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So, did Floyd cheat?

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Old 07-27-06, 12:34 PM
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So, did Floyd cheat?

CNN has it that he failed a drug test, and a second test or second analysis (I wasn't quite clear) is needed to confirm whether or not he cheated.

What do you think? Did he?
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Old 07-27-06, 12:55 PM
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John Eustace is quoted saying that no rider has ever lost a case involving testosterone levels. I have no idea why, or if that means that they weren't guilty, or just couldn't be "prosecuted" effectively. In any case, this really makes me sad. Floyd seemed like a real hero.

And, what if he either passes the B test, or is otherwise exonerated? Is his reputation ruined forever?
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Old 07-27-06, 12:58 PM
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I read some comments in the Road forum on the issue, and to be honest, I don't know what to think.

Some there say (but we don't know credentials) that if Floyd did do something steroidal that it would take at least 3 days to make a difference, so if he did it, then he succeeded on his own, but will be dethroned anyway.

I really hope that he didn't do it. I know his parents will be devastated if he did, along with some of the rest of us.

Until proven, I am trying to remain confident that he did stage 17 without enhancement, but I do harbor a fear that nobody in the tour is completely clean, and that Floyd's real failing is getting caught... I do hope my fears are unfounded.

Another poster in the road forum said that extreme exertion can raise testosterone levels, and if so, I think that his effort on that stage would have definitely been enough for that to be a factor... but again, I just don't know how true that is.
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Old 07-27-06, 01:08 PM
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The testesterone test is, according to a friend who used to do testing at AAU levels, flawed in many ways. Numerous false positives, and unexplainable - non-doping related - high levels reported. Still, it is possibly an 'indication' of something nefarious.
Unfortunately, the UCI is run by Napoleanic law and Floyd will be considered guilty until proven innocent.

Personally - I BELIEVE IN FLOYD.
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Old 07-27-06, 01:28 PM
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Me too!
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Old 07-27-06, 01:34 PM
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Testosterone test is one of the more flawed ones, according to many sources.
And there is the B sample...
Testosterone levels do vary and they use a general std level that not suitable for everyone.
my guess is that they'll (or should) also compare to results from Floyd from other days' testing - I'm sure they have samples from all of his high finish days.

I'm a real believer in 'acorn doesn't fall far from the tree'. Floyd may be many things, but he is also a mennonite by upbringing - shows the character one would expect from that culture.
I'd be hard pressed to believe he could live with himself if he KNOWINGLY did something that was obviously banned as 'not fair play'. It would take one huge reversal of upbringing and character to become the sociopath that would KNOWINGLY 'cheat', regardless of what was at stake.

Do they all get daily Fluid IVs to aid recovery? I think its safe to assume that is one common denominator across all Pro cycling teams. AS to whats in them, I'm sure 99% of the riders have no idea what is going into their system...

But the media has JUDGED...

and Phonak has stabbed him in the back - Phonak organization deserves a quick flush down the cycling toilet regardless of the outcome with Floyd!
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Old 07-27-06, 01:51 PM
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well-stated, Cyclezen

given that the testosterone tests are flawed in their readings & that bringing down ANY non-French winner or maybe non-European winner would make some folks' day, I'll continue to believe Landis did it the old-fashioned way: "He who trains the longest & the hardest, wins."
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Old 07-27-06, 02:45 PM
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Apparently Floyd is allowed to take Cortizon shots for his hip pain. It is possible that he got some cocktail mixed up without ever knowing it.
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Old 07-27-06, 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted by Big Paulie
And, what if he either passes the B test, or is otherwise exonerated? Is his reputation ruined forever?
I wonder if it won't be the same as it has been with Armstrong through the last few years? Never proven that he doped, but always suspected of it. Shame really. I was really happy for Floyd, and I hope he's proven innocent beyond a shadow of a doubt.

Steve
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Old 07-27-06, 02:55 PM
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As a die-hard "Tyler is Innocent" fan for whom the walls of empirical/common sense evidence closed in .......I also want very much to believe in Floyd. As for testosterone levels, well-- it undoubtedly took some real balls to go off the front and up the climbs as he did in Stage 17--especially after the nerve shaking day before.

As for Dick Pound and the French, they have very questionable credibility when involved with Americans and bike racing and drug testing-- witness Lance's unthawed sample. A bas les frogues!
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Old 07-27-06, 03:20 PM
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Ain't speculation marvelous?
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Old 07-27-06, 03:33 PM
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Landis' testosterone level was actually low. His testosterone/epitestosterone ratio was what was high. From what I have gleaned through Google and interviews, normal ratios are 1:1 to 2:1 but some people have ratios that are up around 6:1 or 8:1. The UCI and WADA lowered their accepted ceiling from 6:1 to 4:1. Landis will have to show what his average ratio is from all the tests I am sure he has taken.

An interesting interview with a Dr. at WADA stated that he found it odd that this was the findings of the test since the additional testosterone on the day of the race would not have a great affect on the performance of the athelete. That is not how testosterone injections are used. If he was going to cheat, he would have used blood doping.

