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Fast After 50 or Zone 2 Approach?

Old 09-05-23, 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted by deacon mark
I don't think I relate to anything here mentioned. I have been a long-distance runner and cyclist for 45 years. I now only cycle due to runner's dystonia but I ride about 8-10,000 miles year I don't train for anything just like to ride and get a workout. At 62 my resting pulse is like 39 and I find it almost impossible to get my heart rate above 140. On a long and hard climb I can get 145. The last time I saw 158 my supposed max was almost 2 years ago up a 6 percent grade for a mile. All my training my HR runs between 102-120 bpm. I rarely average about 115. According to garmin I am not work hard and while I am not out of breath of having and chest issues I just cannot crank it above that BPM.

My guess is I rarely take time off and if I did probably recovery and 3-4 days rest I would have much more power including HR but who knows. I just wonder if any other long time endurance folks see this trend in their training?
Itís definitely a lot easier for me to get my HR to 160 while running. Not so easy cycling, but itís a different activity.

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Old 09-05-23, 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted by deacon mark
I don't think I relate to anything here mentioned. I have been a long-distance runner and cyclist for 45 years. I now only cycle due to runner's dystonia but I ride about 8-10,000 miles year I don't train for anything just like to ride and get a workout. At 62 my resting pulse is like 39 and I find it almost impossible to get my heart rate above 140. On a long and hard climb I can get 145. The last time I saw 158 my supposed max was almost 2 years ago up a 6 percent grade for a mile. All my training my HR runs between 102-120 bpm. I rarely average about 115. According to garmin I am not work hard and while I am not out of breath of having and chest issues I just cannot crank it above that BPM.

My guess is I rarely take time off and if I did probably recovery and 3-4 days rest I would have much more power including HR but who knows. I just wonder if any other long time endurance folks see this trend in their training?
Mu exercise HR is also pretty low, about what you do. On a 1 mile 6% hill, my HR probably wouldn't get over 155 BPM over the 5-6 minutes. It just takes me longer to hit max HR. I can hit 176 on the bike and 183 on foot. 145 BPM is about my functional threshold although Garmin says it is 153, Grmin is a liar.
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Old 09-05-23, 08:36 PM
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Originally Posted by deacon mark
I don't think I relate to anything here mentioned. I have been a long-distance runner and cyclist for 45 years. I now only cycle due to runner's dystonia but I ride about 8-10,000 miles year I don't train for anything just like to ride and get a workout. At 62 my resting pulse is like 39 and I find it almost impossible to get my heart rate above 140. On a long and hard climb I can get 145. The last time I saw 158 my supposed max was almost 2 years ago up a 6 percent grade for a mile. All my training my HR runs between 102-120 bpm. I rarely average about 115. According to garmin I am not work hard and while I am not out of breath of having and chest issues I just cannot crank it above that BPM.

My guess is I rarely take time off and if I did probably recovery and 3-4 days rest I would have much more power including HR but who knows. I just wonder if any other long time endurance folks see this trend in their training?
Perhaps your cardiac output is enough that, for a non-weight bearing activity like cycling, you are limited instead by muscle metabolic function and arenít able to tax your cardiovascular system fully before reaching maximum power?

Otto
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Old 09-06-23, 05:40 AM
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Originally Posted by deacon mark
I don't think I relate to anything here mentioned. I have been a long-distance runner and cyclist for 45 years. I now only cycle due to runner's dystonia but I ride about 8-10,000 miles year I don't train for anything just like to ride and get a workout. At 62 my resting pulse is like 39 and I find it almost impossible to get my heart rate above 140. On a long and hard climb I can get 145. The last time I saw 158 my supposed max was almost 2 years ago up a 6 percent grade for a mile. All my training my HR runs between 102-120 bpm. I rarely average about 115. According to garmin I am not work hard and while I am not out of breath of having and chest issues I just cannot crank it above that BPM.

