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Another "How much protein?" thread

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Another "How much protein?" thread

Old 10-20-21, 04:37 PM
  #26  
Calsun
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Red meat isn't bad for your heart....if it was our ancestors would of all died of heart attack and none of us would be here today.
Life expectancy in the United States in 1900 for men was 46.3 years. Heart attacks was the primary reason why so few men never made it to 60 years of age until the 1970's. Seventh Day Adventists with their vegan/vegetarian diets live on average 10 year longer than their meat eating neighbors. Growing up there was no McDonalds or Burger King stores and my meat consumption was a tiny fraction of what people now normally consume. Look at school pictures from the 1950's or 1960's and count how many fat people you see in the photos and it will be obvious how the current industrial diet has screwed up people's bodies and their health.

Red meat and pork factory farming is also responsible for more than half the greenhouse gases, especially methane, that is warming the planet and leading to droughts and floods and widespread starvation of millions of men, women, and children. But I do not expect people to do what is right for the planet but eating less beef and pork will enable one to live a longer and healthier life.

Watch the movie with The Game Changers that was produced by Arnold Schwarzenegger, James Cameron, and Jackie Chan, if you want to learn more about the health issues of consuming animal protein. Or read the book by T. Colin Campbell covering the China Study, the largest database of cancer ever created, and researchers have found links with diet and cancer. Meat plays a role in the increased prevalence of breast, prostrate, colon, and child brain cancers in the western countries.
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Old 10-20-21, 05:01 PM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Red meat isn't bad for your heart....if it was our ancestors would of all died of heart attack and none of us would be here today.
Humans are engineered to last 55 years, that is through reproduction and child-rearing. After that point we are pretty much junk as far as evolution is concerned, our evolutionary purpose has been fulfilled. The problem with read meat for heart is mostly post-55. If you don't mind following your evolutionary destiny, sure chow down on all that red meat. Me, I'd rather hang around for the bonus round.
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Old 10-20-21, 05:38 PM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Bones get stronger when they are put under stress, such as in doing weight bearing activities, it has nothing to do with protein intake.
no ****

one factor is what i said

you are wrong as usual
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Old 10-20-21, 05:57 PM
  #29  
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Originally Posted by Calsun View Post
Life expectancy in the United States in 1900 for men was 46.3 years. Heart attacks was the primary reason why so few men never made it to 60 years of age until the 1970's. Seventh Day Adventists with their vegan/vegetarian diets live on average 10 year longer than their meat eating neighbors. Growing up there was no McDonalds or Burger King stores and my meat consumption was a tiny fraction of what people now normally consume. Look at school pictures from the 1950's or 1960's and count how many fat people you see in the photos and it will be obvious how the current industrial diet has screwed up people's bodies and their health.


Red meat and pork factory farming is also responsible for more than half the greenhouse gases, especially methane, that is warming the planet and leading to droughts and floods and widespread starvation of millions of men, women, and children. But I do not expect people to do what is right for the planet but eating less beef and pork will enable one to live a longer and healthier life.


Watch the movie with The Game Changers that was produced by Arnold Schwarzenegger, James Cameron, and Jackie Chan, if you want to learn more about the health issues of consuming animal protein. Or read the book by T. Colin Campbell covering the China Study, the largest database of cancer ever created, and researchers have found links with diet and cancer. Meat plays a role in the increased prevalence of breast, prostrate, colon, and child brain cancers in the western countries.

