Hermes

Docs... IMO, finding a doc that will look out for you medically and shares or acknowledges your goals as an athlete is hard to find. The classic example is the man goes into the doc's office and says my arm hurts when I do this. The doc says then stop doing it. There is some truth to the doc's answer but it does not help the man who needs to use his arm in that way. With respect to cardiologists, one needs to find one that has experience with athletic hearts and wants to work with an athlete. There are many abnormalities in highly trained athletes that are totally benign and some are not.

MinnMan, I commend your desire to work hard and improve and I think that you have the impression that to improve or optimize ones time, one has to "die" or "kill" oneself doing very hard efforts. I do not think that is true and in fact can work against you.

Getting ready for track Natz and Worlds, I did some motor pacing flying three lap efforts at high cadence and speed. I was able to work so hard that my arms felt like they were going numb and at the end I was gasping for air. I quickly recovered and felt fine. However, I did not feel like I was going to die. However, I did these with a very large base of endurance, tempo and threshold work over a couple of years of training. Going very hard is about peaking for a specific event.

This is off season and a time to recover and rebuild to a bigger endurance base and peak for next year. I do not know of anyone doing hard efforts now for next season. Exception being those who cyclocross and they have been training for that event. The pros and amateur racers are doing long mileage at endurance and tempo pace and some are doing training camps of several days consisting of long z2/z3 days in the saddle.

I do not want to criticize you so I suggest you check your premises. Alberto Contador and most amateur racers are doing long endurance and tempo rides building their mitochondria, capillaries, lung function, heart and etc while MinnMan is killing himself to the point of feeling like he is going to die.

And I get that your weather is tough, you hate the trainer and want to maximize time on the trainer. Well, I know local cyclists who are riding 2 hours on the trainer knocking out z2/z3 rides. So GAP and HTFU.

IMO, you need longer trainer efforts at lower intensity and build a solid z2/z3 base. Then when the weather gets better you will be ready for the rides you want to do and can add some higher intensity intervals and will not feel so bad and recover faster when you do them.

Allegheny Jet

I have used Tabata's to supplement my race training by developing my sprints and ability to ride under anaerobic distress. They are at the top of HIIT training and have their positives. I believe it takes a real commitment to do them correctly in order to reap the benefits. A secondary benefit to the performance results is that the body is supposed to burn additional fat over the next 24 - 48 hours. I can't make a recommendation other than my experience.

The sets my coach assigned were in 45 second intervals where the first 15 seconds I was to build up speed while seated to 30mph, then for the next 15 seconds go OTS building up more speed, then back in the saddle for 15 seconds easy spin, then repeat the rep again and again until I did the total assigned or when I could not duplicate the effort. The first week I was assigned 5 reps and worked up to 8 total reps. I did those interval workouts after an extensive warm-up. The first 30 minutes was working up to and into Z3. After 30 minutes I was to hit Z4 for 2 minutes, Z3 for 5 minutes, Z2 for 3 minutes, Z4 for 4 minutes, Z2 for 3 minutes then Z5 for 1 minute. Followed with 6 minutes of Z2 easy spin, then the 4 to 7 minute tabatha interval. And of course the 20-30 minute easy spin back home, resulting in a ride of almost 30 miles.

MinnMan

Well Hermes, I guess Contador better keep an eye in the rear view mirror, no?

Seriously, though, I appreciate the points. It's my hope to do longer endurance-based rides outside in the elements on the weekends. Unfortunately, the elements are conspiring against me. The forecast for Saturday is 4 inches of new snow and a high of 16 °F. The skies will clear on Sunday, with a *high* of 2°F. Two hour rides in the gym? <groan>

Hermes

I suggest checking around and see if there are any organized "classes" or groups that ride their road bikes on trainers in a building. We have that in our area. This varies in price. However, it is a lot easier to suffer with a group on a long trainer workout than alone. I have done 2 hour trainer sessions and they are brutal and it is a heroic effort. In a group where everyone is committed to the long duration, it is harder to quit. Also, if you are out of the house, it increases the commitment. Who was the famous Spanish explorer / general who burned his ships so there was no retreat. I need that kind of motivation for long trainer workouts.

StanSeven

Yep. If that isn't available, there are lots of good cycling DVDs to use on a trainer. Get to hate Coach Troy! I personally wouldn't be spending a lot of time on stationary bikes at the gym. They just have too little ability to adjust so they fit you well.

Hermes

Coach Troy was kicked out of heaven. along with Lucifer, for suggesting trainer workouts to the main man.