My guess is I rarely take time off and if I did probably recovery and 3-4 days rest I would have much more power including HR but who knows. I just wonder if any other long time endurance folks see this trend in their training?
My top end HR while riding is lower than most people. And I seem to have a tight range - it's hard for me to ride below 115, and getting above 165 (at 51 years old) is painful. But I can ride at 145-150 all day if I choose.

Training zones set by power don't match what the typical HR zones should be. My Z2 using HR puts my power down into Z1 vs my FTP. I train by power numbers...

My watts per BPM delta seems to be greater than the other people I ride with - by a big margin. But they have more top end HR, so it all equals out. When effort increases, I see a slow rise in HR where their HR's shoot up...
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Old 09-07-23, 04:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Maybe so. Cause and effect are hard to suss out. It is interesting that I didn't get Afib like most of my overcooked friends. I did get 3 stents, one after a minor heart attack, but I don't think that had much to do with my drop-off. My issue is a gradual failure of my heart's overall electrics and then a more singular, abrupt failure. My resting HR remained stable at about 46 and my standing resting HR at about 54, while my ability at higher levels deteriorated. I started taking my HRV in December of '17. For those of you familiar with these numbers, my average SDNN declined from about 35 then to about 17 now.

I had a partial right bundle branch block over an unknown longer period. The abrupt change was that I developed a block between my atria and ventricles at HRs over 120, first noticed in October '22. The HR at which that block started became steadily lower until in June of '23 it was down to 110. It I tried to work my HR at over those limits, I passed out. I got a pacemaker to help with that issue this August. It's unclear if I will ever ride outdoors again, at least in our local hilly terrain.

I also developed an arrhythmia, premature ventricular contractions (PVCs) which have become more and more frequent putting a possible cap on my safe HR at about 115, at which point I develop periods of stable Vtach. I can no longer take my HRV as my PVCs come about every 20-30 seconds.

None of my 3 cardiologists have any idea why these issues developed. I rather think it had something to do with working my heart so hard for so long, but that's just speculation. It's taken almost a year to get these issues diagnosed because my cardiologists haven't seen anything quite like this.

If I keep my HR down, I can do a lot of things just fine, like hike, backpack, ride my bike on the flat, and go to the gym. My HR seldom goes over 100 with those activities.
Just wanted to say your posts and guidance has always given me inspiration and hope.

There is no way to know why we degrade the way we do as we age. You have aged unbelievably well and that you can still do what you do despite the recent setbacks is amazing, but I am sure it is a hard pill to swallow. I know it is difficult for me to accept my ongoing progression of symptoms from impaired cervical vertebrae and discs and it is probably my fault, crashing into stuff as a kid and adult playing risky sports. Or the luck of the draw or genetics. Same with your heart. Who knows, really.

Enjoy hiking the mountains. Sorry to hear of your cardiac challenges
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Old 09-07-23, 06:45 AM
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Originally Posted by deacon mark
I don't think I relate to anything here mentioned. I have been a long-distance runner and cyclist for 45 years. I now only cycle due to runner's dystonia but I ride about 8-10,000 miles year I don't train for anything just like to ride and get a workout. At 62 my resting pulse is like 39 and I find it almost impossible to get my heart rate above 140. On a long and hard climb I can get 145. The last time I saw 158 my supposed max was almost 2 years ago up a 6 percent grade for a mile. All my training my HR runs between 102-120 bpm. I rarely average about 115. According to garmin I am not work hard and while I am not out of breath of having and chest issues I just cannot crank it above that BPM.

My guess is I rarely take time off and if I did probably recovery and 3-4 days rest I would have much more power including HR but who knows. I just wonder if any other long time endurance folks see this trend in their training?
This quote in another thread caught my eye in relation to this and could be of interest.

Originally Posted by MoAlpha
Incidentally, a low RHR and a blunted HR response to a moderate exercise challenge are a predictors of a-fib in older folks.
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Old 09-08-23, 05:42 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
This quote in another thread caught my eye in relation to this and could be of interest.
Me too but I think I kept my mouth shut.

