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Dogs.

Old 06-30-21, 08:50 PM
  #26  
Helderberg
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Regarding multiple dog confrontations... this is based on years of working around many dogs, as a dog owner and working for veterinarians.

A reliable way to distract them is to hurt one of the dogs badly enough that it yelps in fear and darts away. This often triggers a primitive shark-brain instinct in the other dogs and they're likely to turn and attack the injured dog. It works best if the injured dog bleeds a little. I know it sounds cruel but we're talking about a scenario in which you are at risk of serious injury or death.

It's an odd thing to witness but I've seen it many times. Dogs will viciously attack their own siblings and packmates if one of them is injured, especially enough to draw blood. I've seen it with my own basset hounds years ago -- the female nearly killed her brother after he was injured slightly by a barbed wire fence drawing a little blood. After that attack she kept repeatedly attacking her sibling and I finally had to split up the pair.

And I saw the same thing with a relative's pair of bird dogs. One of them caught a birdshot pellet in the paw while hunting. We're certain the dogs were well off to the side but my best guess is some of the birdshot ricocheted off a rock in the field and nicked the dog's paw -- it was just barely under the skin. But these formerly loving and gentle dogs turned vicious in an instant and the other nearly killed the injured dog.

Again, it may seem like a cruel tactic to deliberately hurt one dog enough to draw blood, but when confronted with two or more dogs it may save your life.
This is good information but, to be honest, I don't know if I could do it. That said if it came down to my life or the dogs the dog is going down.
Frank.
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Old 06-30-21, 10:27 PM
  #27  
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At 90įF and high humidity the Dobermans were probably sitting under a tree drinking German beer watching the Chihuahuas knock themselves out... ha

Had an old blond Lab come after me once barking slowly and doing his best to keep up. After about a 100 meters he just nose dived into the weeds. I turned around and went back to check on him. Ended up giving him some water and walking him back home... Nice Dog...
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Old 07-01-21, 07:18 AM
  #28  
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I got taken out by a young Doberman while I was doing 40 km/h and accelerating. That's a solid 25 mph.

The dog ran parallel to me in a field across the road for 1/4 km (~820 feet, 273 yards), came out a driveway, crossed the road and impacted me around the pedals. I didn't see it (although my helmet camera captured it nicely) until the point of impact.

Collapsed lung, 9 ribs fractured in 15 places, unknown brain trauma (lost consciousness at least twice)

Pepper spray isn't allowed here. Bear spray is expressly prohibited - no bears here. Dog spray is a grey area - sort of legal but you can be charged and convicted under bizarre "weapon for unlawful purposes" or "weapon dangerous to the public". Simply put it is illegal in Canada to carry anything for the purpose/intent of self defense***. You may use a weapon for self defense but you cannot bring something along... compounded by the fact that cops/judges will decide after the fact if the force used was acceptable under the circumstances. Even if you win the fight you will likely be broke. fun!

*** certain cases are allowed IE: bear spray if in the woods where bears are known/expected to be. Carry it downtown in a big city and you have no defense. Dog spray *might* be allowed (again, you'll never know until it's too late) in some circumstances. Doesn't matter if you bought it legally - it may or may not be legal to have on you or use

Fun fact - if you use something like pepper/dog/bear spray against a person the charge/penalty is essentially the same as shooting them. IE: you're probably off to jail and even if you do successfully defend yourself you will be made an example of via the "punishment by process" approach to justice we have here.

On a local level, the authorities here do not consider any negative interactions with dogs to be an "attack" unless/until you have punctures in your skin from the animal. My last negative interaction was when walking on the road - a large GSD type dog came charging out of its yard, teeth bared, snarling and barking. Fearing for my safety I held it off for way longer than I wished the confrontation to go on for with a pocket knife. The dog kept circling and fake-lunging but never got close enough to get cut. Dog owner eventually got control of the animal,I put my pocket knife back in my pocket, we exchanged poorly-chosen words in the heat of the moment and I went on my way. Shortly after I got home the cops arrived with the intent to arrest me for uttering threats while holding a weapon. They were told I went on to their property and attacked their dog then threatened them.

Eventually the cops agreed it didn't make sense that I would randomly set out to attack an unfamiliar dog, that I didn't even know existed, owned by people I had never seen or heard about previously.

