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Any old guys here doing strength training?

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Any old guys here doing strength training?

Old 12-22-22, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
If you mean bone mass, I'd love to see that data.
I started here:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?ter...D+bone+density

The focus in postmenopausal women and sarcopenic old guys doesn't bother me, since they are, if anything, a harder case than elderly athletes who would go to the gym no matter what. As far as I can see, the news is all good.

Last edited by MoAlpha; 12-22-22 at 12:50 PM.
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Old 12-22-22, 08:50 PM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
I started here:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?ter...D+bone+density

The focus in postmenopausal women and sarcopenic old guys doesn't bother me, since they are, if anything, a harder case than elderly athletes who would go to the gym no matter what. As far as I can see, the news is all good.
Thanks. This is the best discussion of those issues I've come across:
Physical activity and bone: The importance of the ... - NTNU

There's a button there to download the free PDF for study.

An error of thought which I was making was that I assumed that G forces had to be gravitational. I was ignoring the multiplier effect of the contracting muscles as this article discusses. So say we're squatting bodyweight. That's only 2Gs and the literature say that the effect starts at about 4Gs. But adding the multiplier effect of the muscles, maybe it's really 6G? One would have to have a very good idea of the anatomy involved and work out the vectors of the muscular contractions to see what forces were really being applied to the bones. I suppose it's simpler math to study the effects of doing that on human beings, but that takes a lot longer and costs a lot more.

Medical evidence trumps math in any case, but it's good to see the science behind the evidence.
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Old 12-22-22, 09:23 PM
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Every other day I do squats, lunges, core exercises, pushups, planks, and others as well as upper body free weights. Before starting, I had chronic back and stabbing shoulder pain, made even worse by cycling. Now I am 95% pain free thanks to my routine. Best decision I ever made. Have I gained leg strength? Maybe a little, but being pain free is great compensation.
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Old 12-23-22, 05:19 AM
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I've done bodyweight exercises for years, starting in 2014 after finally determining to recover from serious neck and back injuries I experienced after my car was t-boned in 2001. Cracked six vertebrae, two in each spinal region, some hip and knee injury. For years I walked with a cane but in 2014 got fed up with the whole mess and worked myself back into shape. It's an ongoing process, as it is for all of us after we hit age 50-60... or, rather, it hits us.

I just turned 65 recently and my Medicare replacement program notified me of some participating gyms that offer no cost or low cost membership, so I'll check those out. I'm not interested in free weights but would like to find some good weight machines, access to a pull-up bar (my apartment door frames won't handle that stress), treadmills, etc. I know from visiting a physical therapy clinic in 2019 to recover from another car collision (driver hit me in 2018 while I was on a bike ride), I know it's easier to exercise some body parts more efficiently with weight machines, especially the legs, hips and lower back. And it's hard to beat curls and pullups for biceps, lats, etc. I can't really approximate those effectively with body weight alone.

I vary my workout a lot, depending on how I feel or what seems to need work. When I'm doing long walks or jogging along a favorite rural route, I'll stop along several spots to do pushups, usually doing 50-100 in sets of 10 or 20 interspersed throughout my usual 3-5 mile route. If I do the long 5-7 mile route, I'll stop at the crest of a long incline to do core work -- 50-100 crunches, leg raises, scissors, etc., to work the abs, hips and back.

While I'm walking I'll do isometric exercises for my arms, including biceps, shoulders and neck. And shadow boxing. I was an amateur boxer years ago and still find the no-contact parts of the workout useful for muscle tone, balance and overall flexibility. Often that's part of my warmup before jogging or running, since neck pain has been my main hindrance for years, with worsening cervical spine stenosis. The warmup exercises help relieve some of the pain temporarily, long enough to finish a 1-2 hour walk, jog or run. But the pain always creeps back later in the day, especially while I'm sleeping. But at least these basic exercises relieve some of the pain and stiffness long enough to get me through jogging or cycling.

Unfortunately the neck pain has gotten bad enough that I've cut way back on cycling, from around 5,000-6,000 miles a year to only 600 miles this year. I'm still spending about the same amount of time exercising, but Strava doesn't give nearly as much credit for running as it does cycling, so on graphs it looks like my activity and effort have plummeted to 25% of my former activities. In reality, my jogging and running workouts feel significantly harder than cycling, other than some cycling interval training and hill repeats, and the occasional time trial to check my one hour tempo effort.