Game Changers is a vegetarian propaganda .A bunch of famous celebrities getting paid big $$$ to use their influence and popularity to spread some ideological nonsense....China Study is a bunch of nonsense, the author of that book cherry picked whatever fits with his personal ideology.
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Old 10-20-21, 06:17 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Game Changers is a vegetarian propaganda .A bunch of famous celebrities getting paid big $$$ to use their influence and popularity to spread some ideological nonsense....China Study is a bunch of nonsense, the author of that book cherry picked whatever fits with his personal ideology.
OTOH, methane and crop acreage loss to animal grazing are all huge problems as the earth's population keeps increasing and starvation is on the rise. The loss of humans isn't that big a deal, but the moral issue of staving other people's children to death does bother me. My position on this is that every person of childbearing age needs to just stop it. No more children, period. If you're relatively young, and TG we're not, you're grandchildren will mostly die horrible deaths or live in squalor. It's happening. and about twice as fast as even the pessimists thought it would. Beyond that, there is good evidence that high levels of meat consumption increase the risk of Alzheimer's:

https://millenniummemorycare.com/hig...lzheimers-risk
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/27454859/

as well as other diseases.

You're exactly right about the China Study and I haven't seen and won't see the movie.
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Old 10-20-21, 06:45 PM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
Humans are engineered to last 55 years, that is through reproduction and child-rearing. After that point we are pretty much junk as far as evolution is concerned, our evolutionary purpose has been fulfilled. The problem with read meat for heart is mostly post-55. If you don't mind following your evolutionary destiny, sure chow down on all that red meat. Me, I'd rather hang around for the bonus round.
There are millions of meat eaters in this world who continue to live long past the age of 55....
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Old 10-20-21, 07:02 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post

Bones get stronger when they are put under stress, such as in doing weight bearing activities, it has nothing to do with protein intake.
The gentle reader should please remember that the content in this thread is only for the definitely over-50 and may not become personally applicable until maybe 60 or so.

#1 your wrong about protein and its influence on bone remodeling:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22139564/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4180248/

Note that the association between bone health and fractures is uncertain. IOW, don't fall!

#2, not all weight bearing activities work. Ultrarunners for instance are often osteoporotic, just like cyclists. Walking has no effect. I doubt that the usual running has an effect either: https://melioguide.com/osteoporosis-...-osteoporosis/
The only study-verified method of increasing bone strength which I know of is resistance training:
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6279907/

OTOH, I've been lifting weights in the gym, working up to relatively high weights and low reps every year in a program lasting from October to May, for about 20 years. I thought I was golden, but I'm osteoporotic anyway. Why? I think lack of protein, but I won't know for sure until my next DEXA scan. My last 2 scans showed very little improvement even with medication and increased calcium intake. My best 10 rep barbell squats have been only 1.5 X bodyweight, possibly also a function of low protein intake.
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Old 10-21-21, 03:16 AM
  #33  
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I specifically mentioned whey protein with egg and milk in the afternoon, this was after specific workouts and prior to a nap. Glutamine enhanced Whey has been shown to increase human growth hormone release by 400-500% over control group in studies. HGH and IGF-1 very clearly stimulates osteoblast formation. None of those require extensive research. I never implied that simply eating some protein could reverse osteoporosis. Most Docs and most papers online will tell you the best you can do is halt the decline. Food isn't simply calories in and calories out nor is it simple building blocks, rather food has the ability to to trigger your specific genetics and therefore, a much bigger and contentious discussion than I would be willing to have. Hiking with a backpack up steep boulder hills and then down them helped among many other lifestyle changes.

I increased my T-Score by 3 standard deviations over 2 + years. That is a fact.
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Old 10-21-21, 03:55 AM
  #34  
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.......losses in appendicular muscle mass in these subjects (∼2.7 kg) do appear to contribute importantly to the reduced whole bodyV˙o2 max values of older endurance-trained men and women
WRT to the question I raised whether loss of VO2 max or FTP could be related to the loss of muscle mass, I could only find one study that looked at older trained athletes. It looks like half of the aerobic power loss might be attributed to loss of muscle.

https://journals.physiology.org/doi/...1997.82.5.1411
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Old 10-21-21, 04:48 AM
  #35  
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My D3 levels have been tested 1-2 times per year for 2 decades. Despite not using sunscreen and D3 supplementation titrated by my MD, my levels were falling. Neither he nor I know why. He upped my D3 dose and my levels returned to where he wants them. Most people do not have optimum D3 levels. K2 is also important.