Sometimes when really fit, my heart skips beats (PVC) and it makes it appear my resting HR is low when taking it at the wrist feeling the pulse. If the poster was referring to HR during sleep, 39 bpm might is in the ballpark but resting in a chair? That is low for an older

OTOH, the stroke volume is maximized when doing huge volume at Z2 like backpackers in the mountain. So, the limit of performance isn't the cardiac output. My HR is also relatively low at threshold and my power is pretty high with a low HR. My legs just can't use the capacity.

RHR in the 30's is usually younger endurance athletes but who knows.

Many decades ago, I was with a company designing a cardiac stent and the fatigue limits of the stent were related to the average number of heart beats that we all get in out lifetime. So, a lower RHR might well be good mortality-wise.
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Old 09-08-23, 06:08 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
Me too but I think I kept my mouth shut.

Sometimes when really fit, my heart skips beats (PVC) and it makes it appear my resting HR is low when taking it at the wrist feeling the pulse. If the poster was referring to HR during sleep, 39 bpm might is in the ballpark but resting in a chair? That is low for an older

OTOH, the stroke volume is maximized when doing huge volume at Z2 like backpackers in the mountain. So, the limit of performance isn't the cardiac output. My HR is also relatively low at threshold and my power is pretty high with a low HR. My legs just can't use the capacity.

RHR in the 30's is usually younger endurance athletes but who knows.

Many decades ago, I was with a company designing a cardiac stent and the fatigue limits of the stent were related to the average number of heart beats that we all get in out lifetime. So, a lower RHR might well be good mortality-wise.
It was the part about not being able to get above 145 on a hard, long climb that made me wonder.

I know we are all different, but I find my HR is quite dynamic in response to really hard efforts. For example yesterday I did a long simulated climb on my trainer, which had a steady 5-6% slope for the first 8 km and then kicked up to an average 10% over the last km, with a few ramps over 15%. I took it fairly steady on the shallow part and my HR stabilised at around 150 (all day level for me). But then I went full gas up the last km and went over the top at 190 (very close to max). My average HR for the last couple of mins was 184. So ignoring the absolute numbers, which I know vary widely across individuals, my delta was still around 40 bpm between comfortable Z2 and a sustained effort well above FTP. When I recovered over the top of the climb my HR quickly dropped back into Z2 as I was still reasonably fresh.

I donít know much about you diesels to know what is a ďnormalĒ HR response to a sudden major effort. For me HR ramps up fairly quickly at VO2 max power level to within 5-10 beats of my max and after 5 mins I an bouncing off my limiter!
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Old 09-08-23, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
It was the part about not being able to get above 145 on a hard, long climb that made me wonder.

I know we are all different, but I find my HR is quite dynamic in response to really hard efforts. For example yesterday I did a long simulated climb on my trainer, which had a steady 5-6% slope for the first 8 km and then kicked up to an average 10% over the last km, with a few ramps over 15%. I took it fairly steady on the shallow part and my HR stabilised at around 150 (all day level for me). But then I went full gas up the last km and went over the top at 190 (very close to max). My average HR for the last couple of mins was 184. So ignoring the absolute numbers, which I know vary widely across individuals, my delta was still around 40 bpm between comfortable Z2 and a sustained effort well above FTP. When I recovered over the top of the climb my HR quickly dropped back into Z2 as I was still reasonably fresh.

I don’t know much about you diesels to know what is a “normal” HR response to a sudden major effort. For me HR ramps up fairly quickly at VO2 max power level to within 5-10 beats of my max and after 5 mins I an bouncing off my limiter!
I can only say what my data says.

I did a 20 minute Sweetspot at 250 watts with average HR of 126bpm and within a minute of concluding the interval, my HR was down to 100-104. I did just under 6 minutes at 381 watts with HR hitting 163 and within a minute it was under 120 bpm and under 2 minutes under 100 bpm. I've hit 169 bpm this year although no idea when.

