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Why I don't use 220-age for HRmax

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Why I don't use 220-age for HRmax

Old 03-17-21, 11:42 AM
  #26  
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Seems to me a zwift pull up simulated 15% (eg Radio Tower) should be looking pretty damned close to MxMR. Or a solid ramp test. After that, I don't care much about any generalized math. AND if you're on high bp meds, this is all silly talk. Since I started on beta blockers, I can't hit 160 regardless.
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Old 03-17-21, 01:07 PM
  #27  
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As I've said before, max HR really isn't a good number for anything. It's just one of those things I view as another "gee whiz" number.

If a person wants to set their zones by HR, then FTHR also considered LTHR will do a person much better. IMO

https://www.trainingpeaks.com/learn/...setting-zones/
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Old 03-17-21, 01:30 PM
  #28  
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the link you give describes a test where you go hard for 10 minuets followed by going hard for another 20 and taking the average HR for the 20. i know they don't mention it but all this hard work probably touches your max HR.

i "climbed" the radio tower twice on Monday and my max was only 150, almost 20 from my observed. for me i think my max happens just after i die on a sprint or kill myself going up a short but steep hill. for the same ride it was 153 up the hill after the KOM in reverse.
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Old 03-17-21, 02:01 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by spelger View Post
the link you give describes a test where you go hard for 10 minuets followed by going hard for another 20 and taking the average HR for the 20. i know they don't mention it but all this hard work probably touches your max HR.

i "climbed" the radio tower twice on Monday and my max was only 150, almost 20 from my observed. for me i think my max happens just after i die on a sprint or kill myself going up a short but steep hill. for the same ride it was 153 up the hill after the KOM in reverse.
My link?

Sure you might hit max HR or pretty close to it, but if you do and don't drop away from your max HR real quick, then you won't make it the full thirty minutes.

I touch what might be my actual max HR quite often during the rides I do. But only briefly as my effort changes for the amount of work I'm putting out.

However for the most part whether you are doing FTP or FTHR (LTHR) then you want to go at the fastest steady HR you can for the full 30 minutes. Spiking your HR during the test might leave you with a lower result than is proper.

Max HR means nothing because it's really about how much volume of blood is pumped. The more cardio fit you are the more volume of blood you'll pump with each beat. So you can do more with less HR.
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Old 03-17-21, 04:18 PM
  #30  
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...do you folks limit your max HR to any level...?
Yes. I can get over-exuberant on a nice day when I'm feeling good. I can keep it up only so long. If I tire myself out during the first half of my ride, I have a hard time getting home. Once I get into decent cycling shape for me, I think I can go twice as far in the 120-130 bpm as I can if I let myself get into the high 130-145 bpm range.
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Old 03-18-21, 10:08 AM
  #31  
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https://www.drmirkin.com/fitness/9156.html
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Old 03-18-21, 10:20 AM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by crowbike View Post
old article but still valid i think.

in summary:

All MHR formulae are based on averages. They can be used to help you plan and monitor your exercise program, but should not be interpreted as absolute limits or goals. If you want to train to become fast, use the following: Three times a week, never on consecutive days, either race or push the pace so that you are at your anaerobic threshold and then use bursts to exceed it to become short of breath. On the other four days, take it easy and do not put pressure on your muscles. The standard Maximum Heart Rate formula (MHR = 220 age) does not apply to highly fit athletes.
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Old 04-15-21, 04:19 PM
  #33  
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When and how do you use your heart rate information ? What number do you try and stick with and why ?

The very few times I sprint I just ignore my garmin. If I was doing all out intervals I would probably just ignore my garmin also.

I seem to be ok 150 to 165 for 2 hours. I have not tried that pace for longer. While if I did over 170+ I would probably fall over after 5 minutes. ha-ha
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Old 04-15-21, 05:43 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by sean.hwy View Post
When and how do you use your heart rate information ? What number do you try and stick with and why ?

The very few times I sprint I just ignore my garmin. If I was doing all out intervals I would probably just ignore my garmin also.

I seem to be ok 150 to 165 for 2 hours. I have not tried that pace for longer. While if I did over 170+ I would probably fall over after 5 minutes. ha-ha
Actually I rarely use a monitor on the road. Seems that the riders I'm around who are riding according to their HR tend to not push as hard or enjoy the act of riding as much. On a stationary, like the Peloton, I check my HR every so often to look at the relationship of my wattage to my HR, and to get a feel for the time to recovery after a hard workout. But for me its just an interesting tool that can detract from the pleasure of the ride or the desire to do an all-out effort at times.
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Old 04-16-21, 04:53 AM
  #35  
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When I've taken my temperature when I've been healthy, I don't think it has ever once read 98.6!

