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Discovered HMB about 10 days ago

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Discovered HMB about 10 days ago

Old 01-19-22, 01:14 PM
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Hmb

At 79 and doing pretty continuous hard training I am looking for anything to aid my recovery and perhaps make my girlfriend happier. I will definitely try HMB although I will have to talk to my Pharmacologist to be sure it doesn't interact negatively with other drugs I have to take. Did you find a convenient source who is hopefully not too expensive?
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Old 01-19-22, 08:00 PM
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Originally Posted by fastcarbon View Post
At 79 and doing pretty continuous hard training I am looking for anything to aid my recovery and perhaps make my girlfriend happier. I will definitely try HMB although I will have to talk to my Pharmacologist to be sure it doesn't interact negatively with other drugs I have to take. Did you find a convenient source who is hopefully not too expensive?
Good for you! I hope to do the same. I started off with a Nutricost 250g container, which I'll refill with bulk from BulkSupplements. It's not a drug, won't affect anything other than protein assimilation. That said, my wife does like my new legs. Other than that, maybe don't train quite so hard.

Your younger body produced a gram or so of it a day, so it's naturally endogenous. There's a pretty good chance your pharmacologist won't know anything about it. It'd be interesting to hear her take on it.
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Old 01-20-22, 11:38 PM
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Progress report. Have not dropped any weight but am not experiencing quite the fatigue after hard workouts. It may be a coincidence but max heart rate when up from 186 to 189 during FTP test. Improved on test 2 points.
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Old 01-26-22, 09:10 PM
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Similar here.. my max HR is ~3-5 beats higher. I have never read anything about max HR increasing with HMB.

I don't do FTP tests but I am noticing more motivation to work out, more gain less pain kind of thing.

Its hard to be completely clear if it is the HMB, but given the non-existent downside it seems like something worth keeping going with.

PS Googling for max HR and HMB came up with this study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5537867/ - some increase observed here. So not completely wacky.
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Old 01-26-22, 10:05 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
Similar here.. my max HR is ~3-5 beats higher. I have never read anything about max HR increasing with HMB.

I don't do FTP tests but I am noticing more motivation to work out, more gain less pain kind of thing.

Its hard to be completely clear if it is the HMB, but given the non-existent downside it seems like something worth keeping going with.

PS Googling for max HR and HMB came up with this study - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5537867/ - some increase observed here. So not completely wacky.
On these performance questions . . .my understanding is that HMB helps repair muscle breakdown, which is a normal and desired result of training. Thus it has no direct effect on performance - it's up the athlete to do the harder or more frequent training which HMB allows, and that will change performance measures. On the HR increase issue, HR is driven by the skeletal muscle cells. They tell the heart to get some more blood down here. So I think stronger, larger muscle cells very well might increase HR. Seems to me it might also allow better repair to heart muscle cells, which is a consideration for us older riders. But I can't say if that's true, nor do I think a cardiologist would know. We're the point of the spear.

Yes, taking supplements outside a controlled study will produce equivocal results. Maybe yes, maybe not. The tricky part is that if it works, you'll train a little harder and get just as tired as you did before you started using the substance, but you should see a result if you do train harder or more frequently. If you don't, no, no result. EPO gave Lance the ability to spend more time at very high aerobic levels, which resulted in better muscle conditioning. So when he went off it, he still got results. He still had to train like a maniac.
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Old 01-30-22, 10:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
On these performance questions . . .my understanding is that HMB helps repair muscle breakdown, which is a normal and desired result of training. Thus it has no direct effect on performance - it's up the athlete to do the harder or more frequent training which HMB allows, and that will change performance measures. On the HR increase issue, HR is driven by the skeletal muscle cells. They tell the heart to get some more blood down here. So I think stronger, larger muscle cells very well might increase HR. Seems to me it might also allow better repair to heart muscle cells, which is a consideration for us older riders. But I can't say if that's true, nor do I think a cardiologist would know. We're the point of the spear.

Yes, taking supplements outside a controlled study will produce equivocal results. Maybe yes, maybe not. The tricky part is that if it works, you'll train a little harder and get just as tired as you did before you started using the substance, but you should see a result if you do train harder or more frequently. If you don't, no, no result. EPO gave Lance the ability to spend more time at very high aerobic levels, which resulted in better muscle conditioning. So when he went off it, he still got results. He still had to train like a maniac.
Excellent analysis and summary. Well done.