Part of the problem is a beta blocker I'm taking now (to prevent migraines, not for high BP or tachycardia) has reduced my heart rate 10-20 bpm, so while my perceived effort is the same, Strava interprets it as loafing. Strava interprets a leisurely 2 mile errand walk, sans HR monitor, as equal to my 5-6 mile running workouts with HR monitor So I'm going to discontinue wearing my Tickr for most workouts, other than an occasional maximum or near maximum effort once or twice a month.

For example, last Sunday I did a brutal 6 mile run with intervals, including hill strides and several sprints on the flats. Wearing a heart rate monitor, rather than my former heart rate of 160+ bpm on the same efforts, Now, with the beta blocker, I'm around 140-150 bpm. Strava estimated the relative effort for that at 75. That was one of my most exhausting running workouts since I resumed running in late 2019 and I was so achy that night I could barely walk Monday. But I slept well.

Tuesday I took a 9 mile walk over a four hour period, alternating between a brisk and leisurely pace, combined with some shopping and store browsing. Not really a workout, per se, despite the miles. No heart rate monitor. Based on similar recent walks wearing a heart rate monitor, Strava would have estimated the relative effort at around 30. But without the Tickr, it said 99.

My usual leisurely errand walks of 1-2 miles get a relative effort score of around 5-10 wearing the HR monitor, 20-30 without. It defaults to my age group estimates without the heart rate data. Even modifying the zones and thresholds make little or no difference.

That's ridiculous and makes Strava's relative effort gauge useless for my workouts. Some of the YouTube training plans I've seen also tend to dismiss heart rate and zone training as a useful metric for anyone other than elite athletes in their primes. I disputed that notion for awhile but now I gotta admit - they probably have a valid point about maintenance fitness activities for someone my age in my condition.

Between age and meds and substances that affect my heart rate up (thyroid, Sudafed, caffeine) and down (beta blocker, some supplements), heart rate is no longer a useful metric for me. I have no other heart issues, no complications to worry about, so I'll just go back to relying on perceived effort, breathing, etc., to gauge my efforts for routine, hard and recovery workouts. Worked fine for me up until I got a Tickr in 2019 or 2020 and began obsessing over useless trivia.

So I'll keep the Tickr for occasional checks at home using the Elite HRV app, and for indoor trainer sessions, especially intervals and max efforts to gauge my maximum heart rate. But I'll be glad to be rid of the uncomfortable pressure on my chest during routine running and cycling sessions.
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Old 12-23-22, 08:14 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
I started here:

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?ter...D+bone+density

The focus in postmenopausal women and sarcopenic old guys doesn't bother me, since they are, if anything, a harder case than elderly athletes who would go to the gym no matter what. As far as I can see, the news is all good.
The ncbi is rife with articles about women and bone density problems. Here is an interesting article that looks at VO2, max power, strength training and bone density in men. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7104585/

It supports my world view so I think it is correct.

IMO, bone density and bone loss for various reasons is complex. I am not so sure that impact and more severe bone loading is required to maintain bone density.

I workout in the gym and focus on increasing strength. I think strength is crucial to maintain ones health as well as ride a bike. And I think that high intensity on the bike effects epigenetics in a positive way preserving quality of life. YMMV.
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Old 12-24-22, 07:26 AM
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Originally Posted by Hermes View Post
The ncbi is rife with articles about women and bone density problems. Here is an interesting article that looks at VO2, max power, strength training and bone density in men. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7104585/

It supports my world view so I think it is correct.

IMO, bone density and bone loss for various reasons is complex. I am not so sure that impact and more severe bone loading is required to maintain bone density.

I workout in the gym and focus on increasing strength. I think strength is crucial to maintain ones health as well as ride a bike. And I think that high intensity on the bike effects epigenetics in a positive way preserving quality of life. YMMV.
Well, I like your worldview, but not that paper!

On a technical level, they computed way too many correlations with no attempt account for the number of statistical tests, greatly increasing the likelihood of finding spurious relationships. Bottom line, those p values are worthless. The other problem is that, as one might expect, many of those dimensions are “autocorrelated,” meaning that they are not independent of each other and they should not have been treated as such. The data set was begging for a principle component analysis, which reduces the dimensionality and finds the underlying, meaningful, trends. Sadly, however, the sample size of 50 is far too small for a valid study with this many dimensions. As a scientific journal editor, I would not have sent this out for review.

