stonooka

I'm a retired senior with a vintage ('90ish) cross bike in good condition trying to learn how to road bike.

I can pedal pretty well (15-20 mph) on the flats with the big chain ring for long durations but have less strength and little stamina when spinning in the granny gears on grades and hills. I do not run out of breath before my legs give out.

Is there an efficient way to develop improved spinning performance in terms of stamina and strength? Should I be performing leg exercises in terms of lunges, squats, step ups, etc emphasizing quads and knees in addition to biking? I am small of stature, not overweight, and was a marathon wilderness day hiker and habitual daily walker before starting with biking. I believe my cardio capacity is good and I have a low resting heart rate.

Any advice from you experts would be appreciated. I posted a thread in the Training and Nuitrition section but did not get any responses. My thread there may have been too long winded.

Sinchi

cyclefoever

You are on the right track Cross training will help. I suggest that you ride long rides (2+ hours)
in the small chain ring (second ring if you have a triple) Keep your cadence high and stay in the 70 to 75% max heart rate zone. Longer rides at this heart rate will build endurance. An excellent source for training (for us older guys & Gals) is Cycling Past 50 - by Joe Friel. It is available from Amazon for $12.21.

I don't know how long you have been riding or how many miles per week you are doing, but the more you train the more endurance you can build. Hope this helps.

stapfam

Getting the cadence right for any of us will. or would have, taken practice. Most newcomers try to get speed out of the bike on the flat by getting it into the highest gear and grinding away. Not the fastest way to ride, not the most energy efficient and definitely not good for the cardio vascular or the knees.

I would not like to say that there is a correct cadence on a bike as everyone is different, I have a natural cadence now of around 90 to 95, but can get a lot higher, and can still work at lower cadence. What I like to do is keep the same cadence for all parts of the ride. Plenty of gear changing going on, but to me the effort through the legs is not excessive. If it gets hard, I change down, and then down and down and when I run out of gears- I slow down.
The main thing is I try to get the gearing right for my leg to feel comfortable, and still keep MY correct cadence. I have a friend that runs a far lower cadence than me, and he is fast and Super fit. His cadence is around 60 to 65 and boy does he climb those hills.---- For the first part of the ride, then he seems to see sense and slow down. Still keeps cadence low though. If the ride is a little longer than normal, then we find the reason for his seeing sense as he is shatterred.

Way to train? Spinning classes help, but they can be difficult to find and may not suit everyone. Try to find a cadence that is comfortable. 80 is still quite slow for a performance rider but you may be natural below that.Get your cadence working at a comfortable level, and concentrate on keeping that same cadence for a 5 mile ride. a few miles at the same cadence will get yourself in the pattern of what your legs like. It will not matter if you are in a low gear at low speed, or higher gear at higher speed. just try and concentrate on keeping the cadence. Then take in slopes where you will have to change gear to keep the cadence. You may find that your natural cadence is too slow so you strain the legs on the hills. Try to raise the cadence a bit and see if it improves, or you may be spinning too fast and running out of lungs.

One thing I have learnt over the years though, and that is if it hurts--Slow down. If it hurts that much then stop.

jppe

Great to see you out on the bike!!

I consider myself fairly new (approx 4 years) but enjoy it more every day. Here's what's worked for me. Get a cyclometer that has cadence and get into the habit of regularly monitoring your cadence while your riding. On flats and rolling hills, use whatever gear will allow you to spin in your comfort zone-keeping your heart rate below 80% of Max (able to easily talk while riding). Eventually you want to get to where you're spinning in the 90-100 rpm range and doing that naturally or without having to think about it. You may find that starting out it's a challenge just to stay in the 80-90 range. Don't worry about your speed-just monitor you heart rate and cadence as that is what you're trying to ride to. Over time, you'll probably find that you can guess what your cadence is without even looking at the cyclometer.

For most folks your cadence will drop on longer climbs and steep hills if you're trying to keep your heartrate from racing up. I usually find that I'm comfortable with a cadence in the 70-75 range for those situations.

