rednose

Hi Fellas,
in preparation of a long locked down German winter I'm looking for advise on indoor AI training.

A word of context. It is now months that I do home office. I'm on a lazy side as a habits, so it happens I stay home for days, especially when outside is cold and raining. No need to get out, groceries via internet. Definitly I deserve a couched potato status. 54 years. As a result my body is breaking into pieces. I always feel tired.

I tried Strava and bike on rollers. Cardio and cadence sensor, no power sensor. I started training but after a couple of months I was bored.

What I'm looking at is a sort of 'automatic trainer' that increase\decrease effort of my rollers and or tells me to change the cadence while monitoring my HR.

Naturally I'll need new rollers. I believe there is something like that in zwift in terms of AI trainer....

Anybody willing to share experience or hints about the equipment (and costs)?

Thanks so much in advance!

Stay healthy

r

caloso

There are a number of smart trainers that do what you describe. This blog will tell you everything you'd ever want to know about them. https://www.dcrainmaker.com/2019/10/...2019-2020.html

As for smart rollers, rather than a trainer that holds your bike, I think your choices are more limited.

I use Zwift and have spent a lot more time on it this summer than I would have expected--due to the pandemic and the poor air quality from the fires. I have a "dumb" trainer, in that it does not change the resistance in response to the game, if I want more resistance, I have to either spin up or gear down. But I don't feel like I'm missing much. The Zwift interface is very immersive, especially if you cast it to a big screen.

I have signed up for a structured workout plan in Zwift. I realize that I am not going to get the same benefits as I would from a private coach, but the main benefit for me is the structure. And the time goes quickly on a structured workout as you are always trying to hit the wattage and cadence targets. I recommend it.

MinnMan

There's no technological fix to mask completely that indoor training is, ultimately, boring.

I hope the lockdown doesn't come to Germany or doesn't last long. My daughter is working in a restaurant in Berlin.

jadocs

Yes, there are only two smart power rollers that are worth getting. All others are cheaply made and have plastic parts.

1. InsideRide E-Motion Rollers - with the smart power option
2. TruTrainer Smart Load Rollers

I own the InsideRide E-Motion Rollers. The biggest difference between the two are that InsideRide has "E-Motion" in other words they float forward and back allowing the bike to subtlety move underneath you when you are punchy with the power or get out of the saddle. The TruTrainers have a tubular flywheel that is a lot heavier. This means that you can coast for a heck of a lot longer than the InsideRide rollers. I think the perfect combination would be the TruTrainers with floating capability....but it does not exist. I'm sure someone has made their own platform that allows it to float.

Do not let anyone tell you that these rollers do not have the capability to simulate anything over 10% and therefore are mediocre for indoor training. I challenge anyone to climb Alpe Du Zwift in 100% trainer difficulty on these rollers without putting their foot down to rest multiple times. I bet there is only a very small percentage that could actually do it. Climbing on these rollers is a whole different experience than being on a locked in trainer where being stationary can be use as leverage, and you don't have to worry about balance, or keeping the bike moving. Keeping the bike moving when climbing and reacting to changes in elevation feels 10x harder.

I get the same satisfaction riding smart rollers as I do riding outside. I actually work a lot harder on the rollers.

Carbonfiberboy 

I've been using my ordinary resistance rollers for over 20 years, still not bored. If one is bored, one simply isn't working hard enough, not enough sweat or pain. This fall, I'm trying to build up to 2 hours at 75% FTP with zero increase in heart rate for the last 90 minutes.. Oddly, I don't find that boring. It's interesting.

I much prefer rollers with very light drums and no flywheel effect. That doesn't do a good job of duplicating outdoor feel, but less momentum makes it harder to maintain a steady power level, and harder is better IMO. My saying is, "If it weren't hard, I wouldn't be doing it."

canklecat

Some of my friends who enjoy the camaraderie of group rides seem to benefit from Zwift and Peloton. Depends on whether they prefer self directed rides with online friends, or more formal training sessions with a leader. There's a Zwift group for just about anyone, so don't be discouraged by the serious racing vibe. There's more to it than that.

I'm pretty self motivated and actually need the indoor trainer for easier zone 1/2 sessions. I tend to turn every outdoor ride into a full blown training session. At 62 I can only handle just so many consecutive days of hard workouts before I'm worn out. So I just watch movies or binge watch TV while doing very easy trainer sessions.

rednose

.... I'M SORRY! wrong use of terms. Only now I get that what I meant as rollers is in reality ...