220-HR is kinda like the Max Inflation warning on tires - good for what it was intended for, to keep people from getting close to the range where something might explode. Same for those blood pressure normal zones, etc.

I'm not a racer and I wear a HRM on my rides but don't look at it much while riding - mostly do it so Strava will give me the relative effort/fitness curves I enjoy using to challenge myself.

On my Wahoo Roam I have one screen that is a bar graph of my cumulative time in the various HR zones (based on what I put in as max HR, which is not 220 - age...) and on long rides at my last planned rest stop, I'll often check that screen to convince myself to push hard for the last 20 miles or whatever, vs listen to my tired legs and rear end and take it easy!
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Old 04-16-21, 09:56 AM
  #36  
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Old 04-16-21, 12:36 PM
  #37  
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I don't use an HR monitor. But there have been times where I was riding with someone who was. When it's his turn at the front, he would take a very short turn like 15 seconds then say Oh no, I can't. Doc said don't go over 160 (iirc). He didn't look stressed so I was not sure if his targets were incorrect or he was just being a baby.
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Old 04-16-21, 12:56 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
220 - age = HOGWASH

It is hogwash for cyclists to use, but not for cardiologists. I'm certain they use it, but not certain exactly why they need to. Something about tradition and methodology, most likely.
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Old 04-16-21, 12:59 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by sean.hwy View Post
When and how do you use your heart rate information ? What number do you try and stick with and why ?

The very few times I sprint I just ignore my garmin. If I was doing all out intervals I would probably just ignore my garmin also.

I seem to be ok 150 to 165 for 2 hours. I have not tried that pace for longer. While if I did over 170+ I would probably fall over after 5 minutes. ha-ha
Do you mean to say you actually try to ride outdoors at constant HR?

Why?
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Old 04-16-21, 01:08 PM
  #40  
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Interestingly, 2 months ago, my Cardiologist did some sort of stress test as he wanted to see how my heart was pumping and so forth. They stopped me on the treadmill when my heart rate went to 141 which "they" said would be 90% of my max heart rate. At that point they laid me on a slab and did some ultrasound on my heart at that level.

Doing a little math, the 220 minus my age (65) is almost spot on. That is 155 and then 91 percent of that is 141 and change. So, in my case it was accurate. Turns out my heart action was fine and everything checked out OK.

Translating that to the bike, I rarely go over 145 and then I use 140 as a match burning marker. I have found that I allow myself 6 matches on a 40+ mile ride and if burn those 6 then I usually am going to be in trouble over the last 5 miles. This has worked for 'me'. I can confirm that if I ride in the 140-145 range for too long, I will be toast after a couple of hours so I tend to try and keep it under 140 which puts me in the 80-90% range of max heart rate.

Like folks have said, it works for some and then not so good for others. I could probably push myself over 150 but I am not going to run the risk unless I am being chased by a dog. I'm averaging around a 100 miles a week and this works for me.

john
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Old 04-16-21, 01:33 PM
  #41  
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220 - age is probably more applicable to medical tests that are looking for certain other things to happen at a certain HR. For cycling it's always been bunk. Not sure why it keeps getting put out there by HR monitor makers and others marketing to sports.

220 - age is 157 for me. I just got back from a ride and had 180 to 185 BPM going up a 3.5% grade at 20 mph just a couple hours ago. It sort of surprised me, but I was only 5 minutes into my ride and feeling real good. I think mowing the grass with the walk behind mower for an hour and a half right before my ride just had me all warmed up and ready to go.

Max HR isn't a useful number for cycling and training. It's a bad way to set your zones too IMO. Use LTHR or FTP if you have a power meter.
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Old 04-16-21, 03:07 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by rutan74 View Post
Interestingly, 2 months ago, my Cardiologist did some sort of stress test as he wanted to see how my heart was pumping and so forth. They stopped me on the treadmill when my heart rate went to 141 which "they" said would be 90% of my max heart rate. At that point they laid me on a slab and did some ultrasound on my heart at that level.

Doing a little math, the 220 minus my age (65) is almost spot on. That is 155 and then 91 percent of that is 141 and change. So, in my case it was accurate. Turns out my heart action was fine and everything checked out OK.


Translating that to the bike, I rarely go over 145 and then I use 140 as a match burning marker. I have found that I allow myself 6 matches on a 40+ mile ride and if burn those 6 then I usually am going to be in trouble over the last 5 miles. This has worked for 'me'. I can confirm that if I ride in the 140-145 range for too long, I will be toast after a couple of hours so I tend to try and keep it under 140 which puts me in the 80-90% range of max heart rate.

