NOS88

I'm wondering if we're all...

centexwoody 

+ 1 Right arm!

But all of us DO appreciate the original posting asking a question that we can weigh in on...

gear

I love my Ti road bike but I doubt I'd love it much less if it were any other material. I had the frame made custom for me and it fits me Perfectly. That is why I love the bike, not the material, the fit. The fit, the fit, the fit.

bkaapcke

The correct question is "Are you worth the extra money? It's not; is the bike worth the extra dough. Think about it, there is a big difference.

George

Here's a good read. Search
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I'm very fond of steel bikes. Even with all of the newer and more exotic materials available, there is just something comforting, even romantic, about riding a good steel framed bike.

What's wrong with aluminum?

Yes, I know that Klein and Cannondale have done wonders with aluminum. They're no longer as noodly and life draining as they were 15 years ago. Aluminum frames are certainly very light, and aluminum is pretty cheap. But, as light as those monster-tubed bikes are, they tend to be jittery and somewhat relentless. And, have you ever seen one after a crash? They crush about as easily as an aluminum can. And, you can never seem to tell if they are getting fatigued, ready to break, or if they are getting pitted. Sure aluminum doesn't rust, but it sure does oxidize, and the effects aren't as visible.

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But, they're certainly there.
Carbon Fiber

Then there is carbon fiber. I guess nobody been stabbed by a shattered carbon fork for a few years. And, the glue used these days is better than it used to be. So, at least I can say that they seem to be safer these days, at least for riding on the road. I'd still be scared to take it one on technical singletrack. I just can't help but wonder what would happen if I was in the middle of nowhere when I slammed up against a tree or a rock. The worst thing that I'd be able to do to a steel bike is bend it, but I'd probably still make it home. But, if the frame splintered into little pieces, well, I'd be up the proverbial creek. But, mostly, carbon fiber looks funny. The bikes tend to be glued together tubes or bizarre monocoque frames with aerodynamic shapes. I just want to ride a bike that looks like a bike. I guess I'm just old-fashioned.

Titanium

Now that the 3Al/2.5V titanium alloy is mostly used, frame builders can actually put together some decent bikes. I remember the earlier bikes with straight gauged tubes of the super stiff 6Al/4V alloy. Sure it was cool to have a bike that could withstand being run over repeatedly by a truck, but what good does that do in real life? A bike isn't going to feel right if you can't do much with the shape of the tubes - within reason of course. These days, builders are customizing tubing, and the bikes are starting to ride better. Of course, the sad thing is that these nice titanium bikes need fiber forks to have a smooth ride. Kinda makes you wonder. But, still, titanium has a lot of promise in my opinion, and maybe someday I'll write about why I love titanium. If only it wasn't so darned expensive! And why is it that somebody can't paint it (or even anodize it) a decent color?

Steel

Then there's the tried and true steel. If it was good enough for Eddy Merckx, then it ought to be good enough for me. Nothing has the same feel to it as steel. It makes me feel more in touch with the bike and the road. Framebuilders have used steel for decades and they know what they're doing. They've had years to adjust the geometry of their frames to get just the feel they want. Steel is just very comfortable if done right, and with the availability of such a wide variety of tubing, doing it right is easier with steel. And, you're not necessarily going to get a heavier bike, either. Frames made out of Reynolds 853 tubing as well as other new alloys are around 4 lbs. Yes that's more than aluminum, but what is going to have the ride you want? Some freaky fat-tubed thing or a gorgeous steel bike? You know the answer to that!

The only down side for steel, as far as I'm concerned, is rust. I've always been a heavy sweater, and at the end of a long, hot ride, and can literally scrape salt crystals off from under my top tube. Even cleaning my bikes off after they get sweaty and nasty, they still mange to rust. But, you've still got to figure, if you're going out and buying fancy bikes to ride, you probably don't want to keep them forever. The technology changes rapidly in the bicycling world. That cool bike you bought five or six years ago is functional, but now it's not so high tech. So, even if it's made of indestructible materials, it's still obsolete by today's standard. In other words, don't let a little rust stop you from buying steel.

