20-25-30 miles no food, little water?
08-28-11, 11:24 PM
#26
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Bonk training is an exercise program designed for weight loss. It suggests the following strategy on an empty stomach the first thing in the morning, when glycogen store levels are low: consume coffee or caffeine equivalent to 2 or 3 cups of coffee, run or cycle at a casual pace (60% of max heart rate) for 20–90 minutes, have a normal breakfast right after exercising. Proponents claim this will force the body to "bonk" shortly into the exercise, and subsequently burn more fat to generate the energy. It is not clear how medically sound this idea is; exerting too much energy and "bonking hard," or experiencing severe hypoglycemia, can be dangerous.[3
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall
You might burn more fat by not eating but you might bonk if you push hard.
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37492881...t-eat-workout/
"Though members of the group that didn't eat performed worse on the intensive training, they burned a higher proportion of fat to carbohydrates than the group that ate. The results were published by Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, the journal of the American College of Sports Medicine".
Sounds like tempting a bonk. Just saying.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hitting_the_wall
You might burn more fat by not eating but you might bonk if you push hard.
https://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/37492881...t-eat-workout/
"Though members of the group that didn't eat performed worse on the intensive training, they burned a higher proportion of fat to carbohydrates than the group that ate. The results were published by Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise, the journal of the American College of Sports Medicine".
Sounds like tempting a bonk. Just saying.
08-28-11, 11:55 PM
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Your first quote is a nonsense article from wikipedia not from an actual study. The second reference is correct and it doesn't include the athletes 'bonking' they merely started their training in a fasted state. For reference your muscles and liver can store approx 2000 cals of glycogen. Skipping a 500 cal breakfast isn't going to make you bonk in a 90 min bout of moderate intensity exercise.
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/peak18.htm
The relevance of this to pre-exercise nutrition is as follows ... During a fasting period (such as overnight), liver glycogen stores will lower. If you compete in a morning event without having eaten anything since the night before, you start at a disadvantage. Although your muscle glycogen will still start off high, once it begins to be used up (after an hour or so) there's a reduced amount of blood glucose supplied by the liver to turn to.
My rides often go 2.5 to 3 hours.
https://tunedintocycling.wordpress.co...tion-the-bonk/
And as the poster said earlier Bonk training would be to down some coffee and take off on a bike ride. It is in fact in the definition of bonk training I believe?
https://www.superskinnyme.com/Weight%..._Training.html
What would you call Bonk training?
08-29-11, 04:36 AM
#28
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It is exactly what bonk training is. I have done in past years to shed a few pounds after injuries with the guidance from cycling coaches and sports physicians at the Cleveland Clinic. It isn't just a wiki thing as you suggest. Joe Friel has also blogged about it although he is not a proponent.
Last edited by jdon; 08-29-11 at 05:18 AM.
08-29-11, 04:39 AM
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On my typical after-work ride, I haven't had anything to eat since lunch, but have been taking in Diet Cokes all afternoon. Have to stay awake while thinking about the bike ride...
Usually I go anywhere from 26 to 40 miles on these rides. More often than not I don't have any water. I never take in any food. I usually only get a little water at a turn-around point where there's a port-a-potty. If it's cool or winter I wouldn't get any water.
Usually I go anywhere from 26 to 40 miles on these rides. More often than not I don't have any water. I never take in any food. I usually only get a little water at a turn-around point where there's a port-a-potty. If it's cool or winter I wouldn't get any water.
08-29-11, 05:28 AM
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My afternoon, afterwork rides are about the same, although I only do 15-20 mile rides because of time constraints. I go directly home, get the bike and off to ride. I will take water, but on a normal ride I will only go through half a bottle at most. I have lunch three days a week, so there are rides where I haven't had anything to eat since breakfast, which is normally a begal and a cup of coffee. My weekend rides of 30+ miles are on a begal and a cup of coffee.
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08-29-11, 06:03 AM
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I've learned to keep both food and water in my system while riding. If it’s an early morning ride, I'll have a banana and peanut butter & toast before heading out.
Once I've started with some food in my body, I can ride 30-40 with one bottle of water. Running on empty doesn’t work for me, or most people.
Once I've started with some food in my body, I can ride 30-40 with one bottle of water. Running on empty doesn’t work for me, or most people.