So what you do - or even can do - depends on where you are, who you are and all sorts of other circumstances. In my most-recent cycling/dog incident I was going 40km/h (25mph) and still got tagged. No way I could have out-sprinted that dog even if I had seen it in time. Perhaps I could have sprayed it with something. Maybe I could have fought it off if I stopped. Maybe I'd be arrested for killing a dangerous dog... and broke defending myself.

I'm still more likely to get tagged by a drunk driver.

And I keep riding.

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Old 07-01-21, 01:56 PM
  #29  
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WOW, sounds like I should sell my bikes and buy a Peloton. Just joking but it sounds like I need to allow myself to be taken down by a dog and still need to have it on camera and have a few thousand set aside to cover legal defense.
I will try to stay away from dogs on my rides and hope the water is enough to stop an attack.
Be safe all, Frank.
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Old 07-01-21, 03:06 PM
  #30  
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The last dog episode I had involved a German Shepherd named Apollo that chased me down a two lane road. This dog kept coming. I yanked it over to the far side of the road. I was sure I was going to have to run a red light at the four lane divided highway that was coming up. The next time I looked back the dog had broken it off. Some doorknobs in a car that stopped at the light next to me thought it was funny.

Back in the day I was bitten by a German Shepherd while driving deliveries.
Nope, it''s not funny.

When I called the police for the village where it occurred, the call taker wasn't going to have an officer respond unless I signed a complaint. This despite the fact that unleashed dogs are clearly prohibited by the village's own ordinances.
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Old 07-01-21, 03:14 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Regarding multiple dog confrontations... this is based on years of working around many dogs, as a dog owner and working for veterinarians.

A reliable way to distract them is to hurt one of the dogs badly enough that it yelps in fear and darts away. This often triggers a primitive shark-brain instinct in the other dogs and they're likely to turn and attack the injured dog. It works best if the injured dog bleeds a little. I know it sounds cruel but we're talking about a scenario in which you are at risk of serious injury or death.

It's an odd thing to witness but I've seen it many times. Dogs will viciously attack their own siblings and packmates if one of them is injured, especially enough to draw blood. I've seen it with my own basset hounds years ago -- the female nearly killed her brother after he was injured slightly by a barbed wire fence drawing a little blood. After that attack she kept repeatedly attacking her sibling and I finally had to split up the pair.

And I saw the same thing with a relative's pair of bird dogs. One of them caught a birdshot pellet in the paw while hunting. We're certain the dogs were well off to the side but my best guess is some of the birdshot ricocheted off a rock in the field and nicked the dog's paw -- it was just barely under the skin. But these formerly loving and gentle dogs turned vicious in an instant and the other nearly killed the injured dog.

Again, it may seem like a cruel tactic to deliberately hurt one dog enough to draw blood, but when confronted with two or more dogs it may save your life.
Thanks for that perspective. In my attack, the pitbull was pretty good until the little white thing started yapping and riled the other two up. The little white thing was the boss, I could tell that right away. I was thinking of punting it because the other two were on the other side of my bike. My sense was apparently right. There was no way to outrun them, which is why I dismounted.
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Old 07-01-21, 07:13 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Thanks for that perspective. In my attack, the pitbull was pretty good until the little white thing started yapping and riled the other two up. The little white thing was the boss, I could tell that right away. I was thinking of punting it because the other two were on the other side of my bike. My sense was apparently right. There was no way to outrun them, which is why I dismounted.
I totally agree that you ultimately have to look out for your own welfare. It's just unfortunate that the poor animal pays for its stupid owner.
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Old 07-02-21, 07:39 AM
  #33  
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker View Post
Pepper spray isn't allowed here. Bear spray is expressly prohibited - no bears here. Dog spray is a grey area - sort of legal but you can be charged and convicted under bizarre "weapon for unlawful purposes" or "weapon dangerous to the public". Simply put it is illegal in Canada to carry anything for the purpose/intent of self defense***. You may use a weapon for self defense but you cannot bring something along... compounded by the fact that cops/judges will decide after the fact if the force used was acceptable under the circumstances. Even if you win the fight you will likely be broke. fun!
We have an expression here: "Better to be judged by twelve than carried by six."
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Old 07-03-21, 05:05 PM
  #34  
DangerousDanR
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Originally Posted by Bearhawker View Post
... Pepper spray isn't allowed here. Bear spray is expressly prohibited - no bears here. Dog spray is a grey area - sort of legal but you can be charged and convicted under bizarre "weapon for unlawful purposes" or "weapon dangerous to the public". Simply put it is illegal in Canada to carry anything for the purpose/intent of self defense***. You may use a weapon for self defense but you cannot bring something along... compounded by the fact that cops/judges will decide after the fact if the force used was acceptable under the circumstances. Even if you win the fight you will likely be broke. fun!

