bradtx

Barrettscv, Aren't all physical endeavors mind over matter to some degree? Unfortunately brain power can't overcome a physical issue like my wonky knee.

Brad

Dudelsack 

Thank you for this resource! I can't find that actual broadcast but I've found several other lectures of his. I'm listening to one of his interviews right now.

The danger with any thing scientific is that lay folk over simplify and interpret what he's saying is "It's all mind over matter". As I said, if it were that simple no one would ever collapse and die of heat stroke and we wouldn't drive cars because we could just run 60 MPH if we really really believed we could.

OTOH, his comments on how interval training is more to teach the mind to suffer well rather than goose our physiology are quite provocative. I'm going to study his stuff some more.

Looigi

Sooo, the brain again was the limit.

Dudelsack 

Wut?

Pete In Az

"Whether you think you can or think you can't, you're probably right." Mark Twain (?)

Barrettscv 

Just for clarity: The concept of a Central Governor Theory of Fatigue is an example of mind of matter. The issue is not that the mind wants to go beyond the ultimate level of effort, but that the mind frequently underestimates the full athletic ability of the individual, limiting performance for no real reason.

Learning to train while following a well-constructed plan & schedule to push beyond perceived limits is key. The body can't do the impossible, but the mind can limit what is accomplished if you let it.

Bruce Lee said it very well.

Dudelsack 

I pulled up the old photos of Bruce Lee and read about his life and interestingly about his death.

Get that ripped from a tofu and meditation regime? Come on. He was so clearly on PEDs it's pitiful.

Die at the age of 30 something from cerebral edema from taking a few aspirin tablets? Of course, of course.

He was a doper. I see no reason to take whatever he had to say very seriously.

locolobo13 

I dunno. It seems like I can injure myself without trying. Maybe I'm defective. I have had what I considered good workouts only to wake up the next morning with a pinched nerve in my back or another joint problem. Muscle soreness feels good in comparison.

Yes you can push harder. That extra burst of speed from our evolutionary past doesn't care about strains, sprains or breaks. Because if you don't get away from the big bad wolf you won't have any injuries to enjoy.

ModeratedUser150120149

That theory is another piece of oversimplified garbage.

The mind and body have to work together. Neither can exceed the capability of the other. The whole point of training is to get the two into harmony for maximum performance and pleasure. Any regimen that doesn't work to that end is fatally flawed.

oldster

thats like trying to work DXin the middle of a solar flare...
Bud

GFish

Over simplified? I don't think so...

I may not have been a sports jock, but my kids (5) and their friends were all into sports through High School. Over the years, I've watched them workout, suffer, get stronger and improve their abilities. There were many times they felt like giving up, where the body was tired and sore, and other times they felt overwhelmed by the competition. Yet with the right coaching and positive re-enforcement's (improved mental approach), they were able to push through and exceed their own expectations.

For me, it was golf. I was always a bogey golfer or slightly better with a 13 handicap. Golf is really 20% physical and 80% mental. Over a couple years, I focused a lot of time and energy into the sport and became a scratch golfer. I kept re-enforcing positive thoughts and practicing with purpose and it worked.

The mind is really powerful, I think the saying "mind over matter" really applies here. A positive mental approach and learning to work through a physically tough workout can lead to improved performance.

As a new out of shape cyclist, I admit to struggling, where I allow the mind to control the outcome. It's just easier this way with less pain. But I'm working on getting better, working through the pain, lots of pain.

berner

I remember during the Vietnam War a Buddhist monk by way of protest sat down in the middle of a busy intersection, poured gasoline over himself and then calmly sat while he burned to death. There was a photo in Life magazine showing this incident. More recently, in the last few years Buddhist monks in Tibet have been doing the same to protest the Chinese invasion. That is a level of commitment I find incredible.

Back in the 20th century Roger Bannister, a Brit, ran the worlds first 4 minute mile, an athletic feat many thought was impossible. Today, that is common and in fact the best high school track runners are near that fast.