TRAINER :-D

Honestly I was not even aware of "smart" rollers ... Well good for me, another thing to have a look at :-) MANY THANKS!

zacster

I've found having more than one training program available makes it less boring. I've been alternating between Zwift and TheSufferfest for the last few years. I'll do a bunch of Sufferfest videos for a few weeks, then I'll switch to Zwift for some rides, or just alternate as I feel. There is also Rouvy for video simulated training routes that can be really nice but I find the software to be a little flaky. There are a bunch of others too. People that have Peloton swear by it but I found it more geared towards the young spin class crowd, and it is expensive compared to the others. What I like about Sufferfest is that they provide a story line to keep you occupied even if they are kind of hokey, at least on their classic videos. They've gotten away from those a bit. Zwift is good if you can make it social, but I tend to just ride without paying much attention to the others around me. Rouvy has routes up all of the mountains of the world if you want to climb. They all support ERG mode or simulation mode of the trainer, or dumb trainers too. I can ride Central Park in real life or I can ride it in Zwift and they are both pretty much the same, or at least the real sections are, not the elevated sky sections.

Trainer days are approaching, but I'm still mostly outdoors.

deacon mark

Riding on indoor trainer not all that boring it is all about heart rate. Get your HR up and spin do intervals forget distance, and climbing, or anything related to outside except you still are trying to make little circles in the legs smooth. It will make riding outdoors much easier. Great work out. But not a bike ride outside per say.

Ed Wiser

I ride rollers for years and this year bought a Kickr Bike. I love it. With all the different computer training programs now you can get a great work out. I ride every day of the week. Nice to be able to walk upstairs to my workout room and get on the bike whatever the weather is outside.

zacster

What I especially like about the trainer is that you can ride it any time of day too. You can have a full day and just hop on when you're done.

gthomson

I've been Zwifting now for 3+ years and started with a dumb Cyclops trainer and a cheap speed & cadence sensor by Magene. The experience was good enough to inspire me to move onto a mid level, wheel on smart trainer made by Elite. Retails for around $500-600 CDN dollars. I've had for over 2 years now and no complaints about it. It simulates climbs up to 10% grades I believe which is good enough for me. When you're climbing Mont Ventoux you are not looking a higher gradient, that's for sure.

I pay $18.99/month for the Zwift account which you can pause at any time during summer months or if you're away for up to 8 weeks I believe. I figure this is cheaper than a gym membership and way safer as I don't have to leave my home. You have to take advantage of the different programs they offer, join a group ride or even a race, otherwise you are just riding around and essentially spinning which will get boring after a while. Don't get me wrong, it's not a bad thing to do and sometimes when you don't have a ton of energy but you want to get the heart rate up, just jump on the bike and go for a Zwift ride.

Besides, this is the only way I will ever own a Pinarello!! ha ha

rednose

Dears,
I'm trying since 3-4 days zwift. Let's see how develops. So far I've to say I'm not super impressed. Main reason: struggle each session to "connect" the bike. I still have to find the correct sequence of actions that allow for the sensors to be paired.

So far for each session I spend 5-10min. to get the pairing trying to have in different attempts and in different order:
- sensors on
- mobile bluetooth on
- ZC on
- zwift app on
- attempt to pair

May be my set up is a bit borderline, but still ...
- sigma r2duo cadence/speed sensor
- polar oh1 arm heart sensor
- xiaomi Mi MAX android 7.0 mobile phone with zwift companion to get sensor data
- dumb trainer
- imac with osx 10.11.6 to have zwift app running

I also struggle to have the correct rpm/watt requested by zwift, as my 700x35c wheels are not listed. For example yesterday in a training I was asked to produce 120w at 75rpm. But according to zwift I had to be at 79-80rpm to produce 121w. At 78rpm I was producing 118w or so ....

But the major question that remain is: how much should I increase my dumb trainer resistance? If I left it flat, naturally is no effort. To the max my heart would blow up :-) At the moment I set it up something in the lower end. To have a spin down calibration looks smart, but I understand zwift and trainerroad do not use this method anymore (well I did not find it in the setting....)

Ciao!

gthomson

Hrmm, did you do the initial calibration after matching your trainer from Zwift's selection? When I did use sensors with a dumb trainer, I would also experience connection issues but usually it was because the sensor was not transmitting to the laptop running Zwift. Would have to fiddle with the batteries to make sure it was outputting sensor OK. I also used an ANT connecting through a dongle on my laptop.

I find once you get securely connected, it should pick this up each subsequent time without problems.

Regarding tension, the roller should be snug into the wheel. Wheel inflation is also very important and should not be low but up to, or near max PSI. To simulate tension I would just use my gears and go into a smaller cog when going up hills and then largest going down. I know that doesn't make sense but it would then give me the sense of resistance as I was going up a hill.