Like folks have said, it works for some and then not so good for others. I could probably push myself over 150 but I am not going to run the risk unless I am being chased by a dog. I'm averaging around a 100 miles a week and this works for me.

john
I think the math worked out because they were using 220-age as an estimate. I don't think they know what your actual HRMax is, they just said stop at 90% of predicted HRMax. If you haven't tested to exhaustion, you still don't know if 155 is your actual maximum.
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Old 04-16-21, 05:04 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
Do you mean to say you actually try to ride outdoors at constant HR?

Why?
this was pretty flat. I wanted to avg 20 mph for about 36 mile loop. I wanted to pace myself so I could make it the whole way. This was a solo ride so there was
not any reason to pull one moment, then rest another time.

Seems like if my heat rate goes over 170+ I am only good for a few minutes. Dunno have not tried it in a while. Seems like when I keep my heat rate around 150 to 165 I can go for several hours. I guess like someone jogging a fast pace they know they keep for 10+ miles.

How would have you done this ride different




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Old 04-17-21, 01:25 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by sean.hwy View Post
this was pretty flat. I wanted to avg 20 mph for about 36 mile loop. I wanted to pace myself so I could make it the whole way. This was a solo ride so there was
not any reason to pull one moment, then rest another time.

Seems like if my heat rate goes over 170+ I am only good for a few minutes. Dunno have not tried it in a while. Seems like when I keep my heat rate around 150 to 165 I can go for several hours. I guess like someone jogging a fast pace they know they keep for 10+ miles.

How would have you done this ride different




Ok, that's understandable. It would only work in Michigan circling islands, like Mackinaw Island, which has a MUP at water level most of the way around. Wind which is sometimes strong in the middle of one of the Great Lakes, is the main upset in that case. If I had available a similar loop here around something the size of SF Bay, it would be rather hilly since many inland rivers drain into Lake Michigan on one side, Lake Huron on the other, and Lake Superior up top.
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Old 04-17-21, 08:26 PM
  #45  
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I guess the closest thing to a constant HR ride here in SE Michigan is a flat MUP in the Metroparks near Detroit International Airport. We have some significant waterways, mainly the Huron River, but also some pretty flat paths through open fields
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Old 04-18-21, 06:16 AM
  #46  
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The 220-age thing might be a good reference for a couch potato just starting to think about fitness, but it has absolutely no relevance for some of us.

I'm in my 50's with a RHR high 40's - low 50's. BP 110/70.

Most of my riding is a 16km commute to work with 120 m or climbing or so. depending on which bike I ride (often a fat bike) and the ever-present wind here on the east coast it take between 30-45 minutes each way.

I average 180-200 HR on each ride. HR drops really fast when the rides are over, Dr is cool with it, and suggests I should keep at it as long as I can.

My highest-ever recorded HR is a number many don't believe - as they figure you can't hit that number and live. I've got it on Strava, so I know it's real. lmao
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Old 04-20-21, 12:21 PM
  #47  
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If I kept it below "90% of predicted maximum" I wouldn't even get warmed up. I do easy aerobic runs at higher than 220-age start to finish. The formula is utterly useless for any individual purpose.

I've got an idea why doctors would set a 90% of 220-age limit on a treadmill test, and it has nothing to do with the patient. Just a calculation based on malpractice insurance and what percentage of patients are likely to have a heart attack on it. Personally I'd prefer one who's basing decisions on monitoring my heart rather than cya.
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Old 04-20-21, 03:20 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by wphamilton View Post
I've got an idea why doctors would set a 90% of 220-age limit on a treadmill test, and it has nothing to do with the patient. Just a calculation based on malpractice insurance and what percentage of patients are likely to have a heart attack on it. Personally I'd prefer one who's basing decisions on monitoring my heart rather than cya.
When I had my stress echo, it was only coincidence I saw a doctor -- in the hall on my way in. It was just techs and aides in the room with me. I suspect the formulaic approach is something that's reasonable for some slice of the population, as long as you've got an experienced tech (as mine was) watching the pace, climb, and heart rate. If I'd leveled off earlier and been turning red in the face, I suspect she would have terminated the stress part early. Since my HR was still climbing she stopped when I hit that magic pulse.

If you were on the medical team, would you believe an old man coming in and telling you his maximum pulse was 20 bpm higher than the formula? It could be me (trained cyclist), or it could be macho man still hung over from last night!
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Old 04-20-21, 03:23 PM
  #49  
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I can ride at 220-age all day long
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Old 04-20-21, 04:06 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by spdntrxi View Post
I can ride at 220-age all day long
One one 3-day ride, in my 50's:
day 1 - 5:30 duration, avg HR 161, max 193
day 2 - 7:12 duration, avg HR 153, max 180
day 3 - 7:27 duration, avg HR 135, max 160 (not as much climbing but 5+ hours of crazy headwind)
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