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Discovered HMB about 10 days ago

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Discovered HMB about 10 days ago

Old 02-07-22, 01:05 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
So that's like $1/day or $7K over 20 years. Maybe that's worth it? IDK. Another $1/day for the trans-resveratrol? I'm already 6 years past my pull date. Maybe I don't want to extend? I turned the Army down on that.
I just finished David Sinclair's book, "Lifespan: Why We Age―and Why We Don't Have To" and although I might not want to live to 120, I'd like to be vigorous and healthy as long as possible. Three parents went the hard way and we took care of one for almost 5 years. Sinclair has devoted his scientific career to aging.

I am not a proponent of resveratrol but to each his own.

Worth is very subjective. I never felt life insurance was necessary or worth it and consequently, I never spent money on it. If a couple dollars per day and an hour of exercise would make my older years better or even less of a burden on others, I am in. When I see a medical professional and they confirm my medical history with, "YOU"RE not on ANY medicines?".......Nope. I hope to see that surprise in their eyes until I die.
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Old 02-07-22, 03:59 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
What does that bolded sentence mean? Source? Does that mean that gains are reliant on NMN blood concentrations, take that away and you're back to zero?
It was some mouse study where the control did better after supplementation was stopped:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32365524/

If you want to read lots of very noisy discussion on NAD+, NMN, NR try the NR Re-ddit channel, that is where I found mention of this study. https://www.******.com/r/NicotinamideRiboside/ (put Re-ddit minus dash in for stars)

EDIT: I had time to read the above article just now, I think the Re-ddit comment was noise as I could find no mention of what was asserted to be in that study by the Re-ddit poster. Still it is an interesting article enumerating many potential negatives based on rodent studies using much higher doses. Here is the article which shows how withdrawal of supplementation caused the study group to be beaten by the control. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41514-021-00078-3 . Note it is with NR which is a different NAD+ precursor.

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Old 02-07-22, 07:53 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by scottfsmith View Post
It was some mouse study where the control did better after supplementation was stopped:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32365524/

If you want to read lots of very noisy discussion on NAD+, NMN, NR try the NR Re-ddit channel, that is where I found mention of this study. https://www.******.com/r/NicotinamideRiboside/ (put Re-ddit minus dash in for stars)

EDIT: I had time to read the above article just now, I think the Re-ddit comment was noise as I could find no mention of what was asserted to be in that study by the Re-ddit poster. Still it is an interesting article enumerating many potential negatives based on rodent studies using much higher doses. Here is the article which shows how withdrawal of supplementation caused the study group to be beaten by the control. https://www.nature.com/articles/s41514-021-00078-3 . Note it is with NR which is a different NAD+ precursor.
Here's the PDF of that first study link: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ety_Assessment
Lots of questions. I don't like the sound of "epigenetic alterations." This stuff is Greek to me, but the fact that people who understand this stuff have questions about long-term supplementation bothers me.
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Old 02-07-22, 09:13 PM
  #79  
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On a hopeful note, this past Sunday we rode a route which we'd ridden in October 9 years ago with a different group. We were 7 minutes slower this time. This seems a very good sign. We are starting to get back in shape but still have a long way to go. Now that Covid is calming down again, we hope to get back in the gym next week. We were working out in the gym 2 hours a week in 2013, and I had a note on that ride, "We were strong."

On a different subject, I was getting up to pee in the night every 2 - 2-1/2 hours. I started doing Kegels, but that didn't seem to help much. I've been taking 3 or more grams of HMB for about a month now and I'm only peeing once or twice a night. I'm just as hydrated, but my unconscious mind just doesn't get stimulated to wake me up. I don't pee the bed, either! A wild guess is that the Kegeling has made my pelvic floor muscles stronger.
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Old 02-08-22, 05:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Here's the PDF of that first study link: https://www.researchgate.net/publica...ety_Assessment
Lots of questions. I don't like the sound of "epigenetic alterations." This stuff is Greek to me, but the fact that people who understand this stuff have questions about long-term supplementation bothers me.
Vitamin B3 (Nicotinamide) concerns you? This is a very commonly taken vitamin. The mega doses needed for death are in the 120-150 gram range. Most of the positive studies from that link are in the 500 mg to 3 gram range. When training hard (say 8-9 months out of the year), I take 500 mg daily. Yes, it cause me to flush. Have done so for pretty much my whole adult life. I reckon some who are on an SSRI could get equal benefit using Nicotinamide.