The attached is a bit technical but shows an important role for D3....

I paid my Doc a visit recently 5 days after breaking 9 bones in an accident, some of them with multiple breaks and one compound fracture. He adjusted my supplements/vitamins. I focused on lots of dark leafy greens, sardines, and more protein than usual. It is impossible for an N = 1 observation to differentiate positive effects. For instance, I would normally have a couple of beers Fri-Sun but stopped all alcohol, what is that effect? I know that 4 of my broken ribs healed in 5 weeks and the smashed clavicle was probably completely healed in 4 weeks. The Surgeon at 5 weeks said I have no limitations on the compound fractured humerus and the smashed upper part of my elbow (4-5 pieces). The xrays show full union. I wish the soft tissue were healing as fast but an olecranon osteotomy is a nasty procedure on the connective tissue. Sharing that because bone health has been a focus of mine for almost 3 years and most recently due to an accident. I wish I could get my wife to be disciplined to work on her bone health. I am also not implying that I know much of anything other than we can be much healthier as we age than presupposed.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...014.00137/full
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Old 10-21-21, 05:14 AM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
I started doing that a little over a month ago, and with no change in my exercise program, I'm up 1.4% lean body mass and .67% body weight and don't have sore legs every day. The tape agrees. I'm like, "Really?? Decades of struggle and that's all it took?"
Let's start with some science from reputable medical websites.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...ld-more-muscle
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...rotein-powders
https://www.center4research.org/prot...arm-than-good/

Self experimentation with supplements is not a good idea and can be dangerous. One should at least consult a physician before starting taking huge amount of supplements in attempt of self-experimentation.

As somebody already mentioned, if a person follows balanced, healthy diet, in vast majority of cases there is no need for supplements. In rare cases of medical situations, rare illnesses one should follow science, recommendations from physicians and dieticians, and NOT rely on anecdotal stories from workout buddies, tv commercials, tik-tok, internet blogs or personal preconceived notion. I am not sure why people do this kind of stuff? Obsession with immortality, perfection, vanity?

Working out and healthy diet, following science and advice from physicians and dieticians: GOOD idea. Self-medication, abusing supplements, self-experimentation: BAD idea.

There was a guy, Noble prize winner in physics, that fell into this trap with many millions of clueless, uninformed followers.
https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/754774...c-myth-pauling
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Old 10-21-21, 05:23 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by rowerek View Post
Let's start with some science from reputable medical websites.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...ld-more-muscle
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...rotein-powders
https://www.center4research.org/prot...arm-than-good/

Self experimentation with supplements is not a good idea and can be dangerous. One should at least consult a physician before starting taking huge amount of supplements in attempt of self-experimentation.

As somebody already mentioned, if a person follows balanced, healthy diet, in vast majority of cases there is no need for supplements. In rare cases of medical situations, rare illnesses one should follow science, recommendations from physicians and dieticians, and NOT rely on anecdotal stories from workout buddies, tv commercials, tik-tok, internet blogs or personal preconceived notion. I am not sure why people do this kind of stuff? Obsession with immortality, perfection, vanity?

Working out and healthy diet, following science and advice from physicians and dieticians: GOOD idea. Self-medication, abusing supplements, self-experimentation: BAD idea.

There was a guy, Noble prize winner in physics, that fell into this trap with many millions of clueless, uninformed followers.
https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/754774...c-myth-pauling
Your four references make the same trite point. Don't buy garbage protein powders.

If the medical community was so sound, why are seniors so unhealthy?

If I am not mistaken, the fellow you slammed, Linus Pauling, won two Nobel Prizes and lived into his mid 90's with vigor. Seems like a good goal to me.