MinnMan

"He came dancing across the water. Cortez Cortez, what a killer"

AzTallRider

AJ, are you using a PM for these, or do you just know what effort is needed to get your HR in the desired zones, given the HR lag?

AzTallRider

I just borrowed a friend's extra trainer, since my coach is assigning trainer exercises, but, especially since I don't have extra wheels to mount old tires on to save my good stuff from trainer abuse, I'm thinking of ordering one of these: LeMond Revolution Trainer

Reviews are confirming it is closer to being out on the road than just about anything else out there.

Allegheny Jet

I use a HRM while training. I determined the zones based on a max HR that my coach and I decided on. We estimated that my MHR is 3-4 beats higher than I have seen while riding or at the end of intense intervals. I have a good grasp of a Z4 effort and considering the HR lag and I can adjust my efforts, if needed, during the interval as the HR comes up to match the effort expended. I will be converting over to power when my new wheel set arrives shortly after the New Year.

jppe

MinnMan-I always go for simplicity and ask myself simple questions like:

Am I still alive?
Can I tell if I'm getting stronger over the course of the workouts? (HR not going up as high or recovering faster for example)

Congrats on pushing yourself. I suspect your Max HR is still a little higher than what you've seen........Keep up the workouts.

BikeWNC

Neil Young, one of my favorites.

No one here can tell you what you want to hear. Intervals are hard, however a checkup with your physician would be wise.

As for Max HR, my calculated value would be 167 but I just saw 186 this past weekend and have seen 192 on hill attack intervals. At 192, I get a whole body tingling sensation and have to shortly stop or I'll pass out. lol

alcanoe

Ir does sound disturbing. I'm afraid a regular doctor will put a kabash on such activity even if nothing is wrong. It would be best to cummunicate with some one in sports medicine.

When I do intervals both running and cyclig, I get really winded, but that's it. That's even the case when I hit my max.

I found the following (below) on my hard drive which may be of interest. I can't vouch for validity. I do Google Scholar searches periodically on various subjects like this. I test myself periodically as to heart rate recovery rate.

Al

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Significance
If you are fit and in good shape, your heart rate should recover quickly. Your heart rate should return to pre-exercise level within 10 to 15 minutes after exercise. Normal heart-rate recovery is defined as a decrease in your pulse of 15 to 25 beats per minute. Abnormal heart-rate recovery is usually defined as a decrease of 12 or fewer beats per minute. If your recovery heart rate falls in the abnormal category, it could simply mean that you are out of shape and deconditioned, or it could be a sign of a more serious heart condition.

Record the number of heartbeats in each 15-second period for two full minutes after exercising.- APEX


How to measure your recovery heartrate and what it means:
1. Accelerate your heartrate through running, biking, or other method to an anerobic level (a pace you can do for only 20-30 seconds... such as a full sprint)
2. Measure the heart rate with a monitor at the end of the sprint.
3. Recover for 60 seconds by walking or biking slowly (do not stop moving!)
4. Measure the heart rate after 60 seconds and subtract that number from the peak.

The key:
POOR less than 12 Beats Per Minute (BPM) recovery
FAIR 12-20
Good 20-30
Excellent 30-40
Over 40 is outstanding.
The recovery rate is important because this is a measure of the soundness of our cardiovascular system and not just our heart health.

A recovery rate of greater than 35 BPM indicates almost no risk of sudden death from heart disease!

12 or less increases the risk dramatically. People with this issue need to consult with their Doctor before exercising!

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https://www.ajconline.org/article/S00...706-6/abstract

https://www.ajconline.org/article/S00...02)02706-6/pdf

Abstract
A delayed heart rate (HR) recovery after graded exercise testing has been associated with increased all-cause mortality in clinic-based samples. No prior study has examined the association of HR recovery after exercise with the incidence of coronary heart disease (CHD) and cardiovascular disease (CVD) events. We evaluated 2,967 Framingham study subjects (1,400 men, mean age 43 years) who were free of CVD and underwent a treadmill exercise test (Bruce protocol) at a routine examination. We examined the relations of HR recovery indexes (decrease in HR from peak exercise) to the incidence of a first CHD or CVD event and all-cause mortality, adjusting for established CVD risk factors. During follow-up (mean 15 years), 214 subjects experienced a CHD event (156 men), 312 developed a CVD event (207 men), and 167 died (105 men). In multivariable models, continuous HR recovery indexes were not associated with the incidence of CHD or CVD events, or with all-cause mortality. However, in models evaluating quintile-based cut points, the top quintile of HR recovery (greatest decline in HR) at 1-minute after exercise was associated with a lower risk of CHD (hazards ratio vs bottom 4 quintiles 0.54, 95% confidence interval [CI], 0.32 to 0.93) and CVD (hazards ratio 0.61, 95% CI 0.41 to 0.93), but not all-cause mortality (hazards ratio 0.99, 95% CI 0.60 to 1.62). In our community-based sample, HR recovery indexes were not associated with all-cause mortality. A very rapid HR recovery immediately after exercise was associated with lower risk of CHD and CVD events. These findings should be confirmed in other settings.