*** certain cases are allowed IE: bear spray if in the woods where bears are known/expected to be. Carry it downtown in a big city and you have no defense. Dog spray *might* be allowed (again, you'll never know until it's too late) in some circumstances. Doesn't matter if you bought it legally - it may or may not be legal to have on you or use

Fun fact - if you use something like pepper/dog/bear spray against a person the charge/penalty is essentially the same as shooting them. IE: you're probably off to jail and even if you do successfully defend yourself you will be made an example of via the "punishment by process" approach to justice we have here.

...
I love visiting Canada, but really WTF!

I was attacked by a dog last week on the route I have ridden for years, so I decided to mount a Silca Tattico pump where I can reach it while riding. "Ooooh nooo officer. This is not a collapsible baton. It is a bicycle pump, eh!"
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Old 07-05-21, 04:51 PM
  #35  
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There are some great ideas here.

As a dog lover, I'd like to bring up a couple of points. First, the dog breed isn't as important as the dog's behavior. Pit bulls and Dobermans aren't necessarily any more aggressive than other dogs. Most encounters with dogs while we're on bikes will be either because the dog is territorial and we're in the dog's territory or the dog is chasing us because bicycles resemble prey. As several people have said, stopping and putting the bike between you and the dog is often effective.

Second, responsible dog owners are as frustrated with irresponsible dog owners as cyclists are. Irresponsible dog owners only care about themselves. Dogs belonging to responsible dog owners can also get loose, but their owners will be much easier to talk to.
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Old 07-05-21, 05:46 PM
  #36  
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Dogs? Pfft. Saw this guy two years ago while on tour. Fourth bear sighting in two years.


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Old 07-05-21, 06:28 PM
  #37  
writespeak
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Dogs? Pfft. Saw this guy two years ago while on tour. Fourth bear sighting in two years.
What is the closest you've been to a bear? Did any of them chase you?
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Old 07-05-21, 07:59 PM
  #38  
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Bears have never bothered me unless they're with cub, but cats are a whole nother issue. They're just plain mean.
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Old 07-05-21, 08:34 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by Bigbus View Post
Bears have never bothered me unless they're with cub, but cats are a whole nother issue. They're just plain mean.
When I was in business I had two very interesting encounters with cats but that is for another posting.
I did not mean to insinuate that Pitbulls or Dobermans were evil. I was only stating that the encounter would have been very different, I would not be laughing, if the dogs that ran after me were the size of a Pitbull, etc.
I have what looks like a very fluffy pup but he could do some damage to a person on a bike just for trying to be their new friend. I have nothing against dogs, have two cats and yes, they absolutely can be mean if so inclined.
Be safe all, Frank.

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Old 07-06-21, 07:08 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by writespeak View Post
What is the closest you've been to a bear? Did any of them chase you?
About 25' back in 2017. Awoke to find that he had raided the trash dumpsters at a private campground in NW PA. It was still dark. Kept my head on a swivel as I made breakfast and packed up. Figured he had left the area. Walked the bike around to the front of the campground near the dumpsters and leaned it up against a bench as I was preparing to put on my helmet and switch on my lights. That's when I heard the clinking of bottles. He walked out from between the two dumpsters. Had to be at least 600 lbs. It was mid September so he was fattening up for hibernation. We stared at each other fro about 5 seconds, then I started to back away slowly. Guess he realized what a bad ass I am and meandered off into the woods.

Took this photo after the coast was clear. That big dark splotch near the plastic plate is a pile of scat. There was another pile not that far from my tent.