I saw a EP cardiologist recently for some timing issues. He took his glasses off and looks me in the eye and says, most of my patients are fat, lazy, they eat poorly, and have all sorts of health issues. He looks at me and says you look like an 18 year old athlete, "Total Respect". Blew them away with 18.4 METs on the treadmill. If good health does not mean anything to you, go to another thread.
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Old 10-21-21, 12:12 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by rowerek View Post
Let's start with some science from reputable medical websites.
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...ld-more-muscle
https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...rotein-powders
https://www.center4research.org/prot...arm-than-good/

Self experimentation with supplements is not a good idea and can be dangerous. One should at least consult a physician before starting taking huge amount of supplements in attempt of self-experimentation.

As somebody already mentioned, if a person follows balanced, healthy diet, in vast majority of cases there is no need for supplements. In rare cases of medical situations, rare illnesses one should follow science, recommendations from physicians and dieticians, and NOT rely on anecdotal stories from workout buddies, tv commercials, tik-tok, internet blogs or personal preconceived notion. I am not sure why people do this kind of stuff? Obsession with immortality, perfection, vanity?

Working out and healthy diet, following science and advice from physicians and dieticians: GOOD idea. Self-medication, abusing supplements, self-experimentation: BAD idea.

There was a guy, Noble prize winner in physics, that fell into this trap with many millions of clueless, uninformed followers.
https://www.vox.com/2015/1/15/754774...c-myth-pauling
(actually just chuckling).
First link: https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...ld-more-muscle
Quite. More protein won't do anything unless you work out. One needs to lift at least once a week, using enough weight and reps, or ride or run hard enough and long enough that you experience DOMS. You need protein to repair your muscles during the DOMS process. Duh.
Yesterday, I got on my rollers. In between 15' warmup and cool-downs, I pedaled at my upper cadence limit for 30', staying just below VT1. Turned out to be 114, not too bad for a geezer. In the afternoon I went for a 30', 90 cadence run. Yup, legs are a little sore today, but I should be OK for another hour on the rollers and my hour of lower body work at the gym.

Second link: https://www.health.harvard.edu/stayi...rotein-powders
In today's media marketplace, one can always find this sort of thing. "Be afraid. Be very afraid." Fear sells. Yeah, so don't buy protein with junk in it.

Third link: https://www.center4research.org/prot...arm-than-good/
I would like you to visit this link and then show me their preferred 5 lb. container of whey protein. I selected my preferred whey protein from a list of tested protein powders some time ago. Here it is: https://www.amazon.com/Grass-Fed-Whe...01M2X4KM2?th=1
According to Amazon, I've gone through over 100 lbs. of this stuff, no ill effects.

I assume that your get all your animal protein, chicken, eggs, pork, beef, lamb, etc., from organically raised free range animals. All the food we buy, so far as it is possible, is organically raised. Even beer.

OTOH, if you want to learn something about optimal protein intake for athletes, have a look here:
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-015-0100-0
https://examine.com/guides/protein-i...e-for-athletes
the day following a regular training session, male endurance athletes required 2.12.7 g/kg; two days after their last resistance-training session, amateur male bodybuilders required 1.72.2 g/kg.
Since higher protein intakes seem to have no negative effects in healthy people, one may want to err toward the higher amounts. For most athletes (and similarly active adults), the ISSN range (1.42.0 g/kg) will work well
Osteoporosis:
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/33890124/
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/15005839/

I rely on scientific studies rather than opinion pieces for my information.
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Old 10-21-21, 03:13 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
My D3 levels have been tested 1-2 times per year for 2 decades. Despite not using sunscreen and D3 supplementation titrated by my MD, my levels were falling. Neither he nor I know why. He upped my D3 dose and my levels returned to where he wants them. Most people do not have optimum D3 levels. K2 is also important.

The attached is a bit technical but shows an important role for D3....

