NOS88

PLEASE... note: I'm not trying to start a war over the best frame material. Rather, I'm trying to gain some insight into the clarity of my own thinking right now from folks who have been around long enough to know that people are capable of crooked thinking and self-deception.... 2 traits that I'll probably carry to my grave.

As some of you know, I've gone through a few carbon frames in the last 18 months. I currently (as my main ride) have a Specialized S-Works Roubaix. It rides like a dream. However, I never quite fully enjoy the rides, because I'm frequently wondering if the frame is OK. (Believe me... have a rear chainstay snap in two while your curising along, and you get a bit nervous about repeats of the event.) Additionally, I was disturbed by Cheesflavor's report that his CF frame was history due to a crack in the seat tube.

So, I'm thinking maybe I should shift to a titanium frame, but have reservations. I've heard and read that there can be real problems with alignment and some can be pretty flexible (not something a 198 lb. person wants). I'm also a man of moderate means, and can't afford to go out and buy lots of expensive toys on a whim. So, shifting my main ride to a titanium ride would be a major decision.

I know there may be those who would suggest steel as an option, and I'm considering this too. However, I can't see owning another steel bike (have one I like quite a lot) unless it was stiffer (yet comfortable) than what I have and it had great lug work. (I'm a sucker for art and functionality... intricate lugs get my juices flowing). But I know little about the new steel and find it hard to seperate the hype from what is real.

Bottom line in my current thinking is: If I could get either a titanium or steel bike that rides like my Specialized S-Works Roubaix, I'd work to make the necessary plans to make the switch. But, I'm just not confident. I've thought about buying a titanium frame on e-bay, but what if it's got a frame that is not straight? Would I be able to switch over my current derailleurs, brakes, etc.? If I went with steel, have the improvements been enough to keep me happy?

I'm really just going around and around in circles on this one, and when I talk with any LBS person I know, they all push CF (even one that's listed as a Waterford dealer). HELP.... I'd appreciate any thoughts that might help me break this endless cycle of doubt.

zonatandem

Quit your worrying and go ride!
Any frame material will eventually deteriorate and/or fail.
Have broken 2 steel frames and one steel fork(tandems). Does that mean I no longer trust steel?
Have had harmonic vibration on several singles and one tandem . . . steel, alu, ti and c/f.
Have ridden over 1/4 million miles on bikes.
Got rid of a Merlin (ti) after a bad crash (harmonics at 38 mph descending a twisty beautifully paved canyon road) and replaced it with a c/f single. Found the c/f to be more forgiving on rough roads and handles like a dream.
About lugs: have a beautiful custom c/f tandem with c/f lugs with window cutouts . . . so steel is not the only lugged material for frames.

Velo Dog

I have the same concerns you do about CF frames, but it's pure prejudice. I've never owned one (but I do have an engineer neighbor who's worked with it a lot, and I've seen some of his demonstrations of "catastrophic failure" in aircraft. The stresses there are much greater than in a bike, but it sticks in my mind anyway).
At heart, I'm a steel fan, and my current (and probably last) rides are a Rivendell Atlantis (bought the frame and fork and built it up) and a Riv Rambouillet (got a good deal on it used, with 105 components). You can get either one these days for $1450 frame and fork, about $2300 ready to ride, and I'd recommend either. Check 'em out at www.rivbike.com

Tom Bombadil

From Sheldon Brown's site, a test report on frames. In this test, the CF frames held up better than any other type of frame, with aluminum being 2nd best.

They subjected each frame to up to 200,000 stress cycles. So the max score is 200,000.

Grouped by type:

Carbon:
Trek - 200,000

Carbon/Aluminum Lugged:
Time Helix - 181,966

Aluminum wielded:
Cannondale - 200,000
Principia - 200,000
Klein - 131,907
Stevens - 85,032

Steel Lugged:
Barellia - 119,316
De Rosa - 56,690

Titanium Welded:
Schmolke - 160,356
Merlin - 100,595

Steel Welded:
Nishiki - 78,206
Fondriest - 77,171

https://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/E...tigue_test.htm

I had a chance to chat with a Trek frame engineer (they live right here in Dane Co, Wisconsin) and he told me that it is difficult to even measure the life cycle of their current CF frames. They subject them to tests equivalent to 30 years of hard usage and they are still in perfect shape.

But then there is that cracked seat tube!

