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Older not Slower?

Old 08-01-21, 10:00 AM
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Older not Slower?

Is the gradual slowing and power loss as we age inevitable?

Can we still ride at a high level into our 60s and beyond? Can we get faster?

My tentative answer, with a data set of size one, is "maybe?".

I'm just shy of 63, and yesterday I set a personal best time up a local steep road (Tunitas Creek, 1.2 miles, 9.4%). 11% faster than two months ago, and better than my previous best time in 2019. On each attempt, I rode with almost the same heart rate (141bpm) and effort (tempo), but yesterday I just had more power.

I can't explain the reason for the improvement, but it sure feels good to know that I'm getting even a little bit stronger.

Has anyone else seen improvements in their performance over time?
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Old 08-01-21, 10:22 AM
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At 63 I was faster and stronger on the bike than I'd ever been. It's been all downhill from there.
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Old 08-01-21, 10:48 AM
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I've thought about trying "Masters Racing", but man, those guys aren't slow.
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Old 08-01-21, 11:01 AM
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There are not a lot of studies or data from lifelong athletes. Most of the 10% loss per decade statements that I read come from studies of non-athletes or athletes who gave up. I don't buy the 10% loss in aerobic power per decade. That would mean I should have suffered around a 30% loss from my youthful FTP, which is purely impossibly based on performance. I used to estimate power using a hill and stop watch and have a good guess what it used to be. I have no proof but I know my power is not off 30%. No way. I did 18.1 METs on a stress test with a sports cardiologist and Garmin tells me my VO2 max is over 60. I am not sure they are accurate but the point is..... no way the 10% loss per decade is accurate for me.

I looked into this aging and performance question pretty carefully and it seems a more typical range is 0.2-0.4% per year after about age 35 for athletes who keep the intensity and volume up over the years. There was a lifelong marathoner who recorded his VO2 max until he was like 90 and recorded 0.2% loss per year and I read Andrew Coggan is averaging 0.22% loss per year and a legendary British TT who lost 0.3% per year. Etc. So, 2-3% loss per decade seems doable at least until age 65. If someone started riding again at age 55 after a 20 year break in serious training, it might take 5 years of hard training to reach true potential. It also seems that after 65, the rate of decline increases. I don't know why. More injuries? I do know that it is harder to come back from injury or surgery compared to when young. I am doing that now myself. It has taken a while but I am coming back. I like to say the motor is good but the chassis has some rust on it. I found it is important to know when to rest. I had 4 PB on hills yesterday and decided my body needs a rest.

Edit Note: I seem to recall that Andrew Coggan stated his decline in mL of O2 per year and I estimated it to a percentage.....so, I am not 100% sure on that

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Old 08-01-21, 11:03 AM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
I've thought about trying "Masters Racing", but man, those guys aren't slow.
I went back and did some crits a few years ago and no, they are not slow. I sucked.....wheel. But, many of those old guys were all Cat 1 or 2 in their prime and a couple raced internationally. I'd say we were doing a little more than 1 mph slower than the younger kids but not 3-4 mph.
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Old 08-01-21, 11:30 AM
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70 here. No speed demon, never was. But I can still climb hills as good as many, better than some. One paved hill that I see riders on mtn bikes using the lowest gear to go up, I climbed in the middle ring on my LeMond road bike the other day (standing, but still, wasn't the granny gears). Think much depends on genes and how active you've stayed. I've always been on the slim side, couldn't gain weight if I wanted, and have always remained active. So, in my opinion, some of it is up to heredity, and some on how hard you work at it.
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Old 08-01-21, 11:33 AM
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I’m guessing there’s a reason we don’t see many 60 year olds competing in the Olympics.
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Old 08-01-21, 11:52 AM
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If you are faster in your 60’s than in your 20’s, then you weren’t very fast in your 20’s.

I was surfing with my kids when I was in my 50’s and used to laugh at the old guys wearing “Old Guys Rule” T-shirts with a surfboard on it.

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Old 08-01-21, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
Iím guessing thereís a reason we donít see many 60 year olds competing in the Olympics.
Ok, so the Olympics have changed a bit over the years.

Oscar Swahn, Olympic Gold at 64 years and 258 days of age, Olympic Silver at age 72.

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Old 08-01-21, 12:47 PM
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At 59, for me it's all about recovery. Can I put in as much effort as I want and still recover quickly? That's been my goal for the last few years. I've seen a slight decline in muscle strength since 50, but my endurance is better.

However my daily commute ended last year and I no longer ride daily or as often.
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Old 08-01-21, 12:47 PM
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Just checked my journal and ..... on average I'm slightly faster this year than I was a year ago.
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Old 08-01-21, 01:05 PM
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Ok, so the Olympics have changed a bit over the years.

Oscar Swahn, Olympic Gold at 64 years and 258 days of age, Olympic Silver at age 72.

Not to disparage the Olympian. It was for shooting. Still a great feat but with a bit less cardio involved.