Again from my experience, I have not found a better alternative than just riding the wheels off the bike. The more I do the better and more fit I seem to be. Having said that, I would think that any exercise that allows you to do "interval" work should really help with the overall effort. Interval work being an exercise that takes your heart rate up around or above the 80% bpm range for short periods and then have a recovery period.

jppe

Just don't give in to the urge to toss your bike into the ditch-I've seen that done!!

berts

To measure your progress you might try Cateye Astrale 8, an inexpensive but reliable cycle comp with cadence.
Ride only flat terrain preferably in no or low wind situations or on indoor trainer.
Keep cadence constant at 100+ for entire ride. You will eventually develop the proper cycling form including ankle motion and stamina to achieve high cadences for prolonged periods.
You should strive to increase the length of your trips up to 60 miles or whatever your objective distance may be.
Slowly include low hills into the ride keeping cadence constant.
Finally go for the mountains. To develop high cadence on the climbs you will have to develop power which includes high gear uphill work at low cadence, leg presses, squats, lower back exercises, etc. Once you have sufficient power start increasing cadence. It is possible to achieve rpm's of around 100 on 6-10% grades, but very difficult.

Al1943

Hopefully you have a cadence meter on the bike. Select gears that will let you maintain a comfortable cadence in the 80's, then gradually work your way up into the 90's. And ride a lot. It really is that simple.

Al

stonooka

Thanks to all for the advice and response!

There seems to be universal agreement that the key is to maintain the correct aerobic cadence. I don't seem to be running out of breath so I hav'nt bothered to use my HRM. I guess while I'm learning, I should double check that my heart rate is the correct percentage of the max for my age.

My present bike conditioning is such that I run out of gears (although I have a pretty good granny of a 26t chain ring and 30t cog) on the hills (which are not really that steep or long) before my legs are uncomfortably in pain and fatigued. Sometimes I make the hill and sometimes I get off and rest.

I've been lurking in other forums on hill climbing techniques. Some say on short grades, many just stand up and pedal probably w/o shifting down very much. On longer grades some alternate standing and spinning. And then some just spin. I would think one would have to upshift before standing and down shift before sitting and spinning w/o losing momentum. I guess the accomplished racers and climbers do a lot of standing when climbing and sprinting ala Lance Armstrong. I just want to enjoy recreational road biking w/o competing with anyone.

Incidentally, rather than down shifting a lot when pulling up to a traffic light. I just stop w/o down shifting and then stand for a short while to start off when the light changes to get up to speed as soon as possible.

I do slow down when it feels too difficult and stop when there is pain.

Sinchi

stonooka

Hi All!

I have an REI about a 10 minute drive from my house. I just went out and purchased a Cateye Astrale 8.

Anybody interested in a computer w/o cadence cheap?

Sinch

stapfam

A computer with cadence measurement is ok, but I have never used one. Cadence is counted for me up against a stop watch function on the computer. Other problem with cadence computers is they cost more.

berts

congrats on your new computer. i hope you get some serious use out of it, i have mine for about a year and it served me very well - actually still does. installation is fairly easy and the advantage of this model is that the velocity sensor is on the back wheel, enabling measurement while on an indoor trainer. I usually train with the rpm on the major display and the speed on the minor lower corner since rpm is more important to me.

DnvrFox

I don't use a "cadence computer" - I just count my strokes for a minute, or 30 sec and multiply by two or 15 seconds and multiply by four. I can now pretty much tell my cadence by "feel", and generally run about 90, but can get up to 140 for periods of time.

It took me several years to feel natural about a higher cadence, but now it feels extremely awkward at a lower cadence.

I would suggest riding, riding and riding some more at a faster and faster cadence.

I always downshift before coming to a stop at a light or whatever. It fits my "cadence" paradigm, and there have been a couple of times when in a sort of emergency situation, I suddenly and unexpectedly had to get moving as quickly as possible. Also, when crossing a busy street with a short traffic light I need the "pickup" and faster acceleration.

IMHO, quads and lunges, etc., will not be too helpful, if at all, with cadence. They emphasize slow leg motion, while you want fast leg motion. Not that I am against them - I do them, but not for my cadence. A stationary bicycle (if you can stand to use one) would be more helpful. I use our gym's stationary in the winter months, and sometimes get a cadence of 150+ and keep it going for intervals.

As to the Heart Rate Monitor, please be advised that the traditional max heart rate formula of 220-age is only a very gross calculation, and yours may vary by up to 20 beats per minute either side of that figure.

lesliegee

During my first couple years back cycling, I did all of the above suggestions, plus I think what helped me the most was to find seasoned cyclers to ride with. -- and pay attention to their cycling techniques. It helped me to learn to spin - rather than just push down on the pedals. (concentrate on a circular motion, especially going uphill it helps to use all of the legs muscles) It also helped me pay attention to cadence. I would try to get in a gear so that my cadence was similar to theirs. It helped remind me to get out of the saddle, and spin uphill instead of keeping it in too big of a gear, and trying to grind my way uphill. It also showed me that even the really good riders have different techniques, and you need to find what works for you.