RockyMtnMerlin

Please also note that the test Tom B refers to was done in 1997. Moreover, don't stop reading after the results section. Go down to the Interpretations section and note the testers stated limitations of their own test. Finally I'll bet that in the intervening 10 years that most quality frames can do more "cycles" than they did back then due to improved fabrication techniques (et al).

stapfam

Personally I would not use CF on a bike but I am predujiced against it. (Having been a fibreglass laminator and seen how it can fail). I know the modern materials are better but it is my choice.

Titanium frames ride Beautifully, and are strong. Problem as you say is the build of them and the only quality manufacturer I can think of is litespeed. They are not cheap but I think you can guarranty that their frames are true and built properly.

Steel is fantastic. Long life- good ride and the only drawback being weight. Although I did go custom build once and got a 3.1lbs MTB frame and that is light for such a strong frame.

So why do I ride Aluminium. According to all the Reports- it gives a harsh ride and is not as light as it should be. The reason I ride it is because it works. That rigidity in the frame means that there is no frame flex- All the pedal power is transmitted to the back wheel, and if It gets harsh- I can have a rest by getting out of the saddle. Just face it- If it was that harsh- it would be unridable and as to weight, The Aluminium frames are lighter than steel.


You may have had a steel frame in the past- but Other than sharing your concerns on CF- I would be hard put to say that one particular material was better than the others if cost/ performance/ weight were to come into it. If you were to ask for my Favourite Manufacturer though- Then you start a different ball game Bianchi- De rosa- Merlin- Litespeed------- The choice on Quality frame manufacturers is too vast to offer an opinion. (And I do mean quality frame manufacturers)

jppe

I've only been riding 6 years and 4-5 of those have been on Carbon so I'm probably not much help. However, my best cycling buddy and I put in the same number of miles the last few years, rode the same roads, etc. We probably didn't hit the same bumps so it's not a very good scientific experiment but here is my closest experience. My CR frames are trucking right along. However, his titanium frame cracked and was sent back for repair. Repair job was beautiful but it now appears there is an alignment issue with the frame and the shifting is suffering. The frame has been back at the manuf for a while and they're trying to get it sorted out. Not sure if there is a good fix.

Point is I'm not sure there is a perfect material and each has it's advantages. Pick your poison!!

Blackberry

I can understand why you'd be snakebit about frame materials, but having ridden extensively on steel, aluminum and ti (I've never owned CF, but I wouldn't hesitate to consider it if I was looking for another bike), I'm coming around to the school of thought that says: It's not the frame material but what the builder does with it. For what it's worth, if I had to clear out my stable of seven bikes and go with just one it would probably be a 1983 lugged steel Trek. It seems to be built along many of the same design principles as the Riv Rambouillet.

The good news is we really are living in the golden age of frame materials. In some ways we have too many choices, but if you want steel, there certainly are lots of good options.

madli

If you have a chance check a post on a thread at the Singlespeed Forum (STEEL VS CARBON/Alum by Ken Cox). Offers a different (though enlightening to me) perspective on the variety and uses for different frame materials.

John E

With good craftsmanship and design, I think any of the materials listed can serve well, but I wonder how many aluminum or carbon frames will last 47 years and counting.

gear

I weigh 220 lbs and have been riding a Seven Ti frame for the past seven years. The frame is flexable in the way I want it to be and stiff in the way I want it to be, its this way because of all the "riding style" questions I was asked durring the ordering process. The fit is impossible to describe to anyone who hasn't had a frame made spacifically for them; you might think you've experianced a perfect fit because you got the seat at just the right height or you have a great stem fit but believe me a custom fitting frame is bike nirvana. I love this bike.

pastorbobnlnh 

NOS88,

If you really want to cease any worry about frame fatigue, failure, damage, straightness, weight carring ability, etc., find yourself a 30-40 year old Schwinn Electro-Forged frame. Continental was top of the EF line. Here's the latest beut I'm restoring, a '62 (sorry it's not complete ). Just think how strong your legs will become hauling all that EF weight up and over your PA hills! If you ride EF all week and then jump on the CF for the group ride on Saturday, you will ride like a surface to surface missle. Your bike buddies will want to know your secret weapon. But don't let on. If you let the cat out of the bag they will snicker and think you're a bit wacked. BTW, you mentioned lugs, there's a few nice lugs on the bike in the background.

crazyb

I have two aluminum framed bikes that are near twenty years old, with no signs of failure at all. I guess we will see. Aluminum frames have been around since the 1890's so I guess some of the bugs have been worked out in that amount of time.

big john

In October I bought a Gunnar steel frame and have put about 2000 miles on it. It really works for the type of riding I do. I'm 210# and I go on some pretty bad roads, even took it on a little dirt. It handles wonderfully in turns and is always stable. It is also more forgiving than my Cannondale, although a little heavier. If you can accept steel without lugs, it is a good option at around $700 for the frame. There are other steel frames in this price range, as well.
I'm not a total steel advocate, however. I have broken 3 steel frames, including a lugged Trek 660. I would love to have a high-end ti or carbon frame in the stable.