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https://content.onlinejacc.org/cgi/reprint/38/7/1980.pdf


OBJECTIVES: The goal of this study was to validate the prognostic value of the drop in heart rate (HR) after exercise, compare it to other test responses, evaluate its diagnostic value and clarify some of the methodologic issues surrounding its use.
BACKGROUND: Studies have highlighted the value of a new prognostic feature of the treadmill test—rate of recovery of HR after exercise. These studies have had differing as well as controversial results and did not consider diagnostic test characteristics.

METHODS: All patients were referred for evaluation of chest pain at two university-affiliated Veterans Affairs Medical Centers who underwent treadmill tests and coronary angiography between 1987 and 1999 as predicted after a mean seven years of follow-up. All-cause mortality was the end point for follow-up, and coronary angiography was the diagnostic gold standard.

RESULTS: There were 2,193 male patients who had treadmill tests and coronary angiography. Heart rate recovery at 2 min after exercise outperformed other time points in prediction of death; a decrease of <22 beats/min had a hazard ratio of 2.6 (2.4 to 2.8 95% confidence interval). This new measurement was ranked similarly to traditional variables including age and metabolic equivalents but failed to have diagnostic power for discriminating those who had angiographic disease.

CONCLUSIONS: Heart rate at 1 or 2 min of recovery has been validated as a prognostic measurement and should be recorded as part of all treadmill tests. This new measurement does not replace, but is supplemental to, established scores.

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https://jama.ama-assn.org/cgi/reprint/284/11/1392

Heart Rate Recovery and Treadmill Exercise Score as Predictors of Mortality in Patients Referred for Exercise ECG

JAMA. 2000;284:1392-1398.

Context Both attenuated heart rate recovery following exercise and the Duke treadmill exercise score have been demonstrated to be independent predictors of mortality, but their prognostic value relative to each other has not been studied.

Objective To assess the associations among abnormal heart rate recovery, treadmill exercise score, and death in patients referred specifically for exercise electrocardiography.

Design and Setting Prospective cohort study conducted in an academic medical center between September 1990 and December 1997, with a median follow-up of 5.2 years.

Patients A total of 9454 consecutive patients (mean [SD] age, 53 [11] years; 78% male) who underwent symptom-limited exercise electrocardiographic testing. Exclusion criteria included age younger than 30 years, history of heart failure or valvular disease, pacemaker implantation, and uninterpretable electrocardiograms.

Main Outcome Measures All-cause mortality, as predicted by abnormal heart rate recovery, defined as failure of heart rate to decrease by more than 12/min during the first minute after peak exercise, and by treadmill exercise score, defined as (exercise time) - (5 x maximum ST-segment deviation) - (4 x treadmill angina index).

Results Three hundred twelve deaths occurred in the cohort. Abnormal heart rate recovery and intermediate- or high-risk treadmill exercise score were present in 20% (n = 1852) and 21% (n = 1996) of patients, respectively. In univariate analyses, death was predicted by both abnormal heart rate recovery (8% vs 2% in patients with normal heart rate recovery; hazard ratio [HR], 4.16; 95% confidence interval [CI], 3.33-5.19; 2 = 158; P<.001) and intermediate- or high-risk treadmill exercise score (8% vs 2% in patients with low-risk scores; HR, 4.28; 95% CI, 3.43-5.35; 2 = 164; P<.001). After adjusting for age, sex, standard cardiovascular risk factors, medication use, and other potential confounders, abnormal heart rate recovery remained predictive of death (among the 8549 patients not taking -blockers, adjusted HR, 2.13; 95% CI, 1.63-2.78; P<.001), as did intermediate- or high-risk treadmill exercise score (adjusted HR, 1.49; 95% CI, 1.15-1.92; P = .002). There was no interaction between these 2 predictors.

