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Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles after ending defense

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Lance Armstrong stripped of Tour de France titles after ending defense

Old 09-28-12, 06:04 AM
  #226  
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Old 09-28-12, 02:30 PM
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Originally Posted by Bikey Mikey View Post

+1
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Old 10-10-12, 04:58 PM
  #228  
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I've always wanted to believe Armstrong was the victim of a witch hunt. Then, last month, I heard an interview with Tyler Hamilton on NPR. That interview shook my faith, and then today, this.
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/cycling/sto...ng-agency.html
Mike Barry is the son of Michael Barry Sr., the builder of the famed Mariposa bicycles.
Not looking good for ole' Lance I think.
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Old 10-10-12, 05:54 PM
  #229  
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
I've always wanted to believe Armstrong was the victim of a witch hunt. Then, last month, I heard an interview with Tyler Hamilton on NPR. That interview shook my faith, and then today, this.
Dan - I also heard that interview, and I then bought Hamilton's book. It contains extensive discussions of just how the EPO, steroid, and blood doping was accomplished, Lance's role in it, and the drug culture in cycling of the late 90s and early 2000s. It has the ring of truth to me, because it matches up with the public Lance - his meticulous preparation, his focus on the numbers, his need for control. I'm going to spend a few hours over the next few days reading the USADA report - I suspect that it will correlate closely with Hamilton's version of events.
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Old 10-10-12, 06:20 PM
  #230  
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Originally Posted by Dan Burkhart View Post
I've always wanted to believe Armstrong was the victim of a witch hunt. Then, last month, I heard an interview with Tyler Hamilton on NPR. That interview shook my faith, and then today, this.
https://www.cbc.ca/sports/cycling/sto...ng-agency.html
Mike Barry is the son of Michael Barry Sr., the builder of the famed Mariposa bicycles.
Not looking good for ole' Lance I think.
Conversely, the things arguing against the USADA:
-- No hard evidence. The hard evidence says Lance is inncoent
-- Most of the people accusing him have something to be gained by making that accusation
-- The fact that the USADA had to spend so many weeks to put together a case that was already supposed to be complete and airtight
-- The fact that the overly strong, overly critical personal put-downs the USADA is using strongly suggests that they are on a vendetta rather than being an impartial, professional organization who are merely doing their job.
-- The fact that this happened so very many years ago... Why is it being dredged up out of the past?
-- The fact that the USADA has essentially unlimited funds and unlimited resources to persue whatever they want. Their victim does not have access to those resources.

Unfortunately, the USADA has put Lance in the position that he now has to prove he is innocent -- yet there is no way for him to prove that...

Could any of us prove that we didn't take drugs 10 years ago?

So, for the USADA case, there remain only questions...
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Old 10-10-12, 09:40 PM
  #231  
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You know, George, there are people on death row based on less "hard evidence" than USADA presents. Sworn testimony from witnesses is evidence, and courts and juries every day use it to convict people of far more serious crimes than blood doping in bike races. I suggest you read Tyler Hamilton's book. It describes in detail how he, Lance, and all the others avoided testing positive for many years. I'd consider the statements of Lance's former teammates to be far more reliable evidence than negative urine tests.
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Old 10-11-12, 12:34 AM
  #232  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Conversely, the things arguing against the USADA:
-- No hard evidence. The hard evidence says Lance is inncoent
-- Most of the people accusing him have something to be gained by making that accusation
-- The fact that the USADA had to spend so many weeks to put together a case that was already supposed to be complete and airtight
-- The fact that the overly strong, overly critical personal put-downs the USADA is using strongly suggests that they are on a vendetta rather than being an impartial, professional organization who are merely doing their job.
-- The fact that this happened so very many years ago... Why is it being dredged up out of the past?
-- The fact that the USADA has essentially unlimited funds and unlimited resources to persue whatever they want. Their victim does not have access to those resources.

Unfortunately, the USADA has put Lance in the position that he now has to prove he is innocent -- yet there is no way for him to prove that...

Could any of us prove that we didn't take drugs 10 years ago?