At least it wasnít for fishing. Which I understand was petitioned for inclusion in the 2020 Olympics.

John
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Old 08-01-21, 01:17 PM
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Originally Posted by 70sSanO View Post
Not to disparage the Olympian. It was for shooting. Still a great feat but with a bit less cardio involved.

At least it wasnít for fishing. Which I understand was petitioned for inclusion in the 2020 Olympics.

John
Well. A Kentucky boy just won the 15m rifle. He was 20.

Iím a bit perplexed. I watched some of the Olympic shooting events (I just might show up with my 1022. How hard could it be?) and noted that competitors over 40 are pretty rare. I donít understand this. Itís not like the alpine biathlon where you have to ski 14 miles to shoot at some targets.

Why is this?

As far as fishing goes, it depends. If itís Olympic bass fishing, amount of beer consumed and size of the outboards would have to be factored in.

Ifís itís fly fishing, all the Czechs and Hungarians would win it hands down, because of their euronymphing techniques.
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Old 08-01-21, 01:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
Well. A Kentucky boy just won the 15m rifle. He was 20.

Iím a bit perplexed. I watched some of the Olympic shooting events (I just might show up with my 1022. How hard could it be?) and noted that competitors over 40 are pretty rare. I donít understand this. Itís not like the alpine biathlon where you have to ski 14 miles to shoot at some targets.

Why is this?

As far as fishing goes, it depends. If itís Olympic bass fishing, amount of beer consumed and size of the outboards would have to be factored in.

Ifís itís fly fishing, all the Czechs and Hungarians would win it hands down, because of their euronymphing techniques.
I've done a little shooting over the years. I would regularly score in the low 260/300 and sometimes 270/300 3P smallbore (22 LR cal). I don't know why but I can't do that no more. I used to be a +2 golfer but my putting is lousy. I certainly was routing for Tom Watson on the Old Course but the 59 year old missed the short putt, not so surprisingly.

I have noticed my sprinting power has declined the most. My ability to suffer at near threshold for a long period of time has diminished the least.
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Old 08-01-21, 01:36 PM
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I have cycled more seriously the last 13 years and a runner primarily before that. I am riding generally about like I did 10 years ago and I am 60. I don't think I am as such getting better but I think I have developed better bike instincts. For a all out solo century and pouring it on for speed I have slowed down but not huge amounts. For all out short sprints I am probably slower but the last 18 months I have been averaging about 800 miles a month. 10 years I could not have imagined doing that but I was running much more. Even taking that into account and running less or very little back then that seemed like pretty much more than I can do. Now I can knock off 50 miles a day pretty much if I want.

Now running that is a totally different animal I have taken a huge hit in what I once could run.
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Old 08-01-21, 01:57 PM
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I'm 71 and riding as fast as I ever have--maybe faster. But I have an advantage over most of you in this regard. I've been riding less than four years. I seemed to be getting faster over at least my first two years of cycling, even though I was in pretty good shape before I started. I was running before I started cycling, but had to give up running because of knee problems and cycling became my substitute for running. Running and cycling are different enough that from my experience, being in great running shape is not sufficient to be in great cycling shape.

During my running days I used to run the same ten-mile race every year (ran it 27 years in a row). I always felt I was just as fast as always, but I kept a record of my times, and while I was feeling just as fast, the record of my times showed otherwise.
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Old 08-01-21, 02:12 PM
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My take is that if you've been riding at a high level then it's doubtful that you will get better in your late 60's or beyond. I've really improved this year at 68. I'm in a rural area and mostly ride alone and, over the years, I fell into the rut of riding far but not hard. I never rode at a high level. Saturday's during the summer, I'd meet up with a group10-15 years younger for a 30 mile ride and they were stronger and could climb much better then me. This year, due to real speed and hill training on my part , I'm right there on the wheel of the lead guy on climbs and I sense that I could take him, just don't want to tick him off, but that he knows I'm there is enough. I lost weight, trained hard and improved. The others are creeping up on 60 , starting to lose their edge and haven't got the message that you need to train harder to retain your strength as you age. For now, it's fun and just a small window in time. So, it's relative. But no, had I been a high level cyclist I'd likely not be improving at my age, much easier to rise from mediocrity.
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Old 08-01-21, 02:37 PM
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Originally Posted by Dudelsack View Post
As far as fishing goes, it depends. If itís Olympic bass fishing, amount of beer consumed and size of the outboards would have to be factored in.

Ifís itís fly fishing, all the Czechs and Hungarians would win it hands down, because of their euronymphing techniques.
Noodling?

Can one hunt tiger sharks by hand swimming in the water?
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Old 08-01-21, 04:48 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I like to say the motor is good but the chassis has some rust on it. I found it is important to know when to rest. I had 4 PB on hills yesterday and decided my body needs a rest.
Yes. I have noticed that I need more rest days now than 20 years ago, when I used to ride as long and as hard as I wanted to--and rarely had to take time off the bike.

