rck

Heck-I don't care if he cheated, I watch college and pro-football.

MinnMan

I'm not sure whether this it tongue in cheek - I'm guessing it is - but yeah, the "shame" of PEDs is nothing compared to a sport that produces unprecedented rates of premature dementia.

daveF

The humor would not be lost on Juan Pelota.

Steve B.

Is there a difference ?

Steve B.

One of the things that has made the USADA go after this as hard as they have is that and according to them, LA "professional-ized" the doping system to the extent that his team completely dominated the TdF for the period. So it was and was not a level playing field. When it's a few teams that has everybody on the program, and then only individual or a few riders on other teams, those "less professional" teams get shut down, even though they may well have some good riders that could challenge. Jonathan Vaughters described the process pretty well.

One of the problems is, LA could very well be telling the truth when he claims that the "systemic" approach was peloton wide and that the Postal/Discovery team methods were widespread. We really only have the USADA's investigation telling is what happened to Armstrong's team. The Euro's have been completely not interested in digging further into their own teams. That troubles me and somewhat makes Armstrong the scapegoat for everybody involved.

daveF

It was widespread, and not only among the professionals. Local amateur racers were using EPO & other PEDs as well. As far as being widespread among the pros as well as other pro sports, don't forget about Eufemio Fuentes. Yes, it was rampant. Postal/Discovery wasn't the only entire team that was doping. Telecom & Liberty Seguros were other examples. I'm sure they weren't in the minority.

The europeans seem to have far fewer disgruntled riders & other staff who decide to speak out. Plus, there are almost entire countries that turn a blind eye and proclaim all of their pros are clean.

fietsbob

I thought it Ironic that Amgen that Makes EPO , sponsored the Tour of California.

Papa Tom

I don't want to start a thread decrying what a horrible, lying person he is or how he has defamed cycling.

I'm just glad that, for the most part, it doesn't seem to matter to a whole lot to us.

jon c. 

Doesn't change my love of riding one iota.

k7baixo

Didn't impact my wallet one bit.

Gravity Aided

I still feel good about bikes and biking , just one rider let things slide . Doesn't affect my position on the bike , or my riding , or why I'm out there in the first place . I was out there riding before him, I'll be out there riding after him. Don't let fame and competition poison your outlook, ride for fun .

MinnMan

This is part of the answer - sports should be about participation, not fandom.

BUT, I really like following the grand tours. And I admit that I hope that want them to be exciting - so for example, I found the tough climbs of the this year's Vuelta thrilling. This is part of the problem - the organizers choose grueling courses because that's what the fans want, but the result is a trial so barbaric that the competitors are driven to get an edge.

Don in Austin

YES!! +1000 F1 racing came to Austin, Texas. Many who come to my auto repair shop know I was involved in stock car racing for over ten years -- I was a 1/4 mile dirt tracker and got a championship in my class in 2008.They ask me what I think about F1 and are sometimes taken aback when I tell them I wouldn't even bother to turn my head to see a bunch of spoiled billionaires with their toys. What was real and exciting to me was racing on a Saturday night dirt track with friends such Abraham Mares who is a warehouse manager at Acme Brick in San Antonio. Although we were competitors, we helped each other out a lot. If I pulled into the pits with a flat during a red flag and there was a chance in hell I might back it out before the track went green, he and his family were ALL OVER my car. If his dad won in super stock, I liked to think my carburetor work contributed. Somebody who rides with me races in master classes and cyclocross. How he does is exciting to me. For several years I have sponsored all-girl banked track rollerderby. The skaters are school teachers, barmaids, slackers, students, state workers, hair dressers etc. Watching one of these girls get a little glory Saturday is exciting to me and they are all my friends.

Actual participation or close involvement with actual participants is my cup of tea. I really don't care what football stars, Jeff Gordon, Lance or any of these spoiled arrogant billionaires do.

Don in Austin

k7baixo

Let me introduce you to my wife's cousin and his kid. This was taken when he beat the local legend back in ... 2009. The local track legend was 29 - Victor was 14 at the time.



(His father is his chief mechanic and mom gets in there also. She's a trained mechanic. "Dad" has an automation company and works for the automobile industry in Brazil.... seems to do a lot of work for VW.)

He progressed to future formula series in Brazil - from about 2010:



Here's his ride from last season - from the Renault 2.0 Eurocup series:



Winter tests in Barcelona - this past early Dec:



He's back in Brazil - trying to stay sharp during the off-season. This was a few weeks ago and that's his mom beside him. I guarantee you that she has grease on her hands. They've been using that same kart for a few years. I guess it's the most economical way to keep him on the track - or, his sponsor doesn't want him in anything larger. Don't know.



I'm sure he's sponsored by some rich, bored billionaire when he's in Europe but the rest comes out of his Dad's pocket. I can't imagine being 16-17-18 and already racing in Europe.

As far as I concerned, he's got a little talent and as you know, the odds of making it to the level of F1 takes more work than you or I can imagine. in fact, I'd suggest that every F1 and NASCAR driver has never had their ride handed to them...it takes a ton of work, talent and a little luck to get past the local dirt or kart track.