When I hear cyclist say food and weight loss is just calories in and calories out, I chuckle or actually laugh. Food (and supplements) can have good or bad epigenetic effects. Most of those effects from the crap most people eat are health negative. The whole point of doing the long ride weekly is to trigger epigenetic changes, such as AMPK and many others. Intermittent fasting can also be net positive as can exposure to cold. So can modest inflammation but some antioxidant supplements can counteract those positive effects. Regular exercise has profound positive epigenetic implications but cannot overcome the negative effects of a lousy diet. Epigenetics does not change your DNA, it enhances or degrades the expression of your genes.
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Old 02-08-22, 06:40 AM
  #81  
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Right, these studies are with 10-100x the dosage for humans. The point of them though is it will bring potential problems to look for in smaller doses.

They recently finished a few studies with humans and NMN at smaller doses and so far there have been no adverse reactions. There are going to be a lot more studies on it coming out soon so in a few years there will be a lot more data.

Re: night pee, I am also doing better recently on that but for me it goes up and down over the months in a seemingly random pattern so it is impossible to know if the HMB helped. For me the main thing I do is to limit drink and anything acidic after about 8PM. If my stomach is at all acidic in the PM I'll start popping antacids just to avoid all the night-time trips. I have not tried Kegels yet but probably should.
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Old 02-08-22, 11:56 AM
  #82  
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HMB looks like an inexpensive supplement to try.
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Old 02-08-22, 05:20 PM
  #83  
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I could eat anything with no difference in ride performance when I was in my twenties and thirties. Now that I am in my 70's I need to be more careful with carbs and take various supplements. The older we get the less efficient our bodies are at absorbing nutrients from the food we eat and with industrial farming the food has far less nutrients as well and more carcinogens.

My riding buddy has always suffered from saddle sores and with him it is that he rides commando with no underwear and so bacteria builds up in the chamois of his riding shorts. I have always worn cotton jocky shorts under my bike shorts and I have never had a problem with saddle sores.

While riding it is carbs that fuel the body and it becomes a matter of which carbs are most easily digested. Bananas and raisins are good fuel food and easy to carry along on a ride. Staying hydrated is important although the recommended volumes are to me crazy. Potasium, magnesium, and calcium are used by the muscles including heart muscle and so having these in short supply will cause problems. And recommended daily dosages are going to be understated for older people as the only time they are included is when the study uses a nursing open or mental institution and then wildly extrapolates the "findings".

One generation back most adults, in particular men, died before they reached 60 and so it is new ground in terms of trying to find reliable information that does not have a big pharma or AMA bias. It helps if you have a GP that practices sports medicine or functional medicine but these are few in number in the USA.
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Old 02-08-22, 07:16 PM
  #84  
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More results: I did some OLP (one-legged pedaling) intervals today. I do reps at 50-55 cadence and at 80-85 cadence. I was in gears 2 cogs higher than I've used in years. Blew me away. That Midlife Cyclist book poo-poos OLP. It's on-the-bike strength training. I pedal each leg to failure, trying for Z1 or greater power for 2 minutes or to failure, failure being defined as having an instant of slack chain as I bring the pedal over the top. It's a low HR muscle fiber recruitment exercise along with neuromuscular control. Definitely the sort of thing that HMB might improve.

When I can do it for 2 minutes, I go down the cassette another cog. Or if I'm not crying for my mommy, I should go to a harder gear. Makes a definite difference in my climbing ability. I do OLP with each leg, then 2 minutes legs together Z2, repeat until failure.
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Old 02-11-22, 05:40 AM
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Three or four days of HMB. Twice daily, 3 grams per day total. Seems like it really perks me up mentally like very alert mentally but no effect in terms of blood pressure or pulse.

I did my local 3 minute hill climb yesterday that I use for hard vo2 max type intervals. My power was the same as last week BUT I am now using a crank power meter vs hub power meter. I felt stronger as if I could have paced another 5 watts. I know I was stronger because there was a 15-20 mph headwind and my time was identical. At about 90 seconds, there is a 14-18% wall that just kills me and then it flattens out to 6-8% to the red barn finish line. What I noticed is less difficulty keeping the power down after the wall.

Is this possible? Or placebo?

Vukovich and Geri showed 8-9% increase in VO2 with just 2 weeks of 3 grams per day.
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Old 02-11-22, 12:02 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Three or four days of HMB. Twice daily, 3 grams per day total. Seems like it really perks me up mentally like very alert mentally but no effect in terms of blood pressure or pulse.