So, for the USADA case, there remain only questions...
The press reports of the USADA report seems very damning. The report includes new analyses of his blood stored since 1999 and finds evidence of EPO. If you are a die-hard, you can start looking for some reason why the physical evidence is not valid, but the "no physical evidence" line is gone.
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Old 10-11-12, 02:49 AM
  #233  
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Originally Posted by Kurt Erlenbach View Post
You know, George, there are people on death row based on less "hard evidence" than USADA presents. Sworn testimony from witnesses is evidence, and courts and juries every day use it to convict people of far more serious crimes than blood doping in bike races. I suggest you read Tyler Hamilton's book. It describes in detail how he, Lance, and all the others avoided testing positive for many years. I'd consider the statements of Lance's former teammates to be far more reliable evidence than negative urine tests.
And so we have all this broohaha and immense cost to pursue an individual over what is essentially a few bike races.

I repeat my earlier assertion that there is far more to this. The DAs got the order wrong in their attempt to prosecute... they simply didn't have enough evidence to proceed.

Now the evidence is supposedly out there for everyone to see, Armstrong is "guilty" by default, and now the DAs have the opportunity to renew their prosecution and the USPS and the Federal Government the opportunity to recover millions of dollars based on the concept of fraud.
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Old 10-11-12, 07:43 AM
  #234  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Unfortunately, the USADA has put Lance in the position that he now has to prove he is innocent
Pure revisionist history. The reality is Armstrong put himself in that position. The normal process would have had him go to arbitration where USADA would have had the burden of proof to show the charges were true. Armstrong declined his right to a hearing and accepted the charges and sanctions. That was purely his choice. He can't complain that having waived his right to a hearing, he never had a fair hearing.
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Old 10-11-12, 08:18 AM
  #235  
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Originally Posted by Kurt Erlenbach View Post
You know, George, there are people on death row based on less "hard evidence" than USADA presents. Sworn testimony from witnesses is evidence, and courts and juries every day use it to convict people of far more serious crimes than blood doping in bike races. I suggest you read Tyler Hamilton's book. It describes in detail how he, Lance, and all the others avoided testing positive for many years. I'd consider the statements of Lance's former teammates to be far more reliable evidence than negative urine tests.
Very true... But, over the past 10 - 15 years, with the advent of DNA testing, we have learned that very many of those on death row are innocent. It is the perpetual and unavoidable problem with verbal evidence -- especially verbal evidence coming form the mouth of those who have reason to lie (such as they will be charged if they don't).

When the government decides to prosecute and convict somebody, there is little that they can do...

RIght, Wrong or otherwise, the USADA is clearly out to get Lance. They have unlimited resources and unlimited funding. If they went after you or I in the same way, we too would be guilty as charged...

The real fact is: we will never know the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth becuase those charged with finding it (the USADA) are not interested in it...
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Old 10-11-12, 08:23 AM
  #236  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
The press reports of the USADA report seems very damning. The report includes new analyses of his blood stored since 1999 and finds evidence of EPO. If you are a die-hard, you can start looking for some reason why the physical evidence is not valid, but the "no physical evidence" line is gone.
Is that like the "bloody glove" that they planted in order to convict OJ?

The USADA is out to get Lance. They will do whatever they have to do (including inventing evidence) to "Get their man"
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Old 10-11-12, 08:27 AM
  #237  
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Originally Posted by asgelle View Post
Pure revisionist history. The reality is Armstrong put himself in that position. The normal process would have had him go to arbitration where USADA would have had the burden of proof to show the charges were true. Armstrong declined his right to a hearing and accepted the charges and sanctions. That was purely his choice. He can't complain that having waived his right to a hearing, he never had a fair hearing.
That sounds good. And it is certainly the USADA's line. But it is not true...

Lance simply gave up fighting against an unbeatable foe. The USADA is clearly out to get him and they have virtually unlimited resources and unlimited funding. NOBODY could defend themselves against that and would be foolish to spend time and money trying...

Say what you will against him, but Lance is not a fool...
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Old 10-11-12, 08:46 AM
  #238  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Is that like the "bloody glove" that they planted in order to convict OJ?