When I do shorter intervals with repeats, it might take 2 minutes for HR to come down. Say 350- 400 watts for 3 minutes. But my HR usually doesn't top 160 bpm on those sessions. To get max HR, I need a longer ramp up before going full gas. I am not hitting max HR in 5 minutes like you. On a cardiac stress test, I am still in zone 2 at 10 minutes. I can hit 183 running and last year 175 on the bike, I only test max HR once per year usually in the Fall. I hope post Covid I can still crack 175 bpm. It is a 5 minute tempo into a 5+ minute climb and full gas at the end. I never finish the climb, maybe just under 10 minutes but never timed, just a guess.

One of the inputs to HR control is CO2 level. I do not consider my low HR at harder efforts to be a problem, merely that my legs simply cannot use more. (post covid, my fractional utilization is much lower than in the past and my HR at threshold is also lower by around 10 beats and at least 30 watts)
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Old 09-08-23, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by GhostRider62
I can only say what my data says.

I did a 20 minute Sweetspot at 250 watts with average HR of 126bpm and within a minute of concluding the interval, my HR was down to 100-104. I did just under 6 minutes at 381 watts with HR hitting 163 and within a minute it was under 120 bpm and under 2 minutes under 100 bpm. I've hit 169 bpm this year although no idea when.
Okay, so thatís a rise of 37 from sweet spot to VO2 power. Thatís similar dynamics to what I see in that situation, but with a 25 beat offset.

But it sounded like the other guy I quoted was seeing a much smaller rise and fall in HR ie much less dynamic. That and his very low RHR made me think of what MoAlpha said.
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Old 09-08-23, 11:22 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
It was the part about not being able to get above 145 on a hard, long climb that made me wonder.

I know we are all different, but I find my HR is quite dynamic in response to really hard efforts. For example yesterday I did a long simulated climb on my trainer, which had a steady 5-6% slope for the first 8 km and then kicked up to an average 10% over the last km, with a few ramps over 15%. I took it fairly steady on the shallow part and my HR stabilised at around 150 (all day level for me). But then I went full gas up the last km and went over the top at 190 (very close to max). My average HR for the last couple of mins was 184. So ignoring the absolute numbers, which I know vary widely across individuals, my delta was still around 40 bpm between comfortable Z2 and a sustained effort well above FTP. When I recovered over the top of the climb my HR quickly dropped back into Z2 as I was still reasonably fresh.

I donít know much about you diesels to know what is a ďnormalĒ HR response to a sudden major effort. For me HR ramps up fairly quickly at VO2 max power level to within 5-10 beats of my max and after 5 mins I an bouncing off my limiter!
I do the same climb on ZWIFT with the bonus climb to the top and our heart rates are nearly identical which is very bizarre.
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Old 09-08-23, 11:49 AM
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Originally Posted by PeteHski
Okay, so thatís a rise of 37 from sweet spot to VO2 power. Thatís similar dynamics to what I see in that situation, but with a 25 beat offset.

But it sounded like the other guy I quoted was seeing a much smaller rise and fall in HR ie much less dynamic. That and his very low RHR made me think of what MoAlpha said.
I am regretting the use of the term "predictors," which I used in its technical, statistical sense and not to imply that if you have those things anyone could "predict" you'll develop a-fib. It would have been better to write, "have been associated with."
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Old 09-08-23, 12:47 PM
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Originally Posted by rsbob
I do the same climb on ZWIFT with the bonus climb to the top and our heart rates are nearly identical which is very bizarre.
This was actually one of the new Zwift Portal climbs - La Laguna Negra. But it is very similar in profile and length to the Epic KOM + Radio Tower bonus.

I had noted before that we have very similar HR stats.
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Old 09-12-23, 06:02 AM
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Originally Posted by ofajen
Perhaps your cardiac output is enough that, for a non-weight bearing activity like cycling, you are limited instead by muscle metabolic function and arenít able to tax your cardiovascular system fully before reaching maximum power?

Otto
This would be me. Fast twitcher, so the muscles shut down long before the heart really gets stressed. My aerobic system can't supply the needed amount of oxygen to keep those muscles firing either. That's life.
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