I did my local 3 minute hill climb yesterday that I use for hard vo2 max type intervals. My power was the same as last week BUT I am now using a crank power meter vs hub power meter. I felt stronger as if I could have paced another 5 watts. I know I was stronger because there was a 15-20 mph headwind and my time was identical. At about 90 seconds, there is a 14-18% wall that just kills me and then it flattens out to 6-8% to the red barn finish line. What I noticed is less difficulty keeping the power down after the wall.

Is this possible? Or placebo?

Vukovich and Geri showed 8-9% increase in VO2 with just 2 weeks of 3 grams per day.
Only time will tell. I did 80' of 75% FTP yesterday and the pedals felt light for the first time. Of course that also makes my current FTP number suspect. I suspect it'll take more time for geezers to see results.
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Old 02-11-22, 12:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Only time will tell. I did 80' of 75% FTP yesterday and the pedals felt light for the first time. Of course that also makes my current FTP number suspect. I suspect it'll take more time for geezers to see results.
I am in sort of November in terms of training, just riding when I can and doing one hard workout per week. I missed 4 months and have really just been doing any riding in the past 4 weeks, tomorrow is my first 200k brevet on an upright in 6 years. I better take 3 oz of HMB for breakfast. I always like doing VO2 max intervals on a known hill, they don't lie. If I get up the hill faster with more power, it is good. I'm just not in any condition to even try an 80' of 75% FTP ride but hopefully in 4-6 weeks.
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Old 02-11-22, 12:28 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
I am in sort of November in terms of training, just riding when I can and doing one hard workout per week. I missed 4 months and have really just been doing any riding in the past 4 weeks, tomorrow is my first 200k brevet on an upright in 6 years. I better take 3 oz of HMB for breakfast. I always like doing VO2 max intervals on a known hill, they don't lie. If I get up the hill faster with more power, it is good. I'm just not in any condition to even try an 80' of 75% FTP ride but hopefully in 4-6 weeks.
Yeah, just eat it with a spoon. Hey, I thought you were the high volume moderate guy. Must be someone else. Seiler says we should be able to do 2 hours of that.

Have a good ride tomorrow!
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Old 02-11-22, 12:44 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Yeah, just eat it with a spoon. Hey, I thought you were the high volume moderate guy. Must be someone else. Seiler says we should be able to do 2 hours of that.

Have a good ride tomorrow!
Normally, yes. Not now, recovering from accident. I'm shooting for 40% FTP for 10 hours....like a hike. I am going to put the HMB into my morning yogurt at around 5 am. I don't see any GI risk.
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Old 02-11-22, 12:56 PM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62 View Post
Normally, yes. Not now, recovering from accident. I'm shooting for 40% FTP for 10 hours....like a hike. I am going to put the HMB into my morning yogurt at around 5 am. I don't see any GI risk.
Instead of 3 oz. before, try 1g before, 1g in a water bottle mid-ride, and 1g after. I believe the effect has a lifespan of 4-6 hours.
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Old 02-13-22, 09:19 AM
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I have been taking NMN for a little over two years, 1 gram a day sublingual. I took a couple of months to slowly start feeling more active, healing faster, riding better so I am going to continue. Taking HMB for about three months, 3g a day and really haven't noticed much improvement. I don't think it is helping me recover any better than before I started it but I committed for 6 months so will see
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Old 02-16-22, 05:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post

...my muscles hurt all the time, even after ordinary moderate rides...had to let 2-3 days go by between any moderately hard workouts. My resting HR was up several beats over what it was just a couple years ago. I also have another problem which seems to happen to older riders, namely saddle sores. My skin just can't take the pressure from a saddle anymore. It seemed to me that all these things might be connected...one seemed worthy of more study: HMB...
Describes my current situation to a T - gonna give HMB a try. Thanks for the info!

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Old 02-17-22, 09:18 AM
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For me, it's all about inflammation. Whatever I can do after a strenuous ride like using a foam roller for quads and hamstrings, heating pad or a massaging vibrator helps me recover. I also found that Meloxicam , a prescription drug anti-inflammatory helps me the most. Way better than any supplement. I try to take it sparingly only after a hard ride and on a full stomach. this plus yoga (stretching) allows me to ride 4-5 times a week. Sadly at age 74 I need this. Any other old timers that take meloxicam?

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Old 02-21-22, 01:40 PM
  #94  
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Two weeks of 3 grams HMB daily.

I have not done any sprints since September 3rd. Not one.

Today, I blew away all of my personal bests from peak power all the way to 15 seconds by about 80 watts. Best in a long time. My sprint stinks, so, I am hiding the absolute figure. It could be one thing......I switched from using a Powertap G3 hub powermeter to a crank meter. However, I compared the two meters side by side on a trainer and could not measure a difference. I also tied a PB on a 3 minute climb today, despite being porky. My legs do feel stronger.