Two days later I another from a much safer distance. He was on the bank of the creek along a bike trail. I sneezed and spooked him. Jumped into water and swam across. (You can see the ripples in the water.) Nearly wiped out when I slammed on the brakes so I could get the camera out and snap some photos before he disappeared into the brush. Funny thing is that I once spent a week in the backcountry of Glacier National Park and didn't see one darn bear, but I have seen two while riding in New Jersey, which is the most denseley populated state in the country.


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Old 07-06-21, 06:30 PM
  #41  
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I frequently encounter black bears while mountain biking. Iíve never had a hostile encounter although one was aggressive in the sense that he would not back down and run away for a while. When hiking Iíve had the odd one huff and slap the ground and one even growled at me when I blundered off trail about 3 meters (10 feet) from him.

On one occasion I recall while biking we came across a mother and two cubs. The cubs ran uphill to the left and the mother down to the right. We stopped and waited. A few minutes passed and the motherís head came out of the brush, checked the trail and she dashed across to the area the cubs had gone. It probably would have been fine to ride between them but why stress the animals? Give them a second and theyíll work it out.

Now loose vicious dogs are a different story and the reason I have a 14 inch scar and a metal mesh shoulder with progressive joint degeneration!
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Old 07-06-21, 07:35 PM
  #42  
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US centric response.

I grew up in Indiana, and rode extensively in Indiana, Kentucky, and Ohio. The land of uncontrolled rural and suburban dogs, and antisocial dog owners. I've been concussed and bitten, suffered road rash and been threatened by an armed father/son duo unhappy with how I handled their aggressive dog. Most healthy dogs can outrun any cyclist. Most dogs will end the chase when they've chased you off their territory. Chasing dogs will usually exhibit one of these behaviors:

Just chase. No worries, except for their safety if they run across a road, or your safety if you're distracted.

Nip. Results in ankle and lower leg bites.

Herd. They'll try to get a nose in front of you, then force you to turn. Results in crashes.

Sprinting out of their territory can be successful depending on the timing, grade, etc. It can go badly however, with either nipping or herding dogs. I've found Halt pepper spray effective, if you can hit them square in the face.

Such dogs are often accompanied by hostile humans. They are also territorial, with their territory extending to the county line or some other human boundary. Their behavior generally follows one of these patterns:

Cluelessness. "He's a nice dog" as he bites your thigh.

Denial. They don't know who's dog that was.

Blame. You did something wrong to trigger the four legged family member's behavior.

Territorial. WTF are you doing in their road/county/neighborhood.

Aggression. Threats of violence, pairing with weapons, chasing with vehicles.

Or combinations of the above.

Advice:
1. Carry Halt or similar, if legal. Use it.
2. Sprint only if certain you can get away.
(Scream GO HOME or calmly say "nice puppy" combined with the above, as inclined)
3. Get off the bike, and use it as a shield. Walk out of their territory.
4. Contact the authorities and tell them there is an aggressive dog in the road.

Twenty years ago I would have said contact the owner. My experience is the owners know what their dogs are doing, and approve.
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Old 07-06-21, 11:54 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by downtube42 View Post
...Twenty years ago I would have said contact the owner. My experience is the owners know what their dogs are doing, and approve.
Yup, that was my experience too living in a rural area.

About 20 years ago a neighbor's free-range dog killed a lot of our chickens. I tried everything short of shooting it but nothing discouraged the dog. Once they get a taste of blood it's difficult to restrain them without professional training. This went on for weeks or months.

One night returning home I found our pet tom turkey mutilated and minutes from death. It usually roosted on the gate nearest the hen house, or in the low tree branches. He was pulled down by the tail, missing most of his tail feathers and breast feathers. My grandson was with me and was traumatized -- for months afterward he asked about the turkey. I followed the trail of feathers and blood to the same neighbor's gate.

I drove to the neighbor's house and showed him the turkey. He just laughed and said "Git off mah property." His little girl was standing by him. I doubt he realized or cared how dangerous the dog could be toward his own kids. But I knew how dangerous that dog could be to my grandsons and grandmother, who lived nearby.

Next day a sheriff's deputy warned the guy, told him not to be surprised if the dog was shot if it was on someone else's property. And the dog would be picked up by animal control if they found it off his property.