08-29-11, 06:32 AM
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08-29-11, 06:38 AM
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08-29-11, 06:51 AM
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I was hoping for a bit more than that. Seriously, there are a whole lot of statements made by folks - who, when you ask them to back it up - really have nothing available. I can understand your saying it does not work for you, based on your experiences. But when one makes blanket statements, it is useful to have some facts behind the statement, IMHO.
For events of less than three hours, the body can used stored energy. Once that stored energy is used, the body consumes itself to support the energy needs of the activity. This can be good for temporary weight loss, but can it can also create injury. The body will consume muscle if needed. One of the problems with a nutrition deficit is that a cyclist can burn calories at a rate that exceeds the rate that the body can deliver energy through digestion. This means that any laps in nutrition cannot be recovered by adding food later.
Last edited by Barrettscv; 08-29-11 at 11:59 AM.
08-29-11, 06:57 AM
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It's very well known in endurance training that keeping up with the 250 or more calorie burn rate per hour is critical for rides longer than three hours.
For events of less than three hours, the body can used stored energy. Once that stored energy is used, the body consumes itself to support the energy needs of the activity. This can be good for temporary weight loss, but can it can also create injury. The body will consume muscle if needed. One of the problems with a nutrition deficit is that a cyclist can burn calories at a rate that exceeds the rate that the body can delivery energy through digestion. This means that any laps in nutrition cannot be recovered by adding food later.
For events of less than three hours, the body can used stored energy. Once that stored energy is used, the body consumes itself to support the energy needs of the activity. This can be good for temporary weight loss, but can it can also create injury. The body will consume muscle if needed. One of the problems with a nutrition deficit is that a cyclist can burn calories at a rate that exceeds the rate that the body can delivery energy through digestion. This means that any laps in nutrition cannot be recovered by adding food later.
It was further modified by my statement that for rides over 30 miles, I would modify my nutrition strategy.
I fail to see where presenting scenarios with more than 3 hours of riding proves a scenario with less than 3 hours of riding??
Last edited by DnvrFox; 08-29-11 at 07:02 AM.
08-29-11, 07:01 AM
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Assuming your statements are correct, the original thread statement was for rides of 20-25-30 miles, generally less than 3 hours, in my experience, assuming one averages over 10 miles per hour, which, I believe, many of using this forum do.
It was further modified by my statement that for rides over 30 miles, I would modify my nutrition strategy.
I fail to see where presenting scenarios with more than 3 hours of riding proves a scenario with less than 3 hours of riding??
It was further modified by my statement that for rides over 30 miles, I would modify my nutrition strategy.
I fail to see where presenting scenarios with more than 3 hours of riding proves a scenario with less than 3 hours of riding??
08-29-11, 07:04 AM
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However, I can further state that it works fine for me, and I am able to accomplish a full set of activities, and did so when I was working. Fortunately, I am retired, but I still engage in a full day of activities, often including swimming for 45 minutes, taking 3 mile walks, etc. However, I DO love that afternoon nap!!
08-29-11, 07:38 AM
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I'll easily do 30 miles without food (either before or during), but always have water available. I rarely drink during my 10 mile commute, but drink plenty either before or after. If going more than 30 miles, I'll eat a little while on the bike. I'm anticipating this may change as I reduce the fat stored on my body .
Naps are good...
.Naps are good...
08-29-11, 07:59 AM
#41
You gonna eat that?
When I do the club breakfast ride on Saturday, I usually don't eat at all or sometimes just grab something light like a banana. It's usually about 25-30 miles until breakfast. No big deal. Then again, I've got plenty of reserves 
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08-29-11, 08:20 AM
#42
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The obvious caffeine stimulation enhancing performance and weight loss, it delays the onset of lactic acid and has been shown in studies to reduce recovery time and the effects of DOMS.
08-29-11, 08:21 AM
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You'll want to refill both water bottles during a ride like that.
08-29-11, 08:35 AM
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But a small amount generally does no harm, especially the weak stuff we Yanks generally make.
I recall that the Tour riders usually always include it in their morning rations, and I have to think it is strong stuff. When I lived in Europe, coffee was served strong. It offers a mild stimulant effect and... "it delays the onset of lactic acid and has been shown in studies to reduce recovery time and the effects of DOMS."