What I do appreciate are fewer days with aching muscles after hard workouts. Psychologically it feels like I am in better shape than I am (placebo?) Don’t know if it compensates enough for its dreadful taste but it can be hidden in strong flavored beverages. I did manage a PR yesterday according to Strava on a long and despised climb. The irony was that my Garmin had died, so I had no clue how fast I was going and no HRM. I just rode what felt comfortable without pushing. I have Strava on my phone, if this seems bizarre. So……
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Old 01-31-22, 08:46 AM
  #57  
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Okay, I have been using HMB for about 1.5 months now so I will relate my experience, so far. In the first few days, my legs felt much more refreshed than usual. They didn't have that lingering tired feeling and I was elated at what was happening. Unfortunately, that didn't last very long and I was right back to feeling really stiff and tired after a tough ride like Road to Sky or Ven-Top. What I found, though, seems to mirror Carbonfiberboy's experience. After doing a hard ride like those and getting a couple of rest days in, I am able to do a regular ride at a good pace. My legs may seem tired and a bit stiff but instead of feeling truly "flat" and being slower than normal on the next ride, I am actually able to push a regular pace on a more standard route. Basically, like the OP, I have found an improvement in my performance. In fact, I have since added a routine of squats and dead lifts after one of my rides each week. The HMB doesn't necessarily keep me from feeling tired in between workouts but it does seem to keep me from having a drop off after hitting things hard.

I am now satisfied enough that I will continue to use the HMB after this first supply runs out. I started with the capsules for the convenience but will be switching to the powder for the cost savings since you can get twice as much for less money. I am very curious to see how things are after 6 months when Winter is over and I am back out on the road with the local club.
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Old 01-31-22, 02:16 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by TennBent View Post
Okay, I have been using HMB for about 1.5 months now so I will relate my experience, so far. In the first few days, my legs felt much more refreshed than usual. They didn't have that lingering tired feeling and I was elated at what was happening. Unfortunately, that didn't last very long and I was right back to feeling really stiff and tired after a tough ride like Road to Sky or Ven-Top. What I found, though, seems to mirror Carbonfiberboy's experience. After doing a hard ride like those and getting a couple of rest days in, I am able to do a regular ride at a good pace. My legs may seem tired and a bit stiff but instead of feeling truly "flat" and being slower than normal on the next ride, I am actually able to push a regular pace on a more standard route. Basically, like the OP, I have found an improvement in my performance. In fact, I have since added a routine of squats and dead lifts after one of my rides each week. The HMB doesn't necessarily keep me from feeling tired in between workouts but it does seem to keep me from having a drop off after hitting things hard.

I am now satisfied enough that I will continue to use the HMB after this first supply runs out. I started with the capsules for the convenience but will be switching to the powder for the cost savings since you can get twice as much for less money. I am very curious to see how things are after 6 months when Winter is over and I am back out on the road with the local club.
That's exactly my experience. I've had to make changes in my activity response to perception, if that makes any sense.

In the results category, I did a 3:05 somewhat hilly ride yesterday with 51 minutes in zone 4, 28% of moving time. I've never done that on a ride before, ever. It was raining, too. Which adds to the questioning above about increased HR with HMB. Why? I don't see anything in the literature about that. I'm not satisfied with my previous explanation that it's just more muscle asking for more oxygen.

My wife is also in this experiment. She rides tandem with me and notices this effect much more strongly than I. She now can attain HRs on the bike which are more closely associated with her MHR in her dressage classes. Our power in the tandem however doesn't seem much increased, but it's early in the experiment.
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Old 02-03-22, 11:30 PM
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Has anyone else using HMB noticed they are sleeping better? It could be a total coincidence but thought I would ask.
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Old 02-04-22, 06:27 AM
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rsbob, I am a long time sufferer of insomnia and have not noticed any difference in sleep pattern.
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Old 02-04-22, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
rsbob, I am a long time sufferer of insomnia and have not noticed any difference in sleep pattern.
Sorry to hear of your struggles with insomnia. The impact in your life canít be underestimated.
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Old 02-04-22, 11:52 PM
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Originally Posted by TiHabanero View Post
rsbob, I am a long time sufferer of insomnia and have not noticed any difference in sleep pattern.
You've probably tried melatonin and marijuana but it you haven't, either or both of those work for many people. But not everyone. We have a friend with seemingly incurable insomnia.

I haven't noticed any sleep pattern change with HMB
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Old 02-05-22, 04:23 AM
  #63  
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..