Conclusions In this cohort of patients referred specifically for exercise electrocardiography, both abnormal heart rate recovery and treadmill exercise score were independent predictors of mortality. Heart rate recovery appears to provide additional prognostic information to the established treadmill exercise score and should be considered for routine incorporation into exercise test interpretation.
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MinnMan

Thanks for that info alcanoe. It reminds me that I need to check my heart rate recovery more regularly. I have measured it now and again and it's always really good - 6 measurements in the last year range from 37 to 52 in a minute (average of 6 measurements=44), but I haven't measured it since September. Also, according to the instructions you've posted, I'm not sure I've measured it correctly, as I do go from full activity to full stop. (Whenever I measure it, my HR goes up for the first few seconds, but I measure from the rate before I stop activity to the rate 60 seconds from stopping)

See, I think I have a pretty strong heart. But then again I get this problem after tough intervals that the rest of you don't...

MinnMan

You're tough.

I don't wear a HRM on my real bicycle, and I wonder what my HR looks like when I'm really pushing out there. One thing about indoor bikes - you can push yourself harder because you can set a goal (I'm gonna hold xxx RPM at this setting for y minutes) that's a little more concrete than riding a real bike. Also, you don't have to save a fraction of your energy for paying attention to your surroundings, as you're not going to crash the trainer.

BikeWNC

True about the trainer in that you don't have to worry about balance. But HR indoors will most likely be elevated compared to the same power effort outdoors because it is harder to cool yourself. The body has to work harder trying to cool off and the HR increases. That's another reason why power is better than HR. Still, people trained with HR alone for many years and did pretty well.

I haven't done the hill attack intervals in a couple years now. I need to get back to them though they are quite hard. Perhaps this Spring after I develop a good base over the winter.

Pat

Minn Man,

A physician or much better a cardiologist would be able to clear you for high intensity work like intervals.

But as far as giving you advice on the specific kinds of intervals and stuff, that is not really in most physicians are of expertise. In facts, it used to be that a fit cyclist going to a cardiologist often was diagnosed with a heart problem. The reason for that is a sick individual has a heart that is trying to compensate of damage. A fit cyclist has trained in a way to make his heart compensate for training. Both conditions looks similar, they just have different causes. Even a physician interested in sports medicine would probably only be useful if they had extensive knowledge of cyclists.

On your intervals, I find that my heart rate tends to lag effort. It takes a bit of time for my heart to figure out that it needs to start beating to meet the demands on the system. That is why you heart rate peaks after your interval. If you increase effort a bit more slowly and sustain it longer, you might be able to get your heart beating faster which means that you can sustain a higher aerobic delivery to your muscles and a more intense sustainable interval. But then again, maybe not.

Another thing with your intervals, you talk about how terrible you feel afterwards. It sounds to me that you are going anaerobic and producing all sort of lactic acid and CO2. I bet it is the high concentrations of CO2 in your blood stream that is producing the effects. Again, a slower build up and a longer interval may help.

Now, maybe you like the nasty feeling. Some people enjoy pain because they very much buy into "no pain, no gain" so the more pain the better. It gives them a feeling of progress. But I have seen quite a few people use the bike to inflict pain on themselves in each and everyride. That is called negative reinforcement. The bike becomes an instrument of torture. Most people who do this, seem to eventually find reasons to stop hurting themselves. They usually drop out of the sport. But you might be different. I just do not know.

If I am right and your intervals are primarily anaerobic, they might not be doing you much good. Most people can train and get an impressive performance on their aerobic conditioning. But anaerobic performance is largely a matter of innate ability. If you are not naturally good sprinter, all sorts of training will not make you a great sprinter. However, most couch potatoes can train themselves to do quite well on endurance sports. You efforts in your really short and intense intervals may not be giving you as much improvement as you might think. But I guess it depends on how you execute them and from your description, I am not sure.

Good luck to you.

alcanoe

I thought the whole point of intervals was to go anaerobic. You need to get above lactate threshold. Otherwise, there seems no point in intervals.

Al

seemunkee

Article in Outside magazine on this point. Either go easy for a recovery workout or go REALLY hard.
https://outsideonline.com/fitness/tra...ev_153019.html

alcanoe

I would argue (with the article) that getting over lactate threshold periodically has major health benefits. That's shown by the data, not the least of which is that 43,000 member trial I mentioned earlier which indicates that the top quintile of fitness resulted in more than an order of magnitude reduction in all-cause mortality compared to the bottom quintile which included sedentary and light exercisers.

It's likely related among other things to the increased generation if growth hormone by strenuous activity not to mention the resulting very high insulin sensitive that lasts a good while after the exercise period.

Either for fitness or health, it's important to measure your max heart rate to know your lactate threshold. For the less than the optimum fit, that seems to be around 80% of HR max. For the top-fit folks, it's more like 85 or even 90%. For pros like Armstrong, they actually do blood measurements to determine it.