BluesDawg

There are many ways to get to the desired end of having a great bike. Whatever makes you happy is a good way to go. There are many great bikes made from all kinds of material. Go for whichever one appeals to you.
I like steel bikes because I like steel bikes, not because other materials are inferior. I've had 2 aluminum mountain bikes (still have one) and they have both been top notch in my book. But when I dream about bikes, they are always lugged steel.

hoss10

I have no scientific data from what I'm about to write just years of riding and watching my sons race. First of all I'm a really big guy (was really strong, a Freestyle wrestler) and I tend to crush bike stuff. I have road a Cannondale Killer V Al. frame for 10 years for many, many, miles. When I purchsed the CDale, I had wanted a steel bike, all my old bikes had been steel and lasted for years, in fact having a frame fail was not something that we ever thought too much about. When I sat on a steel framed mountain bike (high end) I could flex the rear triangle sideways over an inch. (in fact I think the salesman peeded himself when he say this).

Why was this happening? One word bike WEIGHT. The weight of the frame had become a real easy way for people to compare bikes if it was light it was good. Aluminum frames could use large tubes cut down on the flex and still be light. Steel bike makers tried this with thin butted tubes and had some disasters. My oldest son at about 200 pounds at the time would crush his frames (steel) and the same place (top tube at the front butt). Lucky for him he got some of his frames for free. The trend now at least for Mountain bikes is away from super light and looking at stength. Steel can be strong it just can't be as light. So which is better?

Steel Traditional, proven, heavier, and available in many custom shops (my new bike is custom steel), can be repaired, (but would you), can rust (I have a few 30 year old frames with no rust)

Aluminum Stiff, lighter, you have to be more carefull with an Al. frames, my son has dented a few., not as easy to work with, and hard to repair.

Titanium, Seems to be the wonder material, (except the guy building my frame who is also Mechanical Engineer would not even consider a Ti frame for my weight, too flexible), will last for ever, (my brother who rides thousands of miles, ovalized the bottom bracket tube on his high Ti bike. don't ask me how).

Carbon Fibre Cool, sexy, light, the way all bikes will be made in the future according to many (same brother, broke two before he gave up and went to Titanium.)

Digital Gee

Maybe this is a dumb question. Is anyone still making brand new lugged steel frame road bikes, and if so, are they making them in the relaxed geometry that I like? And if so, are they priced to compete with AL bikes?

EDIT: I guess I already know Bianchi makes steel bikes, although I don't know if they're lugged.

BluesDawg

[QUOTE=Digital Gee]Maybe this is a dumb question. 1) Is anyone still making brand new lugged steel frame road bikes, and if so, 2) are they making them in the relaxed geometry that I like? 3) And if so, are they priced to compete with AL bikes? QUOTE]

1- yes
2- yes
3- no

But you can get an old one and fix it up pretty cheap.

Blackberry

Beautiful, the geometry you want--but not cheap. Here are a few to get you dreaming. I know there are others.

https://www.heronbicycles.com/index.html

https://www.rivbike.com/

https://www.vanillabicycles.com/ (big yum factor)

cyclintom

I've talked about this sort of testing before. Those test results are both informative and yet not. Because most frames will last almost forever under the nornal loads of cycling, they force them to fail by turning the loads up to sometimes bizarre levels.

Any frame material will fatigue given enough force.

But here's the problem - carbon fails because of invisible flaws in the layups whereas steel only fails the fatigue test if you turn the loads up above steel's quite high fatigue limit. You can never tell when a carbon frame will fail simply because although the fatigue limits on a well made frame are essentially infinite, these frames are being made progressively lighter and they're pushing the limits of the material to the point where the maximum STRENGTH limits are being reached when you hit a pothole or a high manhole cover. Failures of this sort aren't predictable by fatigue limit testing.