The USADA is out to get Lance. They will do whatever they have to do (including inventing evidence) to "Get their man"
This is a rhetorical comment without content.

Look, none of us who now believe that Lance is guilty are happy about it. He did some great things for the sport, or at least it seemed so at the time. But at this point to ignore the accumulated testimony and evidence is, IMHO, magical thinking.
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Old 10-11-12, 09:12 AM
  #239  
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"The USADA is out to get Lance. They will do whatever they have to do (including inventing evidence) to "Get their man"

Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
This is a rhetorical comment without content.

Look, none of us who now believe that Lance is guilty are happy about it. He did some great things for the sport, or at least it seemed so at the time. But at this point to ignore the accumulated testimony and evidence is, IMHO, magical thinking.
No, I strongly disagree. When a government agency (or one backed by the government) attacks a US citizen, it is no different from a terrorist attack: The vicitms have no way to defend themselves.

Those kind of attacks look good and sell good on today's reality based movies and TV shows. But it is one of the things that the country's founding fathers warned us of: Nobody can defend themselves against a government who is out to get them...
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Old 10-11-12, 09:17 AM
  #240  
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Originally Posted by MinnMan View Post
This is a rhetorical comment without content.

Look, none of us who now believe that Lance is guilty are happy about it. He did some great things for the sport, or at least it seemed so at the time. But at this point to ignore the accumulated testimony and evidence is, IMHO, magical thinking.
The testimony is tainted because those who have given it stand to gain (or not be penalized) if they gave it. The supposed evidence is of questionable validity...

The USADA is out to get Lance. Ethics, morality and "facts" can be invented and manipulated to suit their agenda.

Why would I believe them more than I believe Lance?
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Old 10-11-12, 09:36 AM
  #241  
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It appears to me that everyone posting is correct.

I just wanted to see if my new keyboard was working.
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Old 10-11-12, 09:36 AM
  #242  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Is that like the "bloody glove" that they planted in order to convict OJ?
OK, now it's official. You are delusional.
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Old 10-11-12, 10:09 AM
  #243  
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Old 10-11-12, 10:50 AM
  #244  
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Originally Posted by Rowan View Post
And so we have all this broohaha and immense cost to pursue an individual over what is essentially a few bike races.
A few bike races and several million dollars.
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Old 10-11-12, 10:53 AM
  #245  
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To me, it is inconsistent that those who admitted to doping were allowed to continue with their season, until its end, and then either retire or enjoy the off season and that their suspension would be over by the start of the next season. It seems like they said, "Well ... you admitted doping and we have to give you some type of punishment. How about we do this, as it will have little impact on your career." Why the delay, and why not also a life-time ban? I understand that there had to be some type of incentive for their testimony, but the application of the code is inconsistent between active riders and one who had retired several years earlier. Are the USADA really interested in cleaning up the sport, or is it really a vendetta, as some say?
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Old 10-11-12, 11:40 AM
  #246  
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Old 10-11-12, 06:48 PM
  #247  
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I guess I'm one of the Lance admirers. It's hard to be, but for all of this, I enjoyed watching the TdF in the years he competed. I still think he was a great and gifted athlete.

I never once thought he didn't use PED's. I just assumed that he (and every other rider) gamed the system and it is now very clear that he (and everybody else) did so.

Which makes me wonder that as I read the mountainous pile of damning evidence, why are not the assorted national versions of the USADA (Italy, France. Germany, etc...) also looking into this for EVERY other rider that raced during this period. It's not like this was a separate case of a team breaking the very loose rules. Everybody was using PED's, yet to read all this it seems that it was only LA and the assorted teams he raced on.

Hardly.

Possibly this will be the first crack in the dam and we will see a floodgate opened as other countries take a hard look into this whole friggin mess. Not likely though, the Europeans, who control the sport, are much more pragmatic as to the benefits to be gained from opening up a can of worms for activities that took place as long as 14 years ago.

So it comes back down to an attempt to examine all this admittedly damning evidence and put some retrospective meaning to it all.

Can Lance admit to his past ?. Nope. He cannot open himself to that legal vulnerability.