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Old 02-05-22, 05:04 AM
  #64  
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Not to derail the thread but NMN can also potentially help with recovery, it seems better than NR in boosting NAD+ in my experience. Harvard Researcher David Sinclair is a huge proponent.

https://www.nmn.com/news/human-trial...urance-runners

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...90123221001491
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Old 02-05-22, 12:41 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Not to derail the thread but NMN can also potentially help with recovery, it seems better than NR in boosting NAD+ in my experience. Harvard Researcher David Sinclair is a huge proponent.

https://www.nmn.com/news/human-trial...urance-runners

https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...90123221001491
Very interesting information. It’s sounds promising as an anti-aging drug although the science direct article contains the following caution,

Nevertheless, their safety and efficacy are uncertain and unreliable since most of them have not been backed up by rigorous scientific preclinical and clinical testing. This issue has been arisen as manufacturers are hesitant to pay for research and clinical trials due to potential lower profit margin, and there is no authorising agency to regulate NMN products because it is often sold as functional food product rather than heavily regulated therapeutic drug.”

Of course the same could probably be said of our HMB experiment as well.
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Old 02-05-22, 01:07 PM
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Vitamins and supplements rarely have double blind placebo controlled clinical trials.

Like any supplement, YMMV and you're on your own unless you have a Doctor like I do who reviews your supplements and doses.

I'm more worried about the 3 CT scans I had last year.
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Old 02-05-22, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by rsbob View Post
Very interesting information. Itís sounds promising as an anti-aging drug although the science direct article contains the following caution,

ĒNevertheless, their safety and efficacy are uncertain and unreliable since most of them have not been backed up by rigorous scientific preclinical and clinical testing. This issue has been arisen as manufacturers are hesitant to pay for research and clinical trials due to potential lower profit margin, and there is no authorising agency to regulate NMN products because it is often sold as functional food product rather than heavily regulated therapeutic drug.Ē

Of course the same could probably be said of our HMB experiment as well.
HMB has been well-studied, particularly w/r to dosage. Google HMB studies. NMN seems awfully expensive and not well studied in humans. Maybe it'll be mature in 5 years.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...1550-2783-10-6
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Old 02-06-22, 09:13 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
HMB has been well-studied, particularly w/r to dosage. Google HMB studies. NMN seems awfully expensive and not well studied in humans. Maybe it'll be mature in 5 years.
https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...1550-2783-10-6
NMN is much "cheaper" than Tru Noagen's nicotinamide riboside (NR) and being one step closer to the ultimate target....SIRT 1-?, it is reportedly much more effective. It works much better than NR in my experience. $145 for 100 grams of powder lasting 3-12 months is not cheap but I spend five times that on vintage white teas. I am reading HMB with interest. Thanks for sharing that.

You mentioned many times that you have had two singular times in your aging where your athletic performance dropped precipitously. I started to have problems at about age 60. My skin quality was changing visibly and my Dermatologist's knife was becoming a friend. Some of my labs were not good. Long story short, sleep studies revealed a couple of eye openers. One of significance here was a complete lack of deep sleep. None. It is thought that the endocrine system releases critical hormones such as HGH during these deep sleep phases. My sleep was horrible. One thing I did to combat it was a whey powder shake in the afternoon along with a nap. It helped recovery a little. I have recently started taking a couple of new supplements including NMN and my sleep has not been this good in a decade. I actually went out for a ride in 35F rain.....have not figured the motivation out but it seems significant. Aging and vitality or lack thereof seem to go hand in hand. I cannot say one way or the other why I seem to be improving, but obviously sleep is critical to athletic performance. I see NMN as a fancy B3 vitamin but I do agree that there needs to be more clinical trials and studies and caution with any supplement is warranted. Me? I'm taking it.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...article/192981

https://www.nmn.com/news/nad-and-the-sleep-wake-cycle

https://nmnbio.co.uk/blogs/news/inso...-sleep-a-treat

https://thesleepdoctor.com/2019/09/2...hm-supplement/
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Old 02-06-22, 11:10 PM
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Originally Posted by gobicycling View Post
I passed 5 in one year while on a medication - Tegretol. Previously passed several. The first time, I was in Pueblo, CO in my 30's, researching for my doctorate. I walked and walked - couldn't sit down. Have not had any for many years.
tegretol.... 32 years ago I was on that as I so disliked Dilantin ( seizure control, the Dilantin made me feel stupid, could only think of one thing at a time) the why?
both my internist and infectious disease Dr wrote medical abstracts on my case.
Tape worm larvae in my noggin, for 9 years, unheard of.
medicatuon got rid of it, all kinds of never before seen stuff. Anyway other than a migraine headache that steroids held at bay while the meds worked. Done.
avoided brain surgery.
a month later no trace.

tangent comment done.
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Old 02-07-22, 01:03 AM
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I've been using calcium HMB from Bulk Supplements for a month. Can't say for certain I notice any difference.