The benefit of over-lactate for athletes is that so-trained, your body can generate much more power at lower heart rates. Even at my moderate fitness level and age, I've felt the effect.

One of the more interesting sections of the book Armstrong's War was how they used a long steep hill, a power meter and a blood lactate measurement (blood taken at the top of the climb) to determine when Armstrong was ready for the tour. That was an excellent book on how tough it is to be stage road racer.

Al

StanSeven

Not trying to downplay your symptons, but this may be at least part of the reason. That plus your legs no longer are demanding the intensity of blood flow after you stop the interval but the heart continues to pump.

DnvrFox

Which is why I keep moving after hard effort and don't just stop my effort completely.

Hermes

Al, as usual, some great points with quantitative facts to support your argument.

With respect to Armstrong's War, the LT field test is a good one. At Stanford Human Performance lab at Stanford University, I can have a VO2 max and lactate threshold test done in the lap on my road bike or Dr. Stacy Sims, from the lab, will meet me on a hill to do the LT test outdoors with the same protocol as Lance. The price is $250 in the lab and $400 outdoors (estimates from a couple of years ago).

Since I have a power meter, I do the functional threshold test on the road and use the protocol provided by my coach. He reviews the data and my impressions during the test and sets my FTP power which is the maximum continuous power I can sustain for 1 hour.

We think this is accurate enough and can be repeated a couple of times per year without the cost of a lab test. However, the on the hill test with Sims would be pretty cool and very pro.

The goal with doing above LT HR or power is to increase FTP power AND VO2max and Anaerobic Threshold power which will be useful for certain events, terrain and rides. They are not a substitute for long hours in the saddle building endurance.

One of the problems MinnMan may be having is the way he is doing the intervals. My goal when I do intervals is to do the most intervals I can at the lowest power in that interval range of power. So if I am doing a VO2max interval of 5 minutes and I want to do 4 of them and my range of VO2Max power is 300 to 330 watts, then I target 300 watts for the beginning interval. I know by experience that if I start at 330 watts or even higher, my power is going to decrease with each interval such that the last couple will fall below 300 watts.

Most novices doing high intensity intervals kill the first one and with each succeeding interval get weaker. That is not as effective as hitting the first one correctly and getting stronger with each succeeding interval.

So if I start with a lower power, I am not killing myself. At the end of the set of intervals, it becomes very difficult to hold power but once again it is not like one is going to die. I make the interval session more difficult by adding intervals and do 8 or 10 by 5 minute VO2Max intervals. That is a very tough workout.

Now if you do not have a power meter, you have to rely on perceived effort. Heart rate lags too much to be effective and IMO will cause one to overcook the first couple of efforts resulting in the feeling of I am going to die.

alcanoe

Very illuminating post. To think that "normal" people have access too and use this kind of technology is impressive to say the least. Your coach sounds impressive as well.

It appears you are using the power meter output to train rather than a heart rate defining lactate threshold after you get a power reading calibrated at a measured lactate level.

I don't do structured intervals per se as I mountain bike and prefer to spend my time on the trails. However, I do get my heart rate up above 80% and 85% for typically 5 minutes at a time at irregular intervals dictated by the trail.

On a recent 15 mile ride in rolling low-hills country I spent 18 seconds above 90%, 14 min. 13 sec. between 85 and 90% , 27 min 30 sec between 80 and 85% and 46 minutes between 70 and 80% of measured max. Total ride time was an hour 43 minutes.

On another 19 mile ride the week before, I spent 47 minutes out of an hour 54 min. above 80%. At 71, I have no real difficulty going above lactate which is gratifying to say the least.

Unlike your continuous and more beneficial high power for an hour, mine are broken up into shorter periods.

I may have inadvertently run into the building-up process you mention on running sprints.

When the weather is too wet to ride trails for a significant period, I run and do sprints, I've noticed that for the first two or three, it's almost impossible to get my heart rate really high. It's too hard, so I don't push ultra hard. However, on about the fourth, I can easily get my heart rate up, even to "running measured max" if I want too.It seems easy.

After that easy one, the later ones only get harder to get the heart rate up there. I'm strictly playing at sprints and only run full-out for a tenth of a mile, then walk a tenth or two. I only do 5 or 6 when I do them.

There may be a mitigating factor due to Asthma which could account for some of the required build-up over successive sprints.

I don't actually look at the heart rate monitor when I'm running as it seems to risky at over 10 to 11 mph. Too fast for foot travel for an old guy though it's only very briefly. I look at the chart when I get back to the pc.

Al