Sadly, it is up to Floyd to redeem himself. I doubt he will get much help.
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Old 07-27-06, 03:36 PM
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As has been shown recently- Drugs are in Cycling (And most other sports) and rates of detection are improving. Unfortunately I feel that You only have to mention drugs and cycling and name a rider in the same sentence and that rider has a big cloud sitting over him for the rest of his life. Testosterone is a natural product. Amounts can vary in various people at various times. I have no idea if it is a performance enhancing drug, and I do not know what level is permitted in samples.

Problem now is- even if it can be proved by most that he has not taken a performance enhancer- Certain people will not let it rest and keep that cloud on the boil. I hope that Floyd and his doctor and his team are in the clear, but from now on- He will be the champion that cheated. Just like Lance.

Just read that and what I mean is that someone in authority has said that Lance Cheated- so He did. Doesn't matter that It has never been proved. (and probably did not happen)
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Old 07-27-06, 03:46 PM
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I like to think he didn't cheat, so I will reserve judgement till he is proven quilty or innocent. If he is quilty he should never be allowed to compete again
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Old 07-27-06, 03:53 PM
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I may be wrong, but the intravenous cocktail the riders get after a day's ride is called a "ringer". At least that's what the Pharmacist calls it. Its basically, dextrose, water, potassium, sodium, or what we call electrolytes. Since they ride the very next day, they need electrolyte replacement pronto and taking it orally may not be fast enough.
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Old 07-27-06, 04:36 PM
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Every competition has its own "culture". For example, to cheat in Bridge is absolutely forbidden, but to cheat in Euchre (and get away with it) is not only "OK", but thought of as "well played". In that vein pro bike racing ain't golf. Golf is one of those sports where you are on your "honor" and you are never allowed to cheat, but the culture of pro cycling is that you take every edge that you think you can get away with. I believe that once Lee Trevino found one of his children's toy clubs in his bag after a round and turned himself in for carrying too many clubs. Nobody would have known, but he understood the "code" that golfers play by. (I think the penalty is 2 stokes per hole. Any golfers out there that can confirm the penalty for carrying too many clubs?) That is not the way pro bike racing is.

Personally I think that they all "cheat" in the sense that they use forbidden substances, but they know exactly how far they can use them before they trigger a positive test. Call me a cynic if you want, but I do have my sources about what goes on at the higher levels. What I don't understand is what came back as a positive for Landis. Testosterone is an agent that is useful in recovery. The typical way that a rider gets dosed is though a patch because injection "spikes" the system and if you get tested at the wrong time you will be VERY postive and I have to believe that every rider knows exactly how long to wear the patch. Also it certainly isn't a PED of choice for making an epic ride either.

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Old 07-27-06, 05:04 PM
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This is from an article that just came up on Yahoo news...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060727/...loyd_landis_21

Testosterone can build muscle and improve recovery time when used over a period of several weeks, said Dr. Gary Wadler, a member of the World Anti-Doping Agency and a spokesman for the American College of Sports Medicine. But if Landis had been a user, his earlier urine tests during the tour would have been affected, he said.

"So something's missing here," Wadler said. "It just doesn't add up."
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Old 07-27-06, 05:06 PM
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Absolutely Floyd cheated. You can't tell me that his speech pattern and mannerisms were not indicative of a physical condition!....Oh, wait...I thought you were talking about Floyd the Barber....
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Old 07-27-06, 05:32 PM
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Here's what Landis says about it:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/othe...ng/5222786.stm
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Old 07-27-06, 05:43 PM
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Originally Posted by dauphin
Absolutely Floyd cheated. You can't tell me that his speech pattern and mannerisms were not indicative of a physical condition!....Oh, wait...I thought you were talking about Floyd the Barber....
Sheesh! Floyd the Barber was fictional character from a fictional town.
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Old 07-27-06, 05:52 PM
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Originally Posted by ****** Diego
Sheesh! Floyd the Barber was fictional character from a fictional town.
You'd say that to a man with scissors in his hand?
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Old 07-27-06, 06:09 PM
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I'd like to believe that Floyd is innocent... however, if he is stripped of his title, the guy who will be most pissed off is Andreas Kloden... He has always said they should never have let Pereiro go for that 30 minute victory... if that break hadn't been allowed to go as long (say only 25 minutes), Kloden and T-Mobile would have 'won' the Tour...
I guess what this means is we can speculate forever and a day, but it won't change anything.

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Old 07-27-06, 06:23 PM
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Originally Posted by ****** Diego
Sheesh! Floyd the Barber was fictional character from a fictional town.
You're just jealous cuz you couldn't make that citizen's arrest stick against Barney.
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Old 07-27-06, 06:32 PM
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Originally Posted by Digital Gee
CNN has it that he failed a drug test, and a second test or second analysis (I wasn't quite clear) is needed to confirm whether or not he cheated.

What do you think? Did he?
I certainly hope that he did Not. If he didn't, I hope that he can prove that he did not. None the less, his victory will forever be clouded even if he is able to prove that he didn't.
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Old 07-27-06, 06:36 PM
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According to one of Dr. Arnie Baker's proteges here in San Diego, Floyd Landis has been taking thyroid hormore orally to combat hypothyroidism, and this could have a big impact on his serum testosterone / epitestosterone ratio. I am withholding judgment for now.
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