And think about the last time you went to a race or club ride and saw somebody else's bike and thought to yourself, "That's a handsome bike." What was it made out of? I don't know about you, but to see a well made steel road bike with Campagnolo components and a normal paint job and maybe some copper rivets on the saddle, just makes me all weak in the knees. And, sure, a frame without a down tube looks cool, and so does shiny, polished titanium, but it doesn't have the romance of a steel classic. You do have to look down at your bike for hours and hours. And, when you look down and see a sexy, steel frame, and feel it under your body, responding to your every move, it just makes your ride a real pleasure.

Tom Bombadil

To clarify, the test results I posted were lab tests. However the other two tests that I have read about were real road/riding tests. The CF frames were dramatically outperforming steel and aluminum in those tests. I mentioned the one where a CF frame had 130,000 miles on it and was still going strong.

People who are avoiding trails because they have a CF may just be practicing too much risk avoidance.

Since I'm from the Madison, WI area, I have spoken to people who work at Trek about this. Trek builds their carbon frames here. They have an extremely high level of confidence in those frames. I was told that their tests, both lab and road, have shown that their typical carbon frame has 2X-3X the expected lifespan of a steel frame. Also that the number of returns and problems they have to deal with from purchasers of the CFs is extremely low. Vs their own aluminum frames, the difference is much closer and the decision should be based on other factors, such as performance.

However I can well understand the concerns about dropping big bucks and then fracturing the frame in a crash within a few weeks or months. Trek told me that the incident rate of this happening is far lower than it is typically perceived to be in biking forums. That some of the concerns stem from problems experienced with early CFs and the stories live on for many years.

That said, you do have to worry about sudden failure. To the point that companies like Trek post check-lists for caring for the frames:
https://www.trekbike.co.uk/carbon_car...Care_Flyer.pdf

Given that most of us do not ride enough to worry about wearing out a steel frame after 40,000-50,000 miles or an aluminum frame after 100,000 miles, I suspect there are much more significants factors to take into consideration before we buy.

But I'm only passing along what I have read and been told. I haven't seen anything yet that conclusively proves the failure rates.

Big Paulie

All your points are well taken, Tom.

Tom Bombadil

I do find it interesting to read opinions on what types of frames feel best to the rider. I haven't ridden enough to have developed my senses for this. Bike companies drop a lot of funds into materials R&D, not only for safety & weight, but for shock absorption, materials flex, how different materials perform in different frame designs, and much more. They redesign bikes after getting user feedback about bikes being too stiff, too wobbly, too noodly, etc.

So there is obviously something to bikes feeling and riding different that goes beyond the geometry factors.

The OP asked about CF vs AL. Beyond all of the test results, weight, cost, and safety issues, I'm sure there are personal factors at play. One might love the high tech aspect of carbon, another the value and durability of aluminum, while the next person loves the feel of steel under them. Or they have a particular preference because they are going to beat the hell out of the frame. I enjoy reading perspectives from people who hold passionate views on this subject.

CrossChain

+1. But, valuing a bike, for most of us, goes beyond its being just an efficiency governed work-out tool. It becomes energized and imbued with all those experiences and feelings: exhaustion, elation, achievement, failure, near-miss with the cement truck, the part you searched for endlessly, etc. There's a very important Affective dimension to owning, riding, maintaining a bike. Not to mention a personal Aesthetic dimension. Sometimes, I, too, just stare at my bike with admiring affection. (Do bowlers stare at their balls?)

Some people like the toothpaste-smooth lines of carbon, others prefere the sharp, traditional lines of steel. Whatever you like, it goes beyond the practical numbers of how many fatigue cycles it can withstand. So, there's not just a Science to bike material preference, but also an Art. Next time you see someone in the grocery store who seems especially bonded to their aging, lumpy, and flatulant partner-- it's the same thing. Superiority is in the eye of the beholder (or make that "rider") for many reasons besides those which are quantifiable.

