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-   -   Pulled the Trigger on a New Wheelset... (https://www.bikeforums.net/fifty-plus-50/556890-pulled-trigger-new-wheelset.html)

Hermes 06-29-09 05:38 PM

Pulled the Trigger on a New Wheelset...
 
and power meter. I ordered a set of Williams System 30 clincher wheels with a wireless PowerTap mounted in the rear wheel. The PowerTap SL+ from Saris was ordered today and when it arrives at Williams, they will build it into a System 30 rear wheel. The SL+ was ordered in all black so that it will match the hub on the stock wheels. Deliver should be by the end of next week.

System 30 wheels
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...4402/sys30.jpg

PowerTap
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u...61powertap.jpg

The wireless PowerTap comes with the ANT+ wireless protocol which will interface with my Garmin 705 to measure power to the rear wheel. I did not buy the HR strap and display package since I have that capability with the Garmin.

I was going to wait for the Quarq crank based system but their situation keeps changing and I decided that having a nice wheelset with power that I could swap between our bikes was better than the crank based system for now.

Many of the members of my racing club race on Williams System 30s so we have a lot of experience and results on this setup. Williams is a club sponsor but that is not why I purchased these although it was great that it worked out.

I wanted a new wheelset that was not carbon. I am not happy with the carbon braking for training. There is no upside in descending fast down windy mountain roads while training. Carbon wheels can delaminate from too much braking and heat. So for training, the System 30 will be much better. I can use my other wheels for hill climbs.

And I can put the new wheelset on my TT bike and train with power or on my wife's road bike. The disadvantage of a wheel based power measurement is that for TT racing, i will change to a disc / trispoke wheel combination and lose the power measurement capability. So be it for now.

cyclinfool 06-29-09 05:51 PM

Really cool - look forward to the consumer reports on this.

PAlt 06-29-09 06:15 PM

Also looking forward to hearing your observations on Williams wheelset. I've read a lot of positive opinions, but haven't seen any here on the road or at events. Looked long and hard at the System 19's prior to buying my DT Swiss Mon Chasserals.

George 06-29-09 06:43 PM

I was just looking at those without the power trap, as well as the MAVIC KSYRIUM ELITE ROAD . I'll be watching your post to see how they work out, good luck.:thumb:

BikeWNC 06-29-09 06:50 PM

Nice wheels Hermes. I also have looked at Williams wheels in the carbon 38 variety but the more I learn about carbon the less they make sense (cents too) to me. I pretty much need an Al braking surface. We get too much weather here and I don't want to get caught on a long steep descent on carbon rims in the rain. The 30s look like a good set of everyday wheels. Keep us informed in how they ride.

John E 06-29-09 07:10 PM

I am glad you very wisely chose aluminum rims, since I have severe reservations about the braking safety and reliability of carbon in that application. Also, I know my aluminum rims can trigger inductive traffic signal loop detectors, but I hear conflicting reports on whether carbon fiber conducts electricity well enough to do so.

Your wheels do look nice, but frankly I am not a fan of either radial spoke lacing, which I tried briefly in the early 1970s, or reduced spoke counts. (At least you don't have those silly paired spokes.) The higher the spoke count, the greater the wheel's potential strength-to-weight ratio, and the more finely truable the rims.

BluesDawg 06-29-09 07:21 PM


Originally Posted by John E (Post 9190753)
Also, I know my aluminum rims can trigger inductive traffic signal loop detectors, but I hear conflicting reports on whether carbon fiber conducts electricity well enough to do so.

Something tells me this was not high on Hermes' list of reasons to choose these wheels. :lol:

Allegheny Jet 06-29-09 07:33 PM

Those are good wheels Hemes. Addding the PT will provide a lot of good data. My son purchased a pr of 30's last year and rode on them everyday with no problems. He is also intending to use them for cross racing this fall.

I finally got my Williams 58 carbon tubulars and have three rides on them to date. The wheels really ride differently once over 24 mph and when accelerating. I intend to use the wheels for races and some special rides so riding down a mountain in the rain probably wont be in the cards. I'll continue to use my Mavic Ksyrium Elete's for everyday rides and training, with over 12,000 miles on them they ride true as new.

George 06-29-09 07:38 PM


Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet (Post 9190919)
Those are good wheels Hemes. Addding the PT will provide a lot of good data. My son purchased a pr of 30's last year and rode on them everyday with no problems. He is also intending to use them for cross racing this fall.