Even if we accept the analysis and conclusions, I don’t find it surprising or informative that parameters associated with physical robustness show correlations. Finally, I can’t believe there was no mention of smoking in a sample of middle aged Lebanese men!

Give me an interventional study in anyone, any day!

Sorry to dump like this, but, hey, it’s what the taxpayers pay me for.
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Old 12-24-22, 07:59 AM
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Yup. Go to the Y, or use kettlebells.
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Old 12-24-22, 08:16 AM
  #33  
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Absolutely, positively yes, mostly at the local YMCA. For the last 20 years I have done weight training for arm, shoulder, and torso toning and fitness. I do my mostly-road cycling for cardio, but supplement it with a lot of fast walking for lower body weight-bearing exercise. It's all about balance and a well-rounded exercise routine.
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Old 12-24-22, 10:09 AM
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
Well, I like your worldview, but not that paper!

On a technical level, they computed way too many correlations with no attempt account for the number of statistical tests, greatly increasing the likelihood of finding spurious relationships. Bottom line, those p values are worthless. The other problem is that, as one might expect, many of those dimensions are autocorrelated, meaning that they are not independent of each other and they should not have been treated as such. The data set was begging for a principle component analysis, which reduces the dimensionality and finds the underlying, meaningful, trends. Sadly, however, the sample size of 50 is far too small for a valid study with this many dimensions. As a scientific journal editor, I would not have sent this out for review.

Even if we accept the analysis and conclusions, I dont find it surprising or informative that parameters associated with physical robustness show correlations. Finally, I cant believe there was no mention of smoking in a sample of middle aged Lebanese men!

Give me an interventional study in anyone, any day!

Sorry to dump like this, but, hey, its what the taxpayers pay me for.
Tell me what you really think,

The perils of reading and referencing papers from the NHI.
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Old 12-25-22, 08:30 PM
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You guys will like this. Authors review evidence that loss of motoneurons and skeletal muscle with aging is due to mitochondrial degeneration and that lifelong exercise may slow that process. J Physiol is a very solid, if somewhat nerdy, journal.
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Old 12-26-22, 06:49 PM
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Speaking only for myself (oblgatory disclaimer), the main reason I've tended to avoid any training other than riding and running is because... I just wanna hop on my bike and ride, or lace up my shoes and run. Like I could when I was younger. Like, 40 years ago.

But the reality is that the older I get, the longer it takes my body to warm up, loosen up and get ready to do anything.

Over Christmas weekend, Friday-Sunday, I tried three days in a row to go for a "real" run -- either a short speed workout (intervals, strides) or longer run of 7 miles or so, to prep for a solo unofficial half-marathon by the end of the year. Just a goal I've had for a couple of years that was delayed in winter 2021 by a long bout with the Super Cooties or some other upper respiratory bug. I did a continuous 10 mile run/jog/walk in late 2020, but knew I'd need more training to do a half marathon.

But the legs just didn't want to cooperate. And the weather was much colder than usual for Texas, with highs in the teens and lows in single digits. So I waited until afternoon Every day to start.

I didn't do much of a warmup, just a few stretches, squats, lunges, etc., maybe 5-10 minutes worth. In reality, the past few years I need a full hour warmup just to get ready for a "real" workout, bike ride or run.

I started out jogging slowly, walking when I got a bit winded, figuring I'd warm up within a mile to be ready to run. Nope. Never happened. Same Friday, Saturday and Sunday. Legs felt dead. Hips and knees ached, and I don't have any particular injuries or joint problems in my hips and knees, just uncooperative muscles. For years I've had more aches and pains with sudden, drastic barometric pressure shifts up or down, so it's nothing new to me.

I was so disappointed after yet another sluggish 3 mile jog Sunday that I decided to regard that as my warmup. Then I hopped on the indoor trainer for about 45 minutes, hoping to loosen up the legs. An hour afterward I felt better and decided to try a real running workout doing intervals, with full length strides for 30-60 seconds, interspersed with walking or slow jogging until my breath and heart rate slowed, etc. Felt much better, hit most of my usual best peak speeds for this kind of workout.