I've gained 10 lbs since November, but that's partly due to all the pecan and pumpkin pie over the holidays, and maybe too much Braum's chocolate milk after workouts. I'd guesstimate half of that is muscle, but there's a few pounds of belly fat -- my pants are a bit snugger. I was comfortable in 30 waist jeans and shorts for a couple of years but now I'm somewhere between 30 and my old 32 waist pants.

And I got sick in late September -- upper respiratory inflammation, mostly sinuses, nasal passages, pharyngeal area, but no bronchitis or pneumonia. Three COVID tests were negative but the symptoms were the same. My doctors said there are other viruses that cause similar symptoms. But if I wasn't sick enough for the ER or to be admitted they wouldn't schedule an appointment to figure out what it was, so I just had to tough it out. The most they'd do was authorize a couple of courses of oral Prednisone between October and December, which helped with the inflammation, but also screwed up my metabolism and cortisol balance, and probably contributed somewhat to my weight gain.

I haven't ridden a bike since October -- still too many bouts with vertigo -- so I'm running, jogging or just walking when I don't have energy for running. But it's not as effective at fat burning as long moderate bike rides. I should dig out the trainer from the closet or under the bed to get my bike legs back and work toward outdoor rides in good weather. Per Strava and other data I'm at less than half my usual activity compared with the past five years.

So, hard to say what effect, if any, HMB has for me. I might increase the dosage since I feel no effects at all, good or bad.

Fortunately my upper respiratory inflammation finally began to clear up the past week or so. And I've cut out most of the sugar and junk carbs. So in a few more weeks I might be able to tell whether my weight gain is muscle or fat. If my weight stays around 160 (it's usually around 150, sometimes 145) but I can still fit my 30 waist jeans, then it's muscle. I know from working out methodically in my youth that I never gain weight in my legs, they just get more defined. If I gain any muscle it's always upper body. I still have my old Navy pea coat from 1976, size 40R, and I can gauge my upper body weight by how that jacket fits since that heavy wool doesn't stretch much. I wore it last week during a cold snap over a sweat shirt and it still fit comfortably. The only time it hasn't fit was when I weighed over 200 lbs after a 2001 car wreck that busted up my back and neck.

For a couple of years I've taken various brands of beta ecdysterone, mostly in the form of powdered cyanotis arachnoidae root from various sources in China. Since it's just a dried powdered root potency varies tremendously from batch to batch. Some batches produce a definite effect, almost comparable to the first three days of taking Prednisone -- without the cortisol crash Prednisone produces after about a week. But the last batch I got seems to be weak. Potency seems to be related to how odiferous and sticky the power is. Some users describe the odor as stinky or foul. To me it just smells similar to galangal root and fenugreek, and could be used in a curry powder. The most recent batch is comparable to dollar store spices compared with expensive top shelf herbs and spices -- weak, only vaguely like what you actually wanted. At this point every source of plant based beta ecdysterone I've tried is way too expensive for marginal benefits, so I won't be buying it again until either the quality control improves or prices drop. I might make an exception for exoskeleton based ecdysterone but I haven't found any commercial sources for that.

With the money I save on supplements that don't seem to do anything I can afford to buy middling grade steak from Kroger more often. At least I know the meat based protein and heme iron is doing me some good. Tasty too.
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Old 02-07-22, 07:53 AM
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I am always skeptical of studies done on non-athletes, but the following results on elite, trained athletes are mind blowing. They were young athletes.

W/Kg at the VT1 increased 13% vs a decline placebo arm.

VO2 max increased 4% in W/Kg and it seems FTP increased 6.7% in absolute power and 9% in W/kg (slight weight loss on HMB).

Heart rate up 9 beats vs placebo arm!!!

The study was done using the calcium salt version of HMB.

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...092-9/tables/2

https://jissn.biomedcentral.com/arti...970-015-0092-9

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Old 02-07-22, 09:39 AM
  #72  
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Heart rate up 9 beats vs placebo arm!!!
Good to see that, my own big increase makes more sense now. The study I found only had a small increase.

Thanks for pointing out NMN. I read up on it and will be keeping my eye on it .. too little data at this point for me to jump in though. Apparently the gains turn into losses if you stop taking it so you need to be 100% committed before jumping into that pool.