I finally got my Williams 58 carbon tubulars and have three rides on them to date. The wheels really ride differently once over 24 mph and when accelerating. I intend to use the wheels for races and some special rides so riding down a mountain in the rain probably wont be in the cards. I'll continue to use my Mavic Ksyrium Elete's for everyday rides and training, with over 12,000 miles on them they ride true as new.

That's good to hear about the Mavic Ksyrium Elite's. I wonder if I would notice much of a difference from my Open Pro's ?

BikeWNC 06-29-09 07:41 PM


Originally Posted by George (Post 9190945)
That's good to hear about the Mavic Ksyrium Elite's. I wonder if I would notice much of a difference from my Open Pro's ?

Yes, they would have a more harsh ride than the Open Pro 3x wheels.

George 06-29-09 07:55 PM


Originally Posted by BikeWNC (Post 9190970)
Yes, they would have a more harsh ride than the Open Pro 3x wheels.

That's better to hear :roflmao2: I have over 4000 miles on mine and never been touched.:thumb:

Hermes 06-29-09 10:27 PM


Originally Posted by BikeWNC (Post 9190613)
Nice wheels Hermes. I also have looked at Williams wheels in the carbon 38 variety but the more I learn about carbon the less they make sense (cents too) to me. I pretty much need an Al braking surface. We get too much weather here and I don't want to get caught on a long steep descent on carbon rims in the rain. The 30s look like a good set of everyday wheels. Keep us informed in how they ride.

I have been caught in the rain with my Bontrager Race XXX clincher wheels. The stopping is okay with the Swiss Stop. It is the grit that is picked up and sands away the carbon surface. And the stopping power could be better. When I road race, I pick the course so that I am willing to kill it on the descents. Braking is critical as always but you do not need as much. I like to be in control at all times in mountain descents when training with a lot of traffic and unknown road conditions around turns. However, the 38s are very seductive and would look cool on the bike.


Originally Posted by John E (Post 9190753)
I am glad you very wisely chose aluminum rims, since I have severe reservations about the braking safety and reliability of carbon in that application. Also, I know my aluminum rims can trigger inductive traffic signal loop detectors, but I hear conflicting reports on whether carbon fiber conducts electricity well enough to do so.

Your wheels do look nice, but frankly I am not a fan of either radial spoke lacing, which I tried briefly in the early 1970s, or reduced spoke counts. (At least you don't have those silly paired spokes.) The higher the spoke count, the greater the wheel's potential strength-to-weight ratio, and the more finely truable the rims.

I own Bontrager Race XXX lite carbon clinchers with the paired 24 spokes in each wheel. These wheels are bomb proof and i have raced them in very tough road conditions

Radial spoke design is fast and makes sense for a front wheel. At 170 pounds, I am within the weight limitation. I own a set of Easton Ascent IIs with radial spoke front wheel. It is an excellent fast wheel and has served me very well.

I own several sets of carbon wheels for track racing, time trials, sprinting and pursuit. And my racing club members including the women's pro team and the men's elite p/1/2 team rides radial spoke wheels and carbon wheels without problems

I do not know where you get your data from or why your experience is to the contrary but my ownership and riding experience does not match yours.


Originally Posted by Allegheny Jet (Post 9190919)
Those are good wheels Hemes. Addding the PT will provide a lot of good data. My son purchased a pr of 30's last year and rode on them everyday with no problems. He is also intending to use them for cross racing this fall.

I finally got my Williams 58 carbon tubulars and have three rides on them to date. The wheels really ride differently once over 24 mph and when accelerating. I intend to use the wheels for races and some special rides so riding down a mountain in the rain probably wont be in the cards. I'll continue to use my Mavic Ksyrium Elete's for everyday rides and training, with over 12,000 miles on them they ride true as new.

I am glad you like the 58s. Those will be great breakaway and bridging wheels. I talked at length with Keith Williams. He is a nice guy and our guys love his customer service.

The power / energy measurement is going to interesting and fun. I will not have power at the track but that is why we have stop watches.:D

cccorlew 06-29-09 10:37 PM

I bought MyLilPony Williams System 19s for her birthday last year.
They are really light and are round as the day we got them.
I've heard nothing but praise for Williams and their customer service.
I'll bet you'l be very happy with the new hoops. Enjoy. Go fast!

Terex 06-30-09 06:54 AM

As noted, please continue to provide updates. Sounds like you're having fun!