I paid my Doc a visit recently 5 days after breaking 9 bones in an accident, some of them with multiple breaks and one compound fracture. He adjusted my supplements/vitamins. I focused on lots of dark leafy greens, sardines, and more protein than usual. It is impossible for an N = 1 observation to differentiate positive effects. For instance, I would normally have a couple of beers Fri-Sun but stopped all alcohol, what is that effect? I know that 4 of my broken ribs healed in 5 weeks and the smashed clavicle was probably completely healed in 4 weeks. The Surgeon at 5 weeks said I have no limitations on the compound fractured humerus and the smashed upper part of my elbow (4-5 pieces). The xrays show full union. I wish the soft tissue were healing as fast but an olecranon osteotomy is a nasty procedure on the connective tissue. Sharing that because bone health has been a focus of mine for almost 3 years and most recently due to an accident. I wish I could get my wife to be disciplined to work on her bone health. I am also not implying that I know much of anything other than we can be much healthier as we age than presupposed.

https://www.frontiersin.org/articles...014.00137/full
Good to know how that works. About 5 years ago, my annual showed below normal D levels. My doc put me on 6000 IU daily of D3 for a couple months, tested again - high normal - and dropped it to 2000 IU daily which I''ve maintained ever since. Annual testing shows high normal. In the PNW our skin doesn't see much sun. OTOH, no skin cancer. I'll take the pill. My wife's tests and supplementation were/are almost identical to mine.
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Old 10-21-21, 04:13 PM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
. Don't buy garbage protein powders.
Don't buy any protein powders at all, human body doesn't need protein powders. Even people who workout and train don't need protein supplements...All the protein you need is found in food..
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Old 10-21-21, 10:12 PM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Good to know how that works. About 5 years ago, my annual showed below normal D levels. My doc put me on 6000 IU daily of D3 for a couple months, tested again - high normal - and dropped it to 2000 IU daily which I''ve maintained ever since. Annual testing shows high normal. In the PNW our skin doesn't see much sun. OTOH, no skin cancer. I'll take the pill. My wife's tests and supplementation were/are almost identical to mine.
Apparently vey common issue as we 'senior' out....
My levels were just at low normal. Knowing my very active life, MD wants to address anything significant, especially Vit-D. MD didn't think a special prescription level was called for, so suggested doing OTC 2000 iu daily. Next review showed I was quite Mid-Normal. And more importantly I did notice a general increase in overall feeling 'energetic'. This was the ONLY change in my normal diet/supplements during this period.
I have 3 friend riders, in similar age range, who've also been needing Vit-D3 supplementation - one so low that he's using prescription level doses - and has improved because of...
I was surprised by my low readings, and surprised by the experienced 'greater' energy from a relatively low supplement level.
WHY, we have low D or don;t get enough D (aside from dietary issues), is still an ongoing research question. Clear the 'sun exposure' may not be enough to give adequate supply to some.
I'm not suggesting 'supplementation', but do think making it a 'focus; when an overall health checkup is done, is a worthwhile thing.
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Old 10-21-21, 10:40 PM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Don't buy any protein powders at all, human body doesn't need protein powders. Even people who workout and train don't need protein supplements...All the protein you need is found in Healthful, Good Quality food..
... there... I know, sometimes I type something, and when I post - it's no longer there...
My take on any supplement. Sometimes they're needed... due to lack of dietary variety, personal system issues, deficiency causes because of external factors (like me having chemo...).
so they may be necessary, or in the least - helpful.
I won;t be doin any finger wagging... Best we each can do is be very self-aware - educate ourselves from as many good sources as possible - listen to unbiased experts, and start any dietary change (or supplementation) in a reasonable manner, with reasonable oversight.
Vegetarian and especially Vegan has real challenges to retain a diet which has optimum levels of nutrients we all need.
Many in the general population just have a very poor diet. Many have a few bad habits (my hand goes up.. LOL!)
But, many of us continue to learn and hopefully improve...
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Old 10-21-21, 11:09 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Calsun View Post
Life expectancy in the United States in 1900 for men was 46.3 years. Heart attacks was the primary reason why so few men never made it to 60 years of age until the 1970's. Seventh Day Adventists with their vegan/vegetarian diets live on average 10 year longer than their meat eating neighbors. Growing up there was no McDonalds or Burger King stores and my meat consumption was a tiny fraction of what people now normally consume. Look at school pictures from the 1950's or 1960's and count how many fat people you see in the photos and it will be obvious how the current industrial diet has screwed up people's bodies and their health.