From these examples it is clear that whatever the physical limits of the human body, no one knows where those limits are and training the mind will make it possible to explore those limits. I think a good example of exploration of those limits is found in the world of extreme skiing. It is truly amazing to see someone hurl themselves off a big mountain on skis, practically in free fall and in control. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vYKhc...eature=related

Dudelsack 

Anyway, if you'd like a bit more nuanced discussion of this stuff, if you have iTunes you can find a podcast called Marathon Talk. Download episode 47 and go to about 33:30. It's good stuff.

ModeratedUser150120149

The Key to most endeavours is to train both the body and the mind. We really are just at the kindergarten level of understanding them. But, what we do understand is that they are inextricably linked and dependent. In whatever field the most successful are those who understand that dependence and train both so as to achieve a harmony of purpose and performance. Unfortunately many, maybe most, people do not understand this mutual dependence and the value of harmony so they lose out on achieving their full potential.

Gravity Aided

Wow .

nkfrench 

If this was the case, then the individuals who are winners in one of their life's endeavors would not be failures at anything else they do.

I don't think we fully understand what "talent" and "natural gifts" are. I believe it includes how our bodies function at the cellular level in how energy is produced from fuel, differences in brain development, and more. Your will can only enable you to do what your body is ready for.

The hormones that kick in during an fight vs flight stress situation giving incredible strength can also kill people. Our bodies are full of checks and balances systems to ensure our survival.

Rowan

This is the most critical comment of any in this thread. It reinforces the old saying that there are no overnight successes. The winners are people who go out and practise and train more than the next guy. They concentrate not only on their fitness, but on technique so that under stress, they maintain better form and efficiency than the next guy. The examples are myriad. Woods, Armstrong, et al all were successful because of the work they did that the public did not see. Armstrong was particularly outstanding when lined up against the fat and lazy Ullrich.

I could say that without this all-encompassed training, success will elude the lazy, the overconfident, the uncommitted and the untalented.

But then that would be harshly unfair for those who really don't give a rat's root about "high performance" athletic pursuits, and just want to stay active and healthy.

PAlt

If you want to examine this topic from strictly a cycling perspective, watch the DVDs "Bicycle Dreams" and "Race Across America" by Stephen Auerbach, read "Hell on Two Wheels" by Amy Snyder. You'll find the answer is that a combination of physical and mental training are key in the ability to perform at a high level. There's also a bit of fortune in the mix, I believe. Mental toughness is a HUGE part of how RAAM solo riders ultimately succeed and / or fail, as well as HOW effectively they do either. When it comes to athletic excellence, the mind is a terrible thing to waste...

Dudelsack 

Out of curiosity, besides the OP, miss jean and myself, how many here have actually pulled up one of Dr. Noakes' interviews and listened to what he really has to say?

Barrettscv 

While I am a strong believer in setting high standards and pushing beyond mental and emotional limits, I also believe that success is a long term proposition and that moderation has a role to play.

As a fifty-something cycling enthusiast, I know that the real race is that against decline. My goal is to remain as fit as I was when I was middle aged. After five years of moderate effort, I’m in the best shape I’ve been in 25 years. Now I just want to maintain my fitness and lose the last 10-15 pounds of excess weight.

If I can persist with my 4000 to 5000 miles/year of cycling, along with 10 days a month of cross training, I will fulfill this goal.

downtube42

I'm in the engine business. An engine has a physical maximum torque curve - basically limited by how much fuel and oxygen can be crammed in the cylinder. But then it has a effective torque curve - shaped by maps in the ECU - that are well below the hypothetical maximum. At the ragged edge of the physical curve, efficiency is less than ideal, performance can be rough, and it's even possible to damage the engine.

I think of our mind and bodies as working much the same way. Our subconscious has soft limits to keep us from hitting the hard physical limits, unless we're in fight or flight mode. But we have learned that pushing beyond the soft limits, we can move the hard limits.

Engines can't do that last bit