One more fuzzy data point on HMB: the main reason I decided to get on board is I am trying to lower my cholesterol to convince my doc I don't need a statin. I got re-tested last week and my cholesterol dropped by a third, low enough that my doc has green lighted me for no statin. I also changed my diet a lot so hard to say what helped, but my guess is 5-10% of the drop came from the HMB. Note that my levels had been more or less constant for many years so there clearly was something different going on.
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Old 02-07-22, 10:06 AM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
Good to see that, my own big increase makes more sense now. The study I found only had a small increase.

Thanks for pointing out NMN. I read up on it and will be keeping my eye on it .. too little data at this point for me to jump in though. Apparently the gains turn into losses if you stop taking it so you need to be 100% committed before jumping into that pool.

One more fuzzy data point on HMB: the main reason I decided to get on board is I am trying to lower my cholesterol to convince my doc I don't need a statin. I got re-tested last week and my cholesterol dropped by a third, low enough that my doc has green lighted me for no statin. I also changed my diet a lot so hard to say what helped, but my guess is 5-10% of the drop came from the HMB. Note that my levels had been more or less constant for many years so there clearly was something different going on.
The third human trial for NMN has completed, the study results are not yet published. I will be looking for those results, too.

I found a second, similar HMB study on elite athletes showing very, very similar improvements. To put it into context, these aerobic power improvements exceed what pro dopers from a decade ago would gain by increasing red blood cells by 10%, they would only get about 6% improvement in power, which of course can be enough to vault someone to the top in that rarified set of athletes. I never heard of this HMB stuff before.

Whether us oldies can regain some of our zip on the bike remains to be seen or at least I have not yet found aerobic power data on old athletes.

I have been putting NMN into my full fat yogurt each morning for just over 2 weeks. I see it as a fancy, expensive alternative to B3, which I have taken my whole adult life. I am detrained due to a serious accident 5 months ago and the fact it is winter here. I decided to do some hill intervals yesterday. My recent record personal best time on that hill is 2:50. I did 2:56 yesterday on my third repetition, and if I pushed harder, I might have trimmed 2-3 seconds off.
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Old 02-07-22, 12:12 PM
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
Good to see that, my own big increase makes more sense now. The study I found only had a small increase.

Thanks for pointing out NMN. I read up on it and will be keeping my eye on it .. too little data at this point for me to jump in though. Apparently the gains turn into losses if you stop taking it so you need to be 100% committed before jumping into that pool.

One more fuzzy data point on HMB: the main reason I decided to get on board is I am trying to lower my cholesterol to convince my doc I don't need a statin. I got re-tested last week and my cholesterol dropped by a third, low enough that my doc has green lighted me for no statin. I also changed my diet a lot so hard to say what helped, but my guess is 5-10% of the drop came from the HMB. Note that my levels had been more or less constant for many years so there clearly was something different going on.
What does that bolded sentence mean? Source? Does that mean that gains are reliant on NMN blood concentrations, take that away and you're back to zero?
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Old 02-07-22, 12:27 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
NMN is much "cheaper" than Tru Noagen's nicotinamide riboside (NR) and being one step closer to the ultimate target....SIRT 1-?, it is reportedly much more effective. It works much better than NR in my experience. $145 for 100 grams of powder lasting 3-12 months is not cheap but I spend five times that on vintage white teas. I am reading HMB with interest. Thanks for sharing that.

You mentioned many times that you have had two singular times in your aging where your athletic performance dropped precipitously. I started to have problems at about age 60. My skin quality was changing visibly and my Dermatologist's knife was becoming a friend. Some of my labs were not good. Long story short, sleep studies revealed a couple of eye openers. One of significance here was a complete lack of deep sleep. None. It is thought that the endocrine system releases critical hormones such as HGH during these deep sleep phases. My sleep was horrible. One thing I did to combat it was a whey powder shake in the afternoon along with a nap. It helped recovery a little. I have recently started taking a couple of new supplements including NMN and my sleep has not been this good in a decade. I actually went out for a ride in 35F rain.....have not figured the motivation out but it seems significant. Aging and vitality or lack thereof seem to go hand in hand. I cannot say one way or the other why I seem to be improving, but obviously sleep is critical to athletic performance. I see NMN as a fancy B3 vitamin but I do agree that there needs to be more clinical trials and studies and caution with any supplement is warranted. Me? I'm taking it.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jam...article/192981

https://www.nmn.com/news/nad-and-the-sleep-wake-cycle

https://nmnbio.co.uk/blogs/news/inso...-sleep-a-treat

https://thesleepdoctor.com/2019/09/2...hm-supplement/
So that's like $1/day or $7K over 20 years. Maybe that's worth it? IDK. Another $1/day for the trans-resveratrol? I'm already 6 years past my pull date. Maybe I don't want to extend? I turned the Army down on that.
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