Red meat and pork factory farming is also responsible for more than half the greenhouse gases, especially methane, that is warming the planet and leading to droughts and floods and widespread starvation of millions of men, women, and children. But I do not expect people to do what is right for the planet but eating less beef and pork will enable one to live a longer and healthier life.

Watch the movie with The Game Changers that was produced by Arnold Schwarzenegger, James Cameron, and Jackie Chan, if you want to learn more about the health issues of consuming animal protein. Or read the book by T. Colin Campbell covering the China Study, the largest database of cancer ever created, and researchers have found links with diet and cancer. Meat plays a role in the increased prevalence of breast, prostrate, colon, and child brain cancers in the western countries.
All debatable, out of context or inaccurate.

Play around with these graphs that estimate life expectancy in the past from birth, age 5, age 20 and so on, and a very different picture emerges. The life expectancy quotes of age approx 45-48 is based on all types of deaths recorded from birth on. But the vast majority of deaths in childhood were due to diseases. That trend changed dramatically with vaccines. If a male child born in 1900 reached age 5, he was likely to live to late 50s. If he survived to age 20, he was likely to live to his early 60s. The improvements were even better for women.

That's due to vaccines/immunizations, better medical care for pregnant women, better nutrition as the exploitative practices of the industrial age were restrained by the labor movement, and so on.

And when we take genetics into account, there's no clear picture of how an idealized universal diet benefits all people.

If our sampling group is limited to Kenyan and Ethiopian runners, we might come away with the impression that the ideal diet consisted of very little meat, a lot of corn and grain based foods and a lot of tea with sugar.

If our sampling group is limited to indigenous peoples of the arctic region, we'd come away with the impression that the ideal diet is seal blubber and meat.

Humans didn't "evolve" to thrive on those dietary extremes in the way depicted by utopian idealism. The people who couldn't adapt to those diets died. The survivors passed on their genetic abilities to thrive on corn mush, lentils or aquatic mammal blubber. And their mixed race descendants over many generations inherited some of those traits.

And some genetic groups evolved to thrive on meat.

The main culprit for obesity, primarily in America, is sugar. For decades we have literally been fed sugar disguised as "food" by a ruthless manipulative fake food industry, an industry so powerful that they've infected schools and even nursing homes and retirement homes with sugar disguised as food. Every Texas public school I've visited has vending machines filled with candy, chips and sodas, and very little else. And the schools get a kickback that mostly benefits their sports and social organizations, at the expense of millions of children.

And there's no definitive evidence that the meat industry creates more greenhouse gasses or has more overall impact on the ecology than does the agricultural industry, particularly in its current faddish attempt to replicate meatlike products in a monoculture environment that has proven to be detrimental to the land and environment.

BTW, several years ago I was parroting the same stuff you wrote. But I debated my opinions openly and honestly with other folks, who cited persuasive studies and evidence that those opinions were wrong about a universal idealized diet that's suitable for everyone.

Frankly I was happy to be wrong. Because I could never adapt to a diet of lentils, rice, etc. I tried on and off for years, and almost exclusively in 2018 after being diagnosed with thyroid cancer. Worst dietary year of my adult life. Constant digestive upset, gas, bloating, loss of muscle mass and getting weaker.