Al1943

Good choice. I've been riding with Astrales (pre 8 version) for 10 years, reliable and cost effective. I have 5 now. Generally the only problems will be dirty or corroded contacts between the unit and the base plate. If you ride in rain put a baggy over it to keep the contacts dry.

Al

Terex

Find a hill. Do hill repeats at least once a week. Ride up 5 min, ride down, recover, repeat several times. Keep doing that. You should be destroying hills in about 6 months. Good luck.

stonooka

Hi Denver Fox and others!

Yeah I know... I figured I could get my cadence by knowing my speed and gear ratios. But the mental arithmetic while cycling and watching traffic is like using a cell phone while driving. It's somewhat distracting. Although the cadence feature is $20.00 more than my bare bones computer, it will be worth it if I learn how to spin effectively. Counting strokes for 15 seconds sounds pretty easy. Also it will be a hassle to remove the computer whenever I park and lock the bike, but if it helps improve my performance it will have been worth it.

Yes, the max HR formula is a broad guess but it's probably on the safe side for me. I had a real medical stress test about 15 years ago as part of an overall physical exam. I will compare the results vs the age formula at that age, although the numerical results are no longer valid.

There are several small hills in my area that I can work on and then there is the big 2000 ft elevation gain in 3 miles distance that I wake up and look at every day which I never expect to conquer.

Sinchi

stapfam

Yes, the max HR formula is a broad guess but it's probably on the safe side for me. I had a real medical stress test about 15 years ago as part of an overall physical exam. I will compare the results vs the age formula at that age, although the numerical results are no longer valid.


The 220-age formula may not be correct for everyone, but for the last 12 years it have given me a spot on indication to me and for me is correct. Funnilly enough it is also correct for my 17year younger pilot on the Tandem


There are several small hills in my area that I can work on and then there is the big 2000 ft elevation gain in 3 miles distance that I wake up and look at every day which I never expect to conquer.

WOW. That is some hill, and not one I would like to meet unexpectedly, But just imagine the pride on conquering that one.

fmw

You're way ahead of me. When I started I ran out of breath way, way before my legs felt anything. Now I have sore legs every time I get on a bike but I sure go faster than I did at the beginning. The advice about doing repeated hill climbs is good. As you do this exercise, go about half way up the hill and then try to accelerate, even if just a little, for the last half. You'll be surprised how your hill climbing improves. I remember some hills around here that I could climb at only about 9-10 MPH a few years ago and now I do them routinely and easily at 15 mph. I haven't gotten any younger but I've gotten fitter. You might also head for that big hill and climb as much of it as you feel comfortable handling and then do a u-turn and head back down. Then go back again another day. Try to go a little higher each time. At some point you'll conquer the hill.

HiYoSilver

Actually fairly easy:

1. use cadence cyclometer
2. ride at least 5 miles at a time
3. don't use lack of wind as a guage of training
4. work at shifting gears often so you're running about the same cadence, +/- 10.
5. ride you base line cadence for at least 5 rides so you know it is a true baseline
6. try to increase your cadence by 5-10 rpm's. You probably won't hold it. Go up to it as long as you can, drop back, recover, repeat, repeat.
7. It'll probably take about 15-20 rides at new cadence to feel right. You may also find you are breathing harder as higher cadences require more VO capacity.
8. repeat until reach desired target cadence.

Using above I've raised my cadence by about 15, I only have 15 more to go.

stonooka

Hey gang!

Went out today with my new cadence meter and did a repeat of the little grade or hill that I bonked and ran out of gears a couple of days agp. On the flats and slight rises and falls I kept to the middle chain ring and stayed at 80 rpm +/- 10. It was somewhat stessful but I made the "hill" this time and did not run out of gears. I then rewarded myself with the 7 mile bike trail which was mostly a downhill grade or flat and looped the back streets to home. About 12 miles in all. I was'nt nearly as stressed out as doing this circuit previously, not paying attention to cadence. My average road speed is lower; 12-15 mph vs 15-20 previously and fewer rest stops.

The jury was right. I'll keep at it and hope to reach 90 rpm this season and my average road speed should go back to 15 mph. Another good target for this season is to go for a century: San Jose to Pinnacles State Park and back, if I can find a good route from San Jose to Gilroy that gets around the freeways.

I guess I'll sign off and maybe give you folks a status report in 2 or 3 weeks. Thanks for all the very good advice.

