-ride beverage for me. It's a good mix of taste, CHO, and electrolyte. Cooked pasta is just a little bit messy to eat out of one's jersey pocket, though I rode with a guy who couldn't finish his pasta lunch and did that. We kid him about it to this day.

Cooked pasta w/o sauce is ~37 calories/oz. When I'm going hard, which is comparatively not that hard due to my age, I need about 200 calories/hour. The problem becomes that eventually one can't afford to burn many more calories than one takes in. It is said that RAAM is not a bike race, it's an eating contest.
Originally Posted by big john View Post
Saturday I rode 60 miles with 5000 feet of climbing with people who are faster than I am, which isn't a super high bar, btw. I'm 200 pounds and need calories to do climbing and hammering. I had cereal for breakfast, a banana at the start, a Kind bar at 16 miles, a half of a ham and cheese sub, Sun chips and a Dr pepper at 40 miles, and a granola bar before the last climb. Probably only 4 big water bottles since it was cool.
This worked very well for that ride and would work for a century as well.
I hadn't thought about calories per hour but I do like the approach. Then it would be just a question of selecting the food a person knows they can manage. Hadn't thought about eating pasta out of my jersey - that made me laugh. I took a conservative approach with a ziplock bag and one of those combo backpacking spoon, knife, forks. Light weight and when done the spoon goes in the bag rolls up to a few grams.

I could go for a peanut butter and honey sandwich vs ham and cheese. Didn't need to hear about the sun chips, potato chips are my weakness, well those along with twizzler licourice.
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Old 12-22-20, 10:04 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Vaughan51 View Post

I could go for a peanut butter and honey sandwich vs ham and cheese. Didn't need to hear about the sun chips, potato chips are my weakness, well those along with twizzler licourice.
On one of those rides where your clothes are salt stained and salt is caked on your face there is nothing like a bag of chips. Salt and vinegar, regular Lay's, Sun Chips, one of life's little pleasures.
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Old 12-30-20, 10:45 AM
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On longer rides, 50 miles or more, I like to stop at a Cafe have a good lunch, take it easy for a while, and then continue. It is like just starting out again for me.
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Old 12-30-20, 12:00 PM
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Originally Posted by pdlamb View Post
Gee, that's why I paid the fee!

I end up trying some new things on supported centuries. A few of them I like. And I discovered pickle juice!

I don’t normally like pickle juice, but one cold March during an unsupported hundred miler I stuffed one of those individually wrapped pickles in my jersey pocket on a whim. I fought a cold head wind for the first half and at mile 50 mark that pickle was the most amazing pickle I ever had Before or since and I downed that remaining pickle juice like a whiskey shot. Haha
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Old 12-30-20, 03:16 PM
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Originally Posted by volosong View Post
Now at age 69. In the past year, and on the Metric Centuries, maybe take a granola bar or something. Post ride, I'd drink a lot but otherwise feel fine and recover quickly. Without a lot of terrain, these rides take between about 2.5 and 4.5 hours.
I'm impressed at age 69, you can ride a metric in 2.5 hours translating into a 24.8 MPH average speed.

I need some of those granola bars!
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Old 12-31-20, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
For an Imperial century, McVitie's Chocolate Digestives. For a metric century, French pastry.
Or a Yooper’s Pasty (when riding in the Upper Peninsula).
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Old 01-03-21, 10:05 AM
  #41  
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One of the strongest rides I know carries a ham & cheese sandwich to eat half way (usually while waiting for me atop the mountain gap).
Myself, it's just a cliff bar at at around 50 miles, an Fig bar at 65. If I can find a store & it's hot, I'll add in a bottle of sports drink or Coke, and a good 'ol fashioned Snickers.
Post ride: if I have a cooler I'd pack a PB&J and probably a chocolate protein milk mix. Or find a burger joint (!)
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Old 01-03-21, 10:30 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by IronM View Post
One of the strongest rides I know carries a ham & cheese sandwich to eat half way (usually while waiting for me atop the mountain gap).
Myself, it's just a cliff bar at at around 50 miles, an Fig bar at 65. If I can find a store & it's hot, I'll add in a bottle of sports drink or Coke, and a good 'ol fashioned Snickers.
Post ride: if I have a cooler I'd pack a PB&J and probably a chocolate protein milk mix. Or find a burger joint (!)
A beastly strong friend of mine takes tuna sandwiches on double centuries. He has finished a double with climbing in less than 9 hours, so I can't argue with his methods.
On shorter rides like 75 or 100 miles he has Payday bars, Cokes and chips, along with sandwiches.
BF member Biker395 is another one who can eat huge amounts of anything and still out climb most of us.
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