Did the USDADA act in a manner that is in contradiction to established legal principles ?. Probably and for all that damning evidence, it now becomes somewhat suspect unless you own the moral and ethical high ground and the USADA has not claimed that space. Their motives always seemed suspect, especially as they essentially gave a free pass to Hincapie, Leipheimer, Van de Velde and others, who were allowed to compete this season and are essentially being given the lightest punishment possible (for those still competing). That trouble me.

And then there's that "level playing field" issue, of how do you so completely place what appears to be the entire focus of an investigation onto one athlete (under your limited jurisdiction), when you are aware that the entire peloton was doing the same thing. Does the fact that Armstrong used PED's, alongside probably 50% or more of his fellow riders (and probably something like 100% of all those in the top 20% of competitive riders), now mean that his accomplishments are completely null and void ?. And there's that problem of who's the winner ?, when everybody doped !.

I could easily see a scenario where the UCI simply tells the USADA to go piss up a rope and allow LA's racing results stand, with asterisk as to the circumstances and then come to an accommodation with the International Olympic Committee to do the same for all past awards for suspect athletes and to allow all future professionals to continue competing in future Olympics.

And then let it go, lessons learned.
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Old 10-11-12, 10:09 PM
  #248  
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Originally Posted by GeorgeBMac View Post
Could any of us prove that we didn't take drugs 10 years ago?
Not if we weren't tested. Lance was tested. Extensively. And the samples are still available.

Also, I don't have 26 witnesses under oath, 11 of them former teammates, telling investigators that I cheated and induced and coerced other people to cheat. All those witnesses can't be liars or fools. And guess what, Lance forfeited his opportunity to question their veracity. Nobody forced him to take that position.

Some talk of Lance like some poor, downtrodden citizen just trying to raise his lot in life and play by the rules. We're talking about Lance, Inc., here, with enough power to donate money to the UCI to buy drug-testing equipment. Somebody big enough to the sport, a franchise, whose presence brought publicity and money, that could influence officials to look the other way. Somebody who could tell teammates, you're going to dope or you're not going to ride the Tour de France with me. Lance was flying high and he cheated and he got caught.

We all make the beds that we lie in. Lance made his, too.

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Old 10-12-12, 01:59 AM
  #249  
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat View Post
Not if we weren't tested. Lance was tested. Extensively. And the samples are still available.

Also, I don't have 26 witnesses under oath, 11 of them former teammates, telling investigators that I cheated and induced and coerced other people to cheat. All those witnesses can't be liars or fools. And guess what, Lance forfeited his opportunity to question their veracity. Nobody forced him to take that position.

Some talk of Lance like some poor, downtrodden citizen just trying to raise his lot in life and play by the rules. We're talking about Lance, Inc., here, with enough power to donate money to the UCI to buy drug-testing equipment. Somebody big enough to the sport, a franchise, whose presence brought publicity and money, that could influence officials to look the other way. Somebody who could tell teammates, you're going to dope or you're not going to ride the Tour de France with me. Lance was flying high and he cheated and he got caught.

We all make the beds that we lie in. Lance made his, too.
I don't know about that, but +1 to the rest of it. A lot of interesting writing in Velo (aka Velo News) this month on the Lance situation.
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Old 10-12-12, 07:39 AM
  #250  
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Originally Posted by volosong View Post
To me, it is inconsistent that those who admitted to doping were allowed to continue with their season, until its end, and then either retire or enjoy the off season and that their suspension would be over by the start of the next season. It seems like they said, "Well ... you admitted doping and we have to give you some type of punishment. How about we do this, as it will have little impact on your career." Why the delay, and why not also a life-time ban? I understand that there had to be some type of incentive for their testimony, but the application of the code is inconsistent between active riders and one who had retired several years earlier. Are the USADA really interested in cleaning up the sport, or is it really a vendetta, as some say?
That's exactly what I was thinking. From what I have read (and admittedly I am not as informed as many of you on this forum) the accusers are not being held to the same standard. And what of individual responsibility? It seems as though they are saying that being part of the team forced them to go along with Lance Armstrong's directions.

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