A week, and a few more dead hens later, I saw the dog chasing my grandmother who was on her riding mower. That dog went home with birdshot in its haunches. Not dead, but not feeling too well.

After that I kept some serious firepower by the door nearest the garden and was not in the mood to give the dog or the man another warning.

I never saw the dog off the chain in the guy's backyard again. And they moved not long afterward, thankfully.

I never felt good about that whole mess. There's never any satisfaction in being forced to harm a pet that doesn't know any better.. Dogs are only as good or bad as their owners. That guy was one of the worst I've encountered. And not at all unusual in meth country.
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Old 07-07-21, 01:00 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
Yup, that was my experience too living in a rural area.

About 20 years ago a neighbor's free-range dog killed a lot of our chickens. I tried everything short of shooting it but nothing discouraged the dog. Once they get a taste of blood it's difficult to restrain them without professional training. This went on for weeks or months.

One night returning home I found our pet tom turkey mutilated and minutes from death. It usually roosted on the gate nearest the hen house, or in the low tree branches. He was pulled down by the tail, missing most of his tail feathers and breast feathers. My grandson was with me and was traumatized -- for months afterward he asked about the turkey. I followed the trail of feathers and blood to the same neighbor's gate.

I drove to the neighbor's house and showed him the turkey. He just laughed and said "Git off mah property." His little girl was standing by him. I doubt he realized or cared how dangerous the dog could be toward his own kids. But I knew how dangerous that dog could be to my grandsons and grandmother, who lived nearby.

Next day a sheriff's deputy warned the guy, told him not to be surprised if the dog was shot if it was on someone else's property. And the dog would be picked up by animal control if they found it off his property.

A week, and a few more dead hens later, I saw the dog chasing my grandmother who was on her riding mower. That dog went home with birdshot in its haunches. Not dead, but not feeling too well.

After that I kept some serious firepower by the door nearest the garden and was not in the mood to give the dog or the man another warning.

I never saw the dog off the chain in the guy's backyard again. And they moved not long afterward, thankfully.

I never felt good about that whole mess. There's never any satisfaction in being forced to harm a pet that doesn't know any better.. Dogs are only as good or bad as their owners. That guy was one of the worst I've encountered. And not at all unusual in meth country.
I spent part of my childhood living in the city, and part living on the family farm in SE Missouri. Messed up parents, but that's another story. The rural midwest in the late 60's and early 70's was a place of small family farms. A stranger traveling through was looked at with wonder and curiosity, and would be welcome to have a drink of water and enjoy the shade. Doors didn't have locks, keys were in the ignition, the diesel tank unlocked. Of course bad things happened; people are people. But the overriding culture was one of kindness, community, friendship. We had dogs for sure, dogs for fetching cows and keeping the varmint population down. In the late 70's, things started to change. The family farms were going bankrupt, or in some cases the kids just decided to go into town rather than continue farming. Corporations bought up the tillable land, and a new type of people moved into the old farmsteads. Town people, who bought the old farmhouse and untillable land around it for a song. They had town jobs, but hated the town. Diesel fuel started disappearing. Antiques disappeared from sheds that had been open for a half-century. At the same time, they'd have mean dogs on their properties, not working dogs but dogs that seemed to serve no purpose but to be aggressive. The things we'd treasured, the small wooded areas along the creeks, the ponds where we fished and gigged frogs, the old barns where we worked and played - they were neglected at best, trashed, and sometimes destroyed for no reason anyone could see. Occasionally I go back to see cousins in the area, and it's sickening to see what's happened. I swear some people trash the land out of spite, just because they can. There are a few old farms out there, run by families. They have their diesel fuel locked up, equipment sheds closed and locked, car doors locked, farmhouse buttoned up, and they don't trust strangers.

/old man rant
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Old 07-07-21, 07:59 AM
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Originally Posted by Bigbus View Post
Bears have never bothered me unless they're with cub, but cats are a whole nother issue. They're just plain mean.
A couple of days ago a woman was attacked and killed by a grizzly while in her tent during a bike trip. Happened around 3:30 am very close to Ovando, MT, which is not that far from Missoula and is a popular stop for cyclists. Other campers were close and apparently drove it off with bear spray, but not before it was too late to save her. Authorities have been searching for the bear and have set traps with the goal of destroying it.