Titanium frames are fine, a good design will last as long as any other frame and they aren't any more flexible than a steel frame if you buy conservatively. My Eddy Merckx EX Pro (built by lightspeed) is strong enough to carry my 200 and some odd lbs of all up weight and it still weighs 3 lbs less than my Eddy Merckx Corsa and a lb lighter than the steel Basso.

I have a couple of carbon frames and I trust them because I've never gone for the lightest you could find. So I don't worry about my Look KG241 or my Colnago C40 and when someone tells me that their street ride weighs under 16 lbs I wence. Personally I value my face and teeth and so ride something that isn't likely to break at the worst possible time.

cyclintom

Bianchi steel frames today are semi-compact and look like C-R-A-P.

If you want a nice lugged steel frame you can generally go to a lot of custom framebuilders and get one for about what it costs for a good production steel frame.

https://www.waterfordbikes.com/site/designs/rs.php

Of course down there in San Diego you could simply drive over to CyclArt and see what they have in stock. And they can also point you towards a custom frame builder that they can recommend.

Road Fan

In addition to Waterford, there's Mercian cycles and Woodrup Cycles in England. In North America there are some extremely talented custom builders: Doug Fattic in Michigan, Richard Sachs, Ron Boi in the Chicago area, Jonny Cycles in Michigan, Rich Gangl and Mark Nobilette in Colorado, and many others, Marinoni Cycles in Toronto, and many others. If you are considerign the cost of a very high-end Specialized, Bianchi, or Trek, you're entering the same $$ territory as builders such as these. One custom builder in Italy, Mondonico, had several US retailers who would do custom fitting and ordering, then you take delivery from the retailer.

There's a lot of steel out there!

Road (and steel) Fan

CrossChain

To DG above wondering about steel bikes:

Part of the time I ride a Rivendell (well, a Riv knockoff Romulus which is, according to Grant, 90% of a custom Riv but less gorgeous except mine is a thing of beauty to me). All the steel sites above are well worth consideration. On the less expensive side, add Surley and Kogswell. Both build quality frames (often not lugged, but that's like loving the tradition and look of cuff links while yet knowing little buttons work as well. Purists might argue that. Their frames come in a variety of practical applications that would suit DG or any committed but non high-performance cyclist except a racer. Also, not as pricey as Waterford or Rivendell.....although Kogs, Surley, Heron, Romulus cantilever model and Rambouillets seem priced very reasonably.

The main thing is that the world of steel bikes is not just all about racers....above are good, versatile, go for years, comfortable, fun to ride, inviting to throw a leg over geometries that are great all-around bikes.

And, who knows, some day, in a land far away, DG may buy one. Maybe.


https://www.kogswell.com/index.html

https://www.surlybikes.com/

stapfam

Funny how certain names come to mind at times. I do not know either of these maunufacturers frames personally but neither are a well known name to me either. Just like the US frame manufacturers mean absolutely nothing to me either. One name that is very highly respected over here though is Roberts cycles. I know there are other good manufacturers around but I am just not into that market.

96 and I went to a very small manufacturer in the East End of London. Very small workshop and I had to take my current bike along for him to see. He built me a frame that was absolutely superb. Steel of course and anodised Silver. He warned me that although it would take all the punishment I could throw at it- It would start to "GO OFF" after about 3 years. This I could understand and 3 years later I got in touch with him again for a new frame. He had stopped making them as He had sold his design and material specs to Taiwan. He had retired on the proceeds and no longer made frames. He had to admit that although he did not want to sell the frame design and specs- He could see that His future was going to be limited with the number of cheap frames that were coming into the market- Not just cheap frames-Good cheap frames.

oilman_15106

I have 2 ideas for you to consider. Steel/carbon or Ti/Carbon frames? I have both of these combos and the ride is of both is great. Jamis Eclipes 853 steel with carbon rear end. Very comfortable on the long haul. Airbrone Manhattan Project Ti with carbon setstay. Both are light and as fast as my 50+ ability will make them go.

As to your concern about duarablity. Unless your doing cyclocross or something that punishes the frame, I would not worry. Yes you get the failure stories on the fourms but of the millions of bikes out there what can the failure rate be. If any single bike frame material had a high failure rate the market would have taken care of that pronto. Know a guy who has 50,000 + miles on a Raleigh R700 Aluminum frame. Don't know how many times the drive components have been replaced but this is riding on PA crap roads of chip seal over pot holes.