HMB? Or placebo?
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Old 02-23-22, 09:48 PM
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My ride last Sunday took two rest days to recover from. I rode on the second, but took it easy. So I just received some 500mg HMB capsules and took one tonight with my usual after dinner: 1000IU D3 and 200mg Magnesium per the doctor, plus a 500mg vitamin C and a multivitamin, just because...

I'm also trying some Biotin, but I ordered way too high a dose than I should have, and naturally got two, to get free shipping, so I only take it once a week, after checking with my warfarin NP.

I'm not tracking performance much, but we'll see if fewer rest days are needed next time. Thanks for the thread.
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Old 02-24-22, 01:49 AM
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Originally Posted by frisky1 View Post
For me, it's all about inflammation. Whatever I can do after a strenuous ride like using a foam roller for quads and hamstrings, heating pad or a massaging vibrator helps me recover. I also found that Meloxicam , a prescription drug anti-inflammatory helps me the most. Way better than any supplement. I try to take it sparingly only after a hard ride and on a full stomach. this plus yoga (stretching) allows me to ride 4-5 times a week. Sadly at age 74 I need this. Any other old timers that take meloxicam?
I might ask my doctor about meloxicam. Unfortunately most NSAIDs trigger my psoriasis and psoriatic arthritis, so I can't take them for more than a few days at a time. I had to take ibuprofen and aspirin for chronic upper respiratory inflammation for months recently, from autumn until just recently, and now have the usual flare-ups of psoriasis patches on the skin and psoriatic arthritis. Cleared up the sinus and nasal inflammation, though. Prednisone used to work well for me, but this last time I took it the stuff messed up my endocrine system for weeks.
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Old 02-24-22, 04:32 AM
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I rode pretty hard yesterday or at least for my current fitness. I did 35 miles in hills (around 2500 feet of climbing) mostly at tempo but I did some hill sprints, too. Yesterday was the third day in a row that I rode with the first day being a hard interval session and the second day an easy ride. The Garmin 1030 said I needed 29 hours to recover and my training stress balance is -28, which a little bad for my current training load. Normally I would expect sore legs and some tiredness but my legs feel better than expected. I am still taking a rest day today but I FEEL as if I could ride again today.

My hill sprints showed almost as high power as Monday. Both 60-80 watts higher than my best in years. I track every training ride and have power data going back years.

Is it the HMB? I have no idea. It could be different technique? My left arm has a lot of hardware installed from an accident and sprinting is painful, I think I could be sprinting differently. Would be interesting if anyone else sees the same kind of improvement as I am seeing in power.

I am going to measure at the rear wheel and also at the crank on my next sprinting session. Chain friction is not linear under extreme tension, maybe that explains the extra power.

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Old 02-25-22, 11:47 AM
  #98  
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I'm still in winter training mode, haven't been out on my single with the PM. I went lift skiing yesterday, skied almost 20,000' of vertical. Haven't done that much in years. I was still having a great time, but my legs told me I should stop. I have most of my 20s technique back though I'm still weak in the bumps. It's coming though.
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Old 02-27-22, 06:55 AM
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Another quick report: Yesterday, I decided it was time to climb again and did the Road to Sky route. While my legs felt better at the start than they have lately, I waited until the start line of the Alpe to choose my strategy. I felt that they were too tired to put in a hard effort, especially since I wanted to do some more riding after. Therefore, I told myself to just settle in and shoot for somewhere around my previous time; don't push it. I never got really winded or anything. I just slogged up the mountain. Imagine my surprise when I took about a minute off my best time! I never felt that I was working that hard and I was flabbergasted as I approached the summit.

Even better was the follow up. I rode back down to the bottom to somewhat loosen up my legs. Then I did a lap of Watopia's Waistband. Even though I had just climbed the Alpe and my legs were really tired, I still managed to average one of my highest speeds around the course.

Of course, this is all anecdotal and nowhere near scientific but I do still feel that the HMB is helping. I'm taking 1 gram per day on normal days and 1.5 grams on riding days. Even though they state that 1 gram is the daily dose, I may increase it a bit when I finish the capsules and start on the powder, just to see what happens.
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Old 02-27-22, 11:54 PM
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I too am surprising myself with putting less than 100% efforts and beating some personal bests on climbs. Letís just say they were not 100% FTP efforts.

HMB is not supposed to provide any extra strength but maybe when you donít feel as tired, you perform better. Totally subject opinion.
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Last edited by rsbob; 02-28-22 at 12:05 AM.
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