My cat is a sweetie. He's a big old cream puff.
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Old 07-08-21, 09:24 AM
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Harsh words. Bike as a shield. Pepper spray.
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Old 07-08-21, 06:46 PM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
A couple of days ago a woman was attacked and killed by a grizzly while in her tent during a bike trip. Happened around 3:30 am very close to Ovando, MT, which is not that far from Missoula and is a popular stop for cyclists. Other campers were close and apparently drove it off with bear spray, but not before it was too late to save her. Authorities have been searching for the bear and have set traps with the goal of destroying it.
That is sad.

The key word here is "grizzly." Black bears usually leave people alone unless they're surprised or have cubs nearby. Grizzlies are unpredictable.

Then again, all types of bears are attracted to the smell of food.

I'm wondering if the woman had food or anything else with a smell (e.g., deodorant, toothpaste) in her tent. Nothing that has a smell, even clothing that food spilled on, should be kept in a tent in bear country. Once I even heard of a woman who was camping waking up to a bear licking her face because she'd put on face cream before going to sleep.
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Old 07-08-21, 06:51 PM
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Originally Posted by downtube42 View Post
Twenty years ago I would have said contact the owner. My experience is the owners know what their dogs are doing, and approve.
There are very different kinds of dog owners, just like there are different kinds of cyclists. The responsible ones appreciate those who are also responsible, and they're frustrated that irresponsible ones give them a bad name.

Anyone's dog can get loose despite the owner's best efforts, but only irresponsible dog owners don't make the effort and don't care what harm their dogs may cause because of the owner's irresponsible behavior.
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Old 07-09-21, 07:37 AM
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Originally Posted by writespeak View Post
That is sad.

The key word here is "grizzly." Black bears usually leave people alone unless they're surprised or have cubs nearby. Grizzlies are unpredictable.

Then again, all types of bears are attracted to the smell of food.

I'm wondering if the woman had food or anything else with a smell (e.g., deodorant, toothpaste) in her tent. Nothing that has a smell, even clothing that food spilled on, should be kept in a tent in bear country. Once I even heard of a woman who was camping waking up to a bear licking her face because she'd put on face cream before going to sleep.
Update: The woman was camping in town. There was a couple camping there as well. Food in both tents when the bear first showed up. After it initially left they secured their food and went back to sleep in their tents. The bear later returned. Hard to tell exactly how long that was, but seemed to be about 30 min. Bear attacks woman, dragging here from her tent. Couple hears what is going on and drives away the bear with their spray.

That town is on the fringe of a massive wilderness area that is a grizzly re-introduction area. I am going to go out on a limb and speculate that they were lulled into a false sense of security because they were in a town and not in the forest and felt no need to secure their food before turning in. Even in a packed, developed campground somewhere like Glacier National Park (home to many black and grizzly bears) the rule is that if you are not actively cooking or eating food it must be properly secured. Get caught violating that rule and you will get a stern reminder from campground hosts and/or rangers and possibly a ticket. Every time I have camped there during bike tours campground hosts have made rounds reminding people about the rule. The second day I was ever there two women pulled into a campsite. They put a picnic basket on the table, just like in a Yogi Bear cartoon. Then one went to use the bathroom and the other the pay phone. A couple of minutes after they left a ranger just happened to drive through on patrol. She was pissed. First she asked me if the basket was mine. I told her what had happened. She started carrying the basket away when one of the women came running back. The ranger issued some sort of written citation. Could have just been a warning.

In this case, an animal like that that has left the safety and seclusion of vast forest to enter a developed area is likely going to be trouble. The last thing I do after learning he's around is go back to sleep in my tent, especially if it had recently had food in it.

Sounds like some bad decisions were made.
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Old 07-09-21, 08:20 AM
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Originally Posted by indyfabz View Post
Sounds like some bad decisions were made.
Wilderness camping is a whole other experience compared to the more civilized type of camping that many people are used to. I can see how the campground being in or near a town could give some people a false sense of security. It's sad that someone lost her life probably because she didn't fully understand the importance of following precautions to the fullest extent.
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