The smart trainer is a much better experience. You just start up Zwift and hop on your bike and away you go.

ultrarider7

I use an Echelon 3 trainer in the winter here in Minneapolis. No way around it, it is dull. I use the trainer on-line and watch TV for background noise to help alleviate the boredom. Whereas I usually ride around 40-50 miles outdoors and burn 1200-1500 calories, according to Echelon I burn about 500 calories an hour on the trainer. Which explains why I'm usually one of the first out on my bike in the spring and hate like hell to hang it up in the fall.

caloso

I don't have anything to contribute re connection issues. On the power/cadence thing, I also have a dumb trainer. Trainer/tire tension needs to be tight and consistent. Once you've calibrated, try to replicate it each time. Depending on your particular gearing, it's sometimes a challenge to find the right gear that allows you hit both power and cadence targets. If I have to make a choice, I always try to hit the wattage target.

gthomson

This October has been cold & wet here in southern Ontario so Zwifting has started a little earlier than anticipated, which wasn't my plan. It will make for a long indoor riding season that's for sure and by next Spring I will be dying to get outside again.

That being said, I try and join the Zwift events were they do the different route tours or at the very least, jump on a group ride or race. The pace set on those rides which vary from short and fast 30 minute races to hour long rides I'm burning closer to the 1000 calorie mark. Climbing Alpe De Zwift or the dreaded Mont Ventoux can be up to 2.5 hours of climbing and burns thousands of calories.

jadocs

Bluetooth can be a slight PITA when you have connected your sensors to multiple devices in the past. Based off that I recommend the following sequence:

1. Reboot your phone and computer before you attempt anything. Clear all the background apps on your phone first.
2. Turn on Zwift and select where you want your sensors paired. In your case it is the companion app.
3. Make sure all your sensors are within range of the computer (ie. the same room)….for example, I will not put my HR monitor on until I am in the same room...same with cadence.
4. Turn on/wake all your sensors (after you have them all within range) and select them in the appropriate boxes in the pairing screen.

You should be able to connect and ride with little to no fuss. When Bluetooth devices have connected to multiple devices in the past...it can be a PITA because you can never tell when a sensor is trying to connect to a different device...therefore preventing you from connecting to the device you want it to connect too. That's why I recommend #1 above. You may have success by skipping #1 , but sooner or later you will experience a failed pairing because of what I said above. When that happens just clear all the apps and reboot your devices (remember your phone!).

caloso

Good post. I had forgotten about the BT limitation to one device. I had a similar issue when I was trying to use Apple TV and the Kinetic was connecting to the iPad without me realizing it.

gthomson

Zwift was having problems with iPADs for a while as well. I remember avatars would cycle all over the road and then disappear which was a connection issue with the iPAD.

Thomas15

I use a windows laptop running Zwift, that is where I do my pairing and I use an ANT+ dongle. I also run the companion app on an iPhone. I never have any problems getting it up and running over the last week there have been a few issues with the companion app, none with my windows connection. I'm also using a wireless router.

I think that running the program and Zwift on the same machine is asking a lot of that machine. But I have to say, knock on wood, my set up has been very reliable for the last 11 months, i use Zwift on average 6 days a week. My words of wisdom to the OP is try different hook up methods, perhaps if you are using the companion app on the same device as the program try pairing in the program and not using the companion app.

Some users on BF complain that it takes too long to connect. I find that with all of the futzing I have to do getting ready to ride the program is ready before I'm ready.

gios 

My indoor training when I don't ride is rowing. Got a Concept2 Model D in January and it'll start getting used more nowadays. A nice surprise was my wife hops on and I always encourage her. I used to like to drive out to the base and use their sauna - but I can't picture sitting there sweating with a mask on. They have a full gym and I like using the Concept 2 SkiErg - great workout!

rednose

Thanks All for the dongles connection hints. What I found that works is:
1) turn off bluetooth on my mac
2) start zwift app on the mac
3) start ZC on my handy with BLUETOOTH OFF
4) wake up the sensors
5) tap the bluetooth icon in the ZC.
looks like ZC is scanning for device only when BT is switched on within ZC ...
Cheers!

Thomas15

Sounds like you have a workable solution.

rednose

Dear Fellow Riders,

popping here again. Is there any workable answer or "link" to the topic dumb trainer and power anybody is aware of? It seems to me impossible nobody tried to sort it out.

I try to better explain myself:
1) in such "covid times" second hand "smart" trainer prices are out of mind (well at least here in Germany where I live ....)
2) hence I want to keep using my 20 years old super cheap dumb trainer. It is magnetic.
3) it has 15 "steps" or so to increase resistance. After 20 years I can't trust its consistency though ....
4) I use zwift, where the trainer it is naturally not known/supported. In zwift there is no spin down calibration
5) Hence I'd like to draw my dumb trainer specific power curve, well at least some of it (I do not beleive I'll ever user the resistance at its extremes ... the easiest or the hardest)
6) Here is where I get stuck. Knowing the gear I'm using, RPM, the wheel size, the spin down time and assuming the resistance of the bearings (complete rear wheel is new) It should be possible to calculate the watt that have been applied .... well a good estimate

Ideas? :-D

r