The "argument" over materials is moot if trying to decide which is, generally speaking, "best".

terry b

I have a carbon bike that will rattle your teeth out and I have an aluminum frame that rides smooth as silk. There are no absolute answers when it comes to materials - it depends on how they're used and what the intent of the designer/builder was when they set out to develop the frame.

A CF bike designed and spec'd to make a professional rider as fast a possible is not going to feel comfortable to a weekend warrior riding the MUT. In the same way as a well-designed and executed aluminum frame done with a recreational rider in mind is not going to beat you to death.

Ride them both on some crappy pavement and you'll get your answer. It might be worth $500 to you and it might not.

robb webb

Thank you all for your wisdom concerning aluminum vs Cf. I am going to keep test riding and buy the bike the feels the best overall. I especially liked the comment about whether I am worth the extra money, not the bike. I won't ask my wife her opinion on that one, as some things she just doesn't understand.

Digital Gee

Sometimes you are just so deep!

pastorbobnlnh 

"Inspiring" is a better description. I find myself doing the same with my restored Paramount. I understand! I understand!

Tom Bombadil

That is a very pretty bike. And I'm not one to notice the lines of a bike very readily.

oilman_15106

I don't know about the OP's plans but I plan on still riding when I'm 80.

DnvrFox

and I plan on riding when I am 97!

lighthorse@eart

Of my rides, the carbon bike is by far the most comfortable to ride and it is easier to make it go faster if that is your thing. You should look at Performance, they have their bikes on sale right now. I bought my Scattante CFR with Ultegra for $1250 by waiting for the sales and coupons to line up. No need to pay a premium for any bike.
The way I rate my bikes for comfort and speed are:
1. Scattante CFR
2. LeMond Buenos Aries (Steel Frame w/carbon fork)
3. Trek 7500 (All aluminum)
4. Burley (All Steel) and heavy but built to carry stuff

spare_wheel

sorry for resurrecting this old post.

martianone

Should old posts be allowed to RIP? This one probably has some life in it.
Two weekends ago in the bike shop for some new handlebar tape. My partner was seriously rubbernecking a bike - I being a good sport said, why don't you try it. Well two or three bikes, a fit session and some test rides - she was stuck on a new bike & four hours later we are on the way home with a new CF road bike [her old road bike was Al]. The fit and ride quality for her is great -she is very happy with her new bike. So my answer to the original OP's question is - yes. CF = happy partner = good investment.

wobblyoldgeezer

Interesting older thread, and I'm glad to read the postings which I missed when they were newer

'carbon worth more than alum? ' was the original question, and many folk added their interpretations and preferences.

My take - I have a new fancy bike with steel in the middle and carbon at each end. I have a lovely steel tourer that I've loved for 22 years. I have an 18 year old steel tandem.

When I was faster and younger my race bikes were steel. I ride 'cos it makes me feel just like I was then.

Is this in any way relevent?

tony2v

Here's a titanium builder that paints their frames.(https://www.baumcycles.com/paint-personalisation)
This is my N+1 https://abovecategorycycling.com/sho...um-cubano.html.

HiYoSilver

Only riden three types of frames: alum, titanium and CF. The best ride is Ti, but it is horribly expensive and just couldn't afford it. Ok for a one time rental, but not to buy. It was 2 to 3 thousand more and very limited in shaping abilities.

CF is either great or a bunch of junk. It depends on the frame and whether it fits you. My first borrowed CF ride was a twitchy road bike that I couldn't wait to get off before I play kiss the sharp rocks with my face. Now my "new" CF is just wonderful, smooth ride and just goes and goes and goes.

Al is good for starting and it's a bang it around bike frame. No worries, but can't hang on it too long as it really punishes this old body.

bruce19

I've had TSX steel, TI and AL w/CF front and rear. I've never ridden full CF. So, far my current Masi AL frame w/CF fork and rear is my favorite. A nice combination of stiffness, light weight and comfort. It may depend on the rider's weight to some extent. I'm 185 lbs. Just a quick comparo.

crazyb

Tires have a lot more to do with ride quality than frame material ever did.

crazyb

Unless you have exactly the same wheelset, tires, fork, geometry, when you compare frame material, you have no comparison.