Sinchi

cyclezen

Correct aerobic cadence - a general msiconception is that cadence should be held at a certain level, regardless of terrain. That isn't so. Now Lance may be able to maintain his 100 cadence going up Alp D'huez or stroking along a flat lane, but most of us can't. If you are trying to maintain a cadence over 80 on a climb of more than a short 'bump' then I'm not surprised you're burning yourself out.
Climbing will require more 'pushing' of the pedals than a spin along flatter ground.
It is natural (and adviseable) for rpms to drop somewhat in climbing. If you can comfortably pedal 90 to 100 on flat sections, then expect comfortable cadences to be between mid 60s to low 80s, depending on grade/effort. Maintaining in the low 70s may be the most efficient range for that rider.
Even with a smaller gear at the rpms you might use on a flat road (90-100) puts you further into the region of diminishing returns for power used. Below a certain cadence (with a higher gear) the pedaling effort becomes too difficult because of the higher power needed to complete each rev.
Pedaling a climb at 90 rpm is as strenuous as doing it at 50 rpm.
Try finding a gear you can maintain at +-70 rpm without going into anerobic and you'll have found the most efficient gear for you. With this gear you'll be able to spin up to 90+ for brief periods without blowing up.

Having Lance as an example is both good and bad. Good, in that he shows the upper potential for pushing the ceiling on 'spin'. I;ve always believed that the better I could train the muscles to work efficiently at higher rpms the easier it is on them in the entire range used.
Bad - we imagine that WE, as everyday cyclists can 'dance' up at the cadences he does - it is possible, but not without the dedicated training he has gone thru.
Ullrich might be the other end - pushing a larger gear at slower rpms, and in between might be riders like Basso and other good climbers.
Yes- 'honking' over short rises/hills without much change in gearing, done almost completely standing on the pedals is often the preferred method for a racing ride.
Otherwise you'll find that all climbers will alternate some amount over the period of a longer climb, between sitting and standing. Why would we do that? To keep within the best rpm range that suits our climbing skills. In other words if 70 +- rpms is our best range, then we 'stand' until we hit some point around or a bit higher than that 'preferred' rpm. When we well exceed that rpm, we sit and pedal until our cadence starts dropping below our 'preferred' (more efficient, less power used combating both the pedal effort and the gravity pulling us down when standing). When we find ourselves again below 'preffered', we stand for more power and continue til we've exceeded 'preffered' and can again comfortably sit. So climbing becomes an alternating sitting and standing for keeping with the 'preferred' zone. Racers are always advised to stay within their 'capabilites' range when climbing, rather than respond to attacks that they know will cause them to blow up. Better to be down a minute at the summit than be down 10 minutes cause you blew up.
This, of course, is for performance cycling. Your average rider will select a comfortable gear for the grade and pedal it at a comfortable (for them) cadence and not vary much from that. There is no real time or speed parameter. They get there when they get there. For a racing cyclist speed and time are everything and all method revolves around that.
20+- rpm is a good starting point - if you ride comfortably at 85 rpm on the flat, then likely 65 rpm (at the right gear) will be comfortable on a steady climb.
The right gear? - is the one that letz you reach the summit (using your preferred rpm) and still feel as though you have a bit more to give.
I know - 2 moving targets... thatz why itz so difficult to get right. Start with an initial 'preferred' rpm, say 70, and while climbing find the gear that letz you do that 70, not comfortably, but without losing power. Then fine tune the rpms based on how your legs feel at the top - much more to give, then try a bit higher rpm or higher gear. Feeling pasted? - then drop some gear or lower the rpm, whichever feels better.
Finally there is no hard & fast - some riders will do better at slower cadences while others are able to 'dance' on the pedals at 100+ rpm.

cruzMOKS

2000 feet in 3 miles is a steep hill. 12.6% slope. 12.6 feet drop in 100 feet.

What kind of mountain grades are used in races?

stonooka

Hi Cyclezen!

Thanks for the alternative approaches to hill climbing and allowing a relaxing of the normal cadence for hill climbing. I guess the key is to stay aerobic as much as possible. I have so much to learn and so little time as I am already over the age "hill" as a senior.

Sinchi

DnvrFox

"So little time"

What is this nonsense???

Are you 95 or something?

I'm 65 and figure I have about 30 more years of bicycling.

bernmart

Damn right! I'm 66, and my struggling toward fitness on the bike is a statement of faith, no matter how cynical a bastard I pretend to be. I'm going to take care of myself, live my life as vividly as I can, and check out when I must. I expect to run out of luck, not out of time, some day.