I wish him the best and hope we get to see him race in the US.... even if he's sponsored by some bored rich billionaire.

eja_ bottecchia

The DOJ dropped its case because with the evidence they had they could not prove their case, in a court of law, beyond a reasonable doubt.

The USADA is not bound by the same rules of evidence that apply in a regular American court of law, civil or criminal.

There was no conspiracy here, there was no one pulling strings to get the DOJ to drop its case. It was a simple matter of not having admissible evidence to prove their case BRD.

BTW, the DOJ did not share its evidence with the USADA for the simple reason that it is unethical for prosecutors to disclose evidence, to a non-prosecutorial agency, that was gathered during a criminal investigation. The USADA is not a law enforcement agency so they are not legally entitled to access to evidence gathered by the DOJ.

eja_ bottecchia

Even more ironic is the fact that the venture capitalist who invested in LA and was part owner of LA's first team was also the guy who got the capital rolling for AMGEN.

Dudelsack 

I think mean people suck.

Garfield Cat

is there any truth to the statement that the statute of limitations reached its end for criminal but not civil?

Stealthammer

These are by far the most laughable posts I have yet seen in any Armstrong doping thread. So Eric Holder's DoJ dropped another case that they had "cold" and "mysteriously packed its bags and disappeared", and then someone suggests that anyone below the Executive branch, let alone the lowly USADA, has the clout to "ordered them to back off"? Don't make me laugh any harder please!


Lets keep a little context here guys. The corruption and incompetence at the DoJ vastly outscales the Lance Armstrong doping scandal, and to even bring up the DoJ in this discussion is self-serving hyperbole by the anti-doping crowd. In a year or two the public will have better awareness of anti-doping in cycling, and the UCI will begin to adhere to its own rules and stop turning a blind eye to doping, and this whole scandal will fade into history as just an asterisk, just as the baseball doping scandal of many years ago has. But we will still be paying a grave price for the completely systemic corruption of the DoJ that has failed to do its job of enforcing our laws for a decade.

Lets not let this "doping in cycling" scandal have more importance than it deserves in the real world. It is simply a re-evaluation of the trust relationship between a sport and its followers, where the public will benefit by the reduction of collusion between the sport's ruling organizations, sponsers, and participants.

/endP&Rcomment

GeorgeBMac

+1

The last big time jerks the DoJ put in jail where the guys from Enron over 10 years ago. Since then they have put a few little fella's away just to keep up appearances and keep the pay checks rolling.
... Aside from not having a legal case, I suspect they realized the case was going to end up far higher up the food chain than just this small fry from Texas -- so they backed off.

mprelaw

Ask him where he got his law degree while you're at it, and who his evidence professor was.

Artmo 

+1001

David Bierbaum

Humans will be humans no matter where they are or what they do. Any organization where humans are involved will naturally exhibit all the problems that come from our human nature, which is really best suited to small hunter-gatherer groups, and doesn't hold up well in the modern complexity of large organized groups and artificial environments that we've made for ourselves.

*Bierbaum is banned for life, for the crime of philosophizing while under the influence of stupidity*

FrenchFit 

That strikes me as a pretty weird comment, even on this board. I my world LA and his buddies are hardly significant, it's water cooler talk. I'm about as invested in LA as I am in Pete Rose. So, maybe I heard the reports wrong, but what I heard and read was the DoJ had a workable case, going according to plan, insiders said it was a very strong case by doping prosecution standards and then...gone, U.S. Attorney Andre Birotte Jr. says "forget it" leaving its witnesses hanging out there, after 2 years investigating and preparing. Although it sounds a little trite, as a taxpayer I'd like to have a real explanation just what the heck they were up to. The evidence thing doesn't wash, if they didn't have it then why empanel a grandjury?

For me, misconduct by the DoJ is the important story...misconduct by LA is an Oprah story. I guess your point is .... this is the bike forum, stay superficial?

Stealthammer

As a taxpayer I'd like to have a real explanation just what the heck they (Eric Holder's DoJ) were up to for the past ten years regarding their (his) support of/opposition to/enforcing of/prosecution of [undefined to avoid having the thread moved to P&R].

The U.S. DoJ has NO credibility with me whatsoever (yes, less than Lance), and I will accept the truthfulness of Oprah's interview of Lance Armstrong over anything the DoJ has to say, unless Mike Wallace becomes available to do the interview, at which point I will be at the edge of my seat.

Face it. This story is just a small blurp on most people's radar (if that) unless they are cyclists, and even we as cyclists will forget about it for the most part in two to three years, except to look back and be thankful that the UCI's selective acceptance of doping has ended. The only reason Lance is the focus of this process is that he has been the last holdout on coming clean and he has been the most vehement in denying his major role in the corruption.

Whatever future and legacy he and the UCI end up with as the result of his and their participation in this scandal, the end result will be good for cycling, and no one outside of cycling will care one iota.