And afterward I did another 45 minute cool-down spin on the indoor trainer. Legs felt better than usual.

But it irks me that I need to plan on at least an hour warmup, and possibly another hour cool-down, scheduled around any exercise more vigorous than a walk or very leisurely bike ride. In that regard, it's like being back in my teens and 20s, training for amateur boxing, and spending almost all of my free time - apart from school or work - in the gym or doing roadwork. After awhile it dominates your life and seems impossible to juggle amid work, school, family, and just needing time to depressurize.

The older I get the more I can see why so many people my age just give up, become sedentary and obese. It's literally a pain just to limit the inevitable decline, let alone indulge in wishful thinking about improving fitness.
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Old 12-27-22, 08:02 AM
  #37  
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69 year old. I had a gym membership for nearly 35 years, but being on the road for most of that time meant that my schedule made for a very sporadic regimen.
When I retired seven years ago, I got more into it, but when Covid hit, it got disrupted again.
So, I made the decision to acquire some home equipment. I had to keep it compact, because I dont have much space, so I went for an all in one multi gym.
My wife and I do regular workouts together three time a week, and I supplement that with some extra work on my own.
I have no regrets about that decision, and have dropped my membership never to return.
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Old 12-28-22, 04:03 PM
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Ive done basic circuit training fairly consistently for over 20 years. Examples include lat rows, dead lifts, curls, overhead raises and shrugs, all with dumbbells. Also push-ups, planks, side plank with leg lifts, and then the type of crunch with legs raised a bit off the floor and extended and lifting the head and torso just off the floor, both middle and each side. Not to add mass, just to maintain tone and fitness. Now that I mainly run, I want to keep my weight just where it is.

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Old 12-29-22, 03:23 PM
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Every day pull ups and exercises with rubber band. No weights, no push ups, save your back!
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Old 12-29-22, 08:13 PM
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Originally Posted by car5car View Post
Every day pull ups and exercises with rubber band. No weights, no push ups, save your back!
Once upon a time I was also leery of loading up my back. Only problem with that is that my back got sore and I needed stronger legs, so I started squatting (full depth) and doing all sorts of back loading weight work, plus planks and pushups. That work improved the bone quality in my back and my sciatica went away, along with piriformis syndrome, and of course my legs got stronger, too. I had been more worried about disc compression and arthritic facets, but I was wrong about those things and not worried enough about my vertebrae. Turns out, whatever it is, if we don't work it, it goes to hell. The older I've become, the more I've been concerned about bone strength. My mom more or less died because of spinal compression fractures, starting with one fall on her butt. That was not a good way to go.
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Old 12-29-22, 08:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Once upon a time I was also leery of loading up my back. Only problem with that is that my back got sore and I needed stronger legs, so I started squatting (full depth) and doing all sorts of back loading weight work, plus planks and pushups. That work improved the bone quality in my back and my sciatica went away, along with piriformis syndrome, and of course my legs got stronger, too. I had been more worried about disc compression and arthritic facets, but I was wrong about those things and not worried enough about my vertebrae. Turns out, whatever it is, if we don't work it, it goes to hell. The older I've become, the more I've been concerned about bone strength. My mom more or less died because of spinal compression fractures, starting with one fall on her butt. That was not a good way to go.
Whatever helps you is great.
I am trying to go by logic. Pull ups to stretch my disks, calcium to get bones, gelatin to restore disks.
I also do bend overs (???) exercise, to pump back muscles, holding spine disks in place.
People break their bones because of osteoporosis (calcium deficiency.)
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Old 12-29-22, 08:44 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
So what kind of Winter strength training do Bike Forums old guys do?

Since it's the time of year we spend more time indoors than outdoors, I've been thinking about doing some full body strength training. Because:
  1. to maintain some of that mid-season fitness
  2. to do something about this "98 pound weakling" cyclist physique
  3. health experts say resistance training is important for us olds to maintain strength
  4. I've never done it before, might as well try something new
I started doing some at-home exercises: squats, planks, bicycle crunches (love that name), dumbbells, ballerina jumping jacks (don't laugh, they're hard). Feels pretty good, so far. And it's surprising good aerobic exercise.

What are others doing?