I went to a power seminar presented by Hunter Allen last year when I was thinking about a power meter. I don't race, and decided that I just didn't want to invest the time and money to run the equipment. If you're not already a member of the Wattage newsgroup, it has some great information. Probably the best cycling resource on the web - if you use power.

I've got some new Reynolds Assaults that I'm going to put on my Parlee Z4 today. As soon as I decide whether to get my Scott CR1 SL fixed or do a crash replacement frame, I'll put the carbon wheels on the bike I do fast paceline work with, and my Ksyriums on the other bike (more climbing w/ tricky descents).

Always fun to hear what you guys are running and how it works. The comments and observations here are very useful.

jppe 06-30-09 01:49 PM

Good stuff. As if you really needed something to improve your performance!!

Williams seems like such a great value. I too have looked at the 19's and they seem to be a good wheel.

I'm studying the HED's lightweight alloy wheel right now to go on one of my "climbing" bikes.

Hermes 06-30-09 02:35 PM


Originally Posted by jppe (Post 9195780)
Good stuff. As if you really needed something to improve your performance!!

Williams seems like such a great value. I too have looked at the 19's and they seem to be a good wheel.

I'm studying the HED's lightweight alloy wheel right now to go on one of my "climbing" bikes.

One of our track sprinters has Williams 19 and gave me a positive review. He is about 185 and a powerful cyclist. This is for his road bike. I would talk with Keith Williams about the 19 versus the 30 vis a vis weight limitations and your style of riding and roads.

I considered the 19s but I wanted the more aero wheels. Since my climbing is improving, I ride faster uphill. Heavier aero wheels will be faster uphill than lighter less aero wheels and I will get the benefit of less aero drag under all riding conditions.

I have two sets of HED trispoke carbon tubular wheels. They are great wheels and scary fast. I do not think you can go wrong with HED.

HAMMER MAN 06-30-09 04:14 PM

Yes I keep looking @ williams 19 & 30's also as well as neuvations SlR 4 just to have an extra set, both seem to be very sound wheels and it seems a give andtake on quality issues. inmo no real bad reports on either, so I still vasilate trying to figure out which set to buy

v70cat 06-30-09 04:41 PM

How does the Watt meter help you?

Hermes 06-30-09 05:12 PM


Originally Posted by v70cat (Post 9196802)
How does the Watt meter help you?

One could write a thesis on this subject / question. Knowing power production instantaneously and over time allows me to track progress. The only proxy to power produced is level of effort on the pedals. Heart rate lags power and varies day to day. Fatigue and mental state can change ones perception of level of effort. However, measured power is a physical measurement by a strain gage in the power meter. Power over time is energy.

So if I am riding producing 200 watts, it is accurate. If I expected to produce 200 and only produce 180, I know it. Based upon power measurements, energy production and tracking, I will be able to know my short term, threshold, and max power. I can track these numbers in the same manner as going to the gym and bench pressing 100 pounds for 10 reps.

The other thing that power measurement does is it shows you how your are managing your energy. For example, if you are climbing a hill and producing 200 watts, you will know if that is sustainable. If you start out at 225 watts, you will overdue the start and run out of energy on the climb for the end.

If I want to do a constant power interval in my TT bike, without power measurement, I must rely on the perception of effort. If the terrain changes and the wind is blowing, it is difficult to maintain constant power. With power measurement, you hold the power constant and speed does not matter.

If you want to do a max power interval, you can do it over a fixed distance and see how much power your produce and compare it to previous attempts to see improvement.

All these concepts are easily done at the gym while weight lifting. You always know how much weight you are lifting and how many reps you are doing. It is very quantitative and I have found over the years, I respond well to this type of measurable feedback. I will have that quantifiable feedback on the bike if I want to use it. It is much better than heart rate or certainly average speed.

Finally, the power meter is best for intervals and monitoring energy. You can track your energy produced each week and increase or decrease it as the event schedule requires.

For long Z2/Z3 rides, power is less important and heart rate is the key metric.:)

cyclinfool 06-30-09 06:31 PM


Originally Posted by v70cat (Post 9196802)
How does the Watt meter help you?

Hermes hit it square but let me add my simplification.
If you want to know how well you are performing on a bike - power is the direct measurement.
Wind and it's associated resistance can make a big difference in our other measures. If you are wearing a jacket one day and manage 18mph average and wearing just a tight jersey the other and manage 19mph can you tell me on which day your power output was better? A power meter will and it is the cats meow!


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