So maybe recovery simply takes longer at our age?
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Old 08-01-21, 04:59 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Yes. I have noticed that I need more rest days now than 20 years ago, when I used to ride as long and as hard as I wanted to--and rarely had to take time off the bike.

So maybe recovery simply takes longer at our age?
I find heart rate variability to a better indicator than leg soreness, it seems they delay more. Intensity is more of a double edge sword, I feel. You need it even more but have to be careful. I still ride volume without a problem
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Old 08-01-21, 08:15 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Is the gradual slowing and power loss as we age inevitable?

Can we still ride at a high level into our 60s and beyond? Can we get faster?

My tentative answer, with a data set of size one, is "maybe?".

I'm just shy of 63, and yesterday I set a personal best time up a local steep road (Tunitas Creek, 1.2 miles, 9.4%). 11% faster than two months ago, and better than my previous best time in 2019. On each attempt, I rode with almost the same heart rate (141bpm) and effort (tempo), but yesterday I just had more power.

I can't explain the reason for the improvement, but it sure feels good to know that I'm getting even a little bit stronger.

Has anyone else seen improvements in their performance over time?

You just happen to wake up feeling dangerous. I get that every now and then and it feels amazing when I ride. It gives me a taste of what it was like being in my 20's.
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Old 08-01-21, 10:35 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I find heart rate variability to a better indicator than leg soreness, it seems they delay more. Intensity is more of a double edge sword, I feel. You need it even more but have to be careful. I still ride volume without a problem
What do you use to track/analyze heart rate variability? And how do you interpret it? I assume a high variability is good, low means you need a rest.

I see HRV in my iPhone's Heath app, but the value is pretty variable from day to day:


iPhone Health app: heart rate variability, 1 month
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Old 08-01-21, 10:47 PM
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Congrats on the Tunitas Creek climb. I did that climb a lot and one year the Low Key Hill Climb series featured it in the series. I did it and there was another section added that was harder and featured a 17% grade. What others do not know is that unless you live on the west side of Skyline, one has to climb Skyline from Silicon Valley, ride to the ocean and then go back via Tunitas so one has a lot of fatigue in ones legs for the climb. Anyway bravo.

I have power data from 2008 plus a lot of racing results. In some respects, I am faster at age 72 and recover better. But a lot has to do with improved recovery techniques and just general training knowledge. I know myself pretty well and I know which coaches to use and what techniques work for me.

I was very close to an all time high power PR for 1 minute the other day at the track. And I am working out with much larger gears (fixed gear no brakes) than I did 12 years ago. So there is that.

Over the last month, I am focusing on more high intensity workouts, less miles and time on the bike but much harder efforts. Why? Change of pace. If I do the same thing over and over again I get better and then plateau. I like to mix it up. And with the pandemic, there is very little, if any racing or events that interest me. Hopefully, next year will be better.
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Old 08-02-21, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
What do you use to track/analyze heart rate variability? And how do you interpret it? I assume a high variability is good, low means you need a rest.

I see HRV in my iPhone's Heath app, but the value is pretty variable from day to day:


iPhone Health app: heart rate variability, 1 month
I use Elite HRV AP on my iphone. It gives me a readiness score of 1-10 based on the morning's HRV. A lower HRV than trend indicates less readiness. When I overdo a workout, the HRV shows it the next morning but I don't feel like crap until the day after. I am not sure if this is an age thing or what. It might take 3-5 days to recover now before I can do another hard workout.
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Old 08-02-21, 05:58 AM
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Funny about change of pace and plateauing. I was never fond of sweetspot type training. Two years ago, I was not making progress and then I read on another forum someone asking Andrew Coggan what his favorite workout would be (I think the context was time trialing). And, if I recall correctly he said 2 x 20 at something like 95% of threshold, IIRC. So, I was like..."what do I have to lose?" and started on those 3 times per week, increasing power as fitness improved and eventually worked up to 6 x 20. It didn't help all the much for my 5 minute power but my lactate threshold went way up. My FTP went from something like 82% of my 5 minute power to 86%. 4% increase over perhaps 6 weeks was huge. What was it that Einstein said about doing the same thing over and over

I have the opposite problem now. My aerobic capacity is 8% lower than in the past although I suspect it could be a PM issue because my 4-6 minute hill climb times are better. It is complicated because my past times were on an M5 recumbent and the past few weeks have been on my magnesium Pinnarelo AK61, which was always my best climber by far. I do the math to balance out the weight difference and it is perplexing. I should not be making PB on climbs. But, I'll take it. Nonetheless, I am working on my VO2 max or Aerobic capacity, it responds quickly to HIIT work whereas ability to process lactate and pyruvate (bumping threshold closer and closer to VO2 max) takes more time for me.

I like the 5 minute hill climbs because I like 3 x 5 minute intervals and somehow it is easier to be motivated trying to better past times and it is a short albeit painful workout. Those intervals are very hard, I used to do 6 x 5 minutes but that is too much nowadays. I would usually fail on the sixth.
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