Now, I dont know what DOMS are, but if you are drinking water or some other liquid on your bike, well, it becomes kind of a moot point if you tope a bit of coffee.
Last edited by dahut; 08-29-11 at 08:42 AM.
08-29-11, 09:21 AM
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Pre-ride 6-12 cups of coffee and a banana.
1.5-2 hour ride-32 oz. water
Post ride-Vanilla protein powder mixed with chocolate & skim milk , cottage cheese, plus food of lunch variety. PBJ, ham/turkey n swiss on whole wheat or main meal leftovers from night before.
1.5-2 hour ride-32 oz. water
Post ride-Vanilla protein powder mixed with chocolate & skim milk , cottage cheese, plus food of lunch variety. PBJ, ham/turkey n swiss on whole wheat or main meal leftovers from night before.
08-29-11, 09:24 AM
#46
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Just following up what my trainer suggested I read.
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/peak18.htm
The relevance of this to pre-exercise nutrition is as follows ... During a fasting period (such as overnight), liver glycogen stores will lower. If you compete in a morning event without having eaten anything since the night before, you start at a disadvantage. Although your muscle glycogen will still start off high, once it begins to be used up (after an hour or so) there's a reduced amount of blood glucose supplied by the liver to turn to.
https://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/peak18.htm
The relevance of this to pre-exercise nutrition is as follows ... During a fasting period (such as overnight), liver glycogen stores will lower. If you compete in a morning event without having eaten anything since the night before, you start at a disadvantage. Although your muscle glycogen will still start off high, once it begins to be used up (after an hour or so) there's a reduced amount of blood glucose supplied by the liver to turn to.
This article provides an excellent summary on what a bonk is and why you wouldn't want to ever experience it during training.
And as the poster said earlier Bonk training would be to down some coffee and take off on a bike ride. It is in fact in the definition of bonk training I believe?
https://www.superskinnyme.com/Weight%..._Training.html
What would you call Bonk training?
https://www.superskinnyme.com/Weight%..._Training.html
What would you call Bonk training?
Training in a fasted state appears to increase fat oxidation but the evidence for this is equivocal. For example, Effects of carbohydrate ingestion before and during exercise on glucose kinetics and performance tested a group of well trained athletes and found: "The results from this study demonstrate that even when relatively high amounts of CHO are fed in combination before and during exercise, the contribution of CHO and fat to total substrate use were not affected when compared with ingestion of a placebo."
The test consisted of riding at moderate intensity for 2 hrs followed by a simulated time trial. The athletes that were given carbohydrates (CHO) before and during exercise performed the best in the time trial (33 vs 50min) but even the ones given placebo before and during the test didn't bonk.
08-29-11, 09:27 AM
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Incorrect.
It is exactly what bonk training is. I have done in past years to shed a few pounds after injuries with the guidance from cycling coaches and sports physicians at the Cleveland Clinic. It isn't just a wiki thing as you suggest. Joe Friel has also blogged about it although he is not a proponent.
It is exactly what bonk training is. I have done in past years to shed a few pounds after injuries with the guidance from cycling coaches and sports physicians at the Cleveland Clinic. It isn't just a wiki thing as you suggest. Joe Friel has also blogged about it although he is not a proponent.
08-29-11, 09:29 AM
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It only dehydrates you if you're not used to drinking it. If you drink coffee regularly there is no diuretic effect. It's one of the few proven, legal performance enhancers. I don't understand why anyone wouldn't drink it!
08-29-11, 09:30 AM
#49
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I agree and have always found it misleading but I didn't invent the term. I also think your first post was poorly worded as well. I think we are closer in opinion than you think.
08-29-11, 09:36 AM
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I accept that as your recommendation.
However, I can further state that it works fine for me, and I am able to accomplish a full set of activities, and did so when I was working. Fortunately, I am retired, but I still engage in a full day of activities, often including swimming for 45 minutes, taking 3 mile walks, etc. However, I DO love that afternoon nap!!
However, I can further state that it works fine for me, and I am able to accomplish a full set of activities, and did so when I was working. Fortunately, I am retired, but I still engage in a full day of activities, often including swimming for 45 minutes, taking 3 mile walks, etc. However, I DO love that afternoon nap!!
Got twenty one miles in this morning, might could have used those arm warmers though. It got a might cool at the bottom of some of those hills.