I've also tried a diet that's almost exclusively meat based and animal product based. My digestion was fine. I'm within 5 lbs of my optimal weight. But I find that diet boring so I'm an omnivore... even when some stuff I eat really doesn't agree with me.

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Old 10-22-21, 05:02 AM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Don't buy any protein powders at all, human body doesn't need protein powders. Even people who workout and train don't need protein supplements...All the protein you need is found in food..
People don't need McDonalds either.

Perhaps, you could explain an alternative means of stimulating the release of growth hormone midday?

Better yet, give me a plan (no drugs please) to increase DEXA scan score by 3 standard deviations? I know that is too big of an ask, so, how about explaining how a 60-80 yo can maintain all of their muscle mass?

My longtime family doctor recently retired. He always had me on a very specific supplement plan. Linus Pauling double Nobel Laureate level stuff. Interestingly to me, when he retired at age 73, he told me he was going to continue playing soccer with the 20 year olds. I was was incredulous. You play with those guys? Yup. He told me he could still run like a 20 year old. I could always tell he was very fit but I did not know that. So, I would say listen to the right doctor.
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Old 10-22-21, 05:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Good to know how that works. About 5 years ago, my annual showed below normal D levels. My doc put me on 6000 IU daily of D3 for a couple months, tested again - high normal - and dropped it to 2000 IU daily which I''ve maintained ever since. Annual testing shows high normal. In the PNW our skin doesn't see much sun. OTOH, no skin cancer. I'll take the pill. My wife's tests and supplementation were/are almost identical to mine.
I seem to recall the normal reference range to be 25-80 ng/mL. My old retired Doc wanted me in the 60-80 range but my new younger whipper snapper is good with anything over 50. I was down in the mid 30's before bumping my daily D3 dose up.

My wife told me yesterday that in all the years, I have never had the flu and she can't remember me having a cold. I wonder why. Way over a Million miles in strange countries and no sleep. I have more than once flown to Europe twice in one week. I guess I got lucky
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Old 10-22-21, 08:45 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I seem to recall the normal reference range to be 25-80 ng/mL. My old retired Doc wanted me in the 60-80 range but my new younger whipper snapper is good with anything over 50. I was down in the mid 30's before bumping my daily D3 dose up.

My wife told me yesterday that in all the years, I have never had the flu and she can't remember me having a cold. I wonder why. Way over a Million miles in strange countries and no sleep. I have more than once flown to Europe twice in one week. I guess I got lucky
Appropriate vitamin levels have always been controversial, particularly vitamin D. It was fairly easy to determine the lowest healthy level, that's the RDA, but much harder to determine the optimal level for an individual. Probably impossible. Anyway, my D was at 61.5, 10/11/21. Doc was pleased.
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Old 10-22-21, 09:29 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
...Linus Pauling double Nobel Laureate level stuff...
I'm reluctant to cite Linus Pauling in discussion about nutrition because while he was a genius with indisputable achievements elsewhere, his latter career notions about nutrition, especially massive amounts of vitamin C, were wrong.

I remember picking up those recommendations from my grandparents, who were into the holistic, organic, natural, etc., lifestyle long before most folks. They had shelves full of books from Rodale Press, etc. But not all of it was based on scientific methodology. Mostly just folklore tarted up to sound pseudo-scientific.

That's why we need to remain open to falsification of opinions, hypotheses and research that turned out to be faulty.

At the same time, if taking massive doses of vitamin C or other supplements *seemed* to help my chronic ailments, I'd probably continue anyway. After all, my only defense for switching back to a primarily animal based diet is -- I feel better.

And I take large doses of vitamin D at my endocrinologist's urging to offset vulnerabilities caused by thyroid cancer and a wonky endocrine system. The recommended daily 5,000 IU isn't anywhere near "massive," however, based on more recent studies. It helped boost my sagging immune system, improved my bone density, and, oddly, seemed to improve my resistance to sunburn. I used to burn easily after only 15-30 minutes in the sun. Now I can bike, walk or jog at midday and just barely tan. A recent study (one, from a Nordic country) indicates that massive doses of vitamin D within an hour *after* overexposure to sun can prevent the painful effects of sunburn -- reddishness, swelling, etc. Those doses ranged up to 100,000 IU, if I'm recalling correctly, so my daily 5,000 IU is well within safe limits, yet more than I can get through any reasonable diet.