BTW, here's a bicycle crunch:


Image credit: Amy White, amybcrandall@gmail.com

And ballerina jumping jacks:


Is that your girlfriend? Let me know, when you decide to upgrade to newer model...
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Old 12-30-22, 10:05 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by car5car View Post
Whatever helps you is great.
I am trying to go by logic. Pull ups to stretch my disks, calcium to get bones, gelatin to restore disks.
I also do bend overs (???) exercise, to pump back muscles, holding spine disks in place.
People break their bones because of osteoporosis (calcium deficiency.)
We wish it were calcium deficiency.
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Old 12-30-22, 12:04 PM
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I do pushups, backward chair push-ups, and 19 lb. dumbbells.

I'm at an age where I fear falling and breaking something, so one objective is to survive minor falls. I also thinks it helps keep my posture upright and straight.
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Old 12-30-22, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
I do pushups, backward chair push-ups, and 19 lb. dumbbells.

I'm at an age where I fear falling and breaking something, so one objective is to survive minor falls. I also thinks it helps keep my posture upright and straight.
Yeah, me too. I've now passed out twice on my rollers, a little floor rash, nothing broken. Wish my cardiologist would hurry up and figure out what's gong on. Good advert for lifting heavy at the gym anyway.

Latest rage for bone strength is doing one-legged jumps. I can do that, but have to hold on to something. Running upstairs is easier so maybe not as good? When aged folk fall, the usual thing to break is the femoral neck.
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Old 12-31-22, 03:33 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
Yeah, me too. I've now passed out twice on my rollers, a little floor rash, nothing broken. Wish my cardiologist would hurry up and figure out what's gong on. Good advert for lifting heavy at the gym anyway.

Latest rage for bone strength is doing one-legged jumps. I can do that, but have to hold on to something. Running upstairs is easier so maybe not as good? When aged folk fall, the usual thing to break is the femoral neck.
You must have exemplary circulation! How does that passing out happen?

I would be thinking of lashing together a pair of mattresses or cushions of closed-cell foam on each side of the rollers! Or maybe secure the roller rack to the wall on one side and a cushion on the other side. I also think of the heavy wrestling mats we used to set up in high school gym class. Like Dojo practice, the students learn to be safe by setting up the equipment!
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Old 12-31-22, 12:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Road Fan View Post
You must have exemplary circulation! How does that passing out happen?

I would be thinking of lashing together a pair of mattresses or cushions of closed-cell foam on each side of the rollers! Or maybe secure the roller rack to the wall on one side and a cushion on the other side. I also think of the heavy wrestling mats we used to set up in high school gym class. Like Dojo practice, the students learn to be safe by setting up the equipment!
That's one of the many things that the cardiologist hasn't figured out. I've quit riding until I get a diagnoses - worried I'll make something worse. Don't want that. There's a good chance that this doc is just too young and I'll have to find someone more experienced. Meanwhile, I've a angiogram on Jan. 5. Hate this. I'm losing fitness!
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Old 12-31-22, 01:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
That's one of the many things that the cardiologist hasn't figured out. I've quit riding until I get a diagnoses - worried I'll make something worse. Don't want that. There's a good chance that this doc is just too young and I'll have to find someone more experienced. Meanwhile, I've a angiogram on Jan. 5. Hate this. I'm losing fitness!
Take that fainting seriously. It might be nothing, but what it could be is a big deal.

My employee and very strong rider fainted on a trainer, but he brushed it off. A few weeks later, he had a massive heart attack.

Fitness can be regained.
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Old 12-31-22, 02:24 PM
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
I'm at an age where I fear falling and breaking something, so one objective is to survive minor falls. I also thinks it helps keep my posture upright and straight.
Im also allergic to hard falls on the ground. One of the several benefits Ive noticed this year from switching to only minimal or barefoot style shoes is that having zero heel has improved my balance and posture.

Also the minimal height of the shoes feels more stable and I have a better feel of the ground. Way more stable walking or running around the tight corners of our indoor track than I was with traditional running shoes.

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Old 12-31-22, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Take that fainting seriously. It might be nothing, but what it could be is a big deal.

My employee and very strong rider fainted on a trainer, but he brushed it off. A few weeks later, he had a massive heart attack.

Fitness can be regained.
Yes. Fainting or lightheadedness DURING, as opposed to after, exercise is a malignant sign and should always be investigated.
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