But if the science goes another direction, I'll reconsider my current diet and supplement practices.

Maybe.

I'm 63. Most men in my family on both sides might survive until 80, usually not. And their final decade was miserable, between COPD, heart disease, cancer, etc. All of that despite living reasonably healthy lives, good diets, moderate exercise, full health care accessibility, etc. Genetically, I'm on a deadline.

So I'm not expecting to live long enough to prove or disprove any theories. If what I'm doing now feels like it's working and isn't doing any harm, I'll probably continue what I'm doing. I'd rather feel good for the next decade than linger for two.
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Old 10-22-21, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by wolfchild View Post
Meat, eggs and fermented dairy is where I get my protein from. No need for supplements.
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Old 10-22-21, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Appropriate vitamin levels have always been controversial, particularly vitamin D. It was fairly easy to determine the lowest healthy level, that's the RDA, but much harder to determine the optimal level for an individual. Probably impossible. Anyway, my D was at 61.5, 10/11/21. Doc was pleased.
Vitamin D is tricky and dependent on other health factors. To offset my thyroid dysfunction I take 5,000 IU vitamin D daily, which sounds like a lot, but recent research says is nowhere near an overdose or toxic level. Some research suggests up to 100,000 IU to offset the effects of sunburn -- but that's just one study I've found.

Even with 5,000 IU in supplements, plus whatever I get from diet, my blood level is still just barely within the low normal limit. When early news about the pandemic hit the US (late 2019-early 2020) my doc insisted I increase my dosage to improve my immunity.

Ditto my iron. Even eating red meat a few times a week and dietary supplements, I'm still just barely within the low normal limit. When I tried a vegan diet for most of 2018 I was anemic. For most humans heme iron is the best, and we can only get that from animal sources, mostly red meat. And I don't suffer the digestive upsets from iron supplements.
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Old 10-22-21, 10:38 PM
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
I'm reluctant to cite Linus Pauling in discussion about nutrition because while he was a genius with indisputable achievements elsewhere, his latter career notions about nutrition, especially massive amounts of vitamin C, were wrong.
I remember picking up those recommendations from my grandparents, who were into the holistic, organic, natural, etc., lifestyle long before most folks. They had shelves full of books from Rodale Press, etc. But not all of it was based on scientific methodology. Mostly just folklore tarted up to sound pseudo-scientific.
That's why we need to remain open to falsification of opinions, hypotheses and research that turned out to be faulty.
At the same time, if taking massive doses of vitamin C or other supplements *seemed* to help my chronic ailments, I'd probably continue anyway. After all, my only defense for switching back to a primarily animal based diet is -- I feel better.
...
taking Pauling out of the equation, My own experiences are clearly different than yours. And documented.
But not looking to enter any drawn-out yea or nay. Certainly there aspects to any 'supplement' which can affect or not, on a personal level, and often there are deleterious effects as dosages increase. Depending on how its administered Vit C can quickly good into deleterious, or not.
As for hypothesis and research, its where the money can be made; and clearly so in the US.
Vit C is clearly not a cure-all, and as with all things, may not be effective for some - like many other 'cures'.
Given that each of us must make our own decisions on navigating a 'healthy life', we are, in fact, our own health captains, whether we choose to be or abdicate that to others (MDs, insurance co, opinion on FB...) ultimately however the decisions are made, its 100% us who experience the result of those decisions; un-proven opinion, both yea and nay, not withstanding.
Do your homework, and I'll do mine - hopefully we'll both result in more positive for each of us.
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