bruised

Hey all,

Background to my questions - I still class myself as a 'newbie' rider. This is my first real season of riding. I've ridden on and off over the years, very recreational, borderline tourist.

This year I've stepped it up and have over 2000 miles on the clock since May.

All of my miles up until yesterday have been on a mountain bike. Perhaps 85% of those miles have been on the road, the other 15% on gravel/dirt MUPs.

Prior to yesterday I'd never ridden a modern road bike. I haven't had any experience with drops, narrow tires, side-shift integrated levers etc.

I need to purchase a bike(s) that's more suited to the type of riding I seem to be doing. I don't need to get anywhere fast I'd like to arrive in one piece and be able to function (basic motor skills, speech etc).

I'd like to ride some long distance events in 2015, Century Charity rides etc and even do some light touring (3-5 day camping trips). But most of what I do will be putzing around the lanes here in Door County, dodging day-dreaming tourists

To start the ball rolling I went out yesterday and rented a full-blown road bike for the day. Though I haven't really thought seriously about owning a full-out racing bike I wanted to have the experience of riding one. I needed to experience drops, shifters, tires and the many things that a road bike does differently than my 29er MTB. And boy was it different.

I rented a full carbon Trek Domane 4.3 and took it out for a few hours. The weather was atrocious - it rained the whole time and just about hit 40 degrees. I got cold, wet and miserable but I tried to separate the conditions from my general experience with the bike.

I wrote up this whole thing on my blog at A resource for biking and camping around the State of Wisconsin, mountain bikes, touring bikes and more | so I won't go into the detail again as it isn't really needed to support the basic questions I'd like to ask. Which are:

1 - I struggled from around mile 5 with lower backache. I'm 6' 4" and it's not unusual for me to feel my back, but it's been trouble free while riding my MTB with the flat bars. Is this just a case of the nature of the beast or is it likely a fit issue? Is it something that will improve with conditioning or can I expect some discomfort when using drops?

I'm really concerned about this because it impacts heavily on my decision to commit to a road-style bike, or to something else, perhaps a fitness/hybrid.

2 - The ride quality was brutal. My assbones were sore after less than an hour (I rode the bike for 50 miles. I was so cold when I got back that I couldn't grip the pen to sign my credit card receipt - winter clothing is my next order of business ).

Assuming that I can improve the ride somewhat with a better seat, can I still expect this degree of road surface information to be transmitted to my sphincter, or is part of the issue the bike and the carbon frame. Is there a frame type that's better suited to more comfortable riding, and if so, how much difference would it really make?

I have other questions but I think those are the main ones. It would be awesome to hear what others in my age group have to say about general comfort and I thank you in advance for sharing your experiences.

At this moment I'm looking at perhaps a new Cyclocross bike, possibly a Giant Revolt1 - a kind of 'jack of all trades' that would hopefully suit my needs.
I also have a lead on a 2009 Specialized Tricross with beefed up rims and an XL frame, used, for around $700. I think this might be a nice starting point and it's adaptable for my needs. But again, it has drop bars and more of a road frame/geometry. But I'm not so sure either of these bikes is going to work after yesterday's experience with the Trek.

Cheers!

Bruised.

bikemig 

Two things will make a difference. One is a fatter tire run at a little lower pressure. That makes for more stable handling and a more forgiving ride. You're on the right track by looking at cross bikes. Second being able to put your handlebars at the level of the seatpost is less aero but will be more comfortable on longer rides.

There is no agreement on what makes for a more comfortable saddle. That involves trial and error. One of my favorites is a san marco rolls. YMM will almost definitely V from mine.

Also, I'd get a bike with a triple. You can go back and forth all day on the merits of a compact versus a triple but keep this in mind. One thing driving the move to compacts is marketing. It is cheaper for the manufacturer since there are fewer components. A good triple will give you great gears to do most of your riding in and a bail out gear for those tough hills. They do have some tough hills in Door County, right?

This is my comfy all day road bike with a triple and 700 x 32c tires:

fietsbob

If it were as mine is, I roll the bar up so the top ramp was Level.. rather than the bottom of the drops ..

I put in most of my Miles on the top corner of the bars. just sliding my hand forward to Brake.

because I am no longer young and supple so rarely bend way over so much.

& the down angled grip on the drop is perfectly comfortable when I do .

Jinkster

Greetings and welcome...I'm kind of a newbie as well but have learned a lot in a short time thanks to this community.

The few things I can tell you is that a properly fit bike and seat that's properly adjusted can make a day and night difference as far as comfort goes...and then it gets even more comfortable as you realize that "Your Bike Is Your Bike" and that it's absolutely fine and dandy to step out of the race pits and away from professionally suggested settings as while they may serve as a great starting point and something to "work towards"?...we are not "pro racers"...and that it's okay to "Make Your Bike Your Own" with an emphasis on Miles of Comfort rather than Time & Speed...and it was when I adopted that mindset that I began to adjust and pedal my way too...

"Ahhhhhhh....there we go!...That feels great right there!"

For instance...I started out with my bars at the (1 1/2" below the seat) recommendation...and along with my bars being too far of a reach for me?...I found it ridiculously painful and experienced rapid numbing of my hands even riding the bar tops.

But the first place to start?...is the seat fit and height...cause if your butt ain't happy?...the rest of you is miserable. LOL!

My 10 year old Giant OCR3 that sat in the shed for 9+ years just got a make-over...and the first thing that got tackled was getting my sit-bones measured and buying a comfortable, properly dimensioned and fitted seat...



The next thing that got addressed was installing a shorter, angle adjustable steering stem to reduce reach and have the ability to raise my bars....



and viola...my old road bike is now properly fit and comfort adjusted for the type of riding I seek to do and comfortably meet the level of fitness and flexibility my body is currently in...which will all slowly change as the miles go by and me and my butt get more strength and experience but the important part is...I'm comfortable...which in turn?...allows me to retain the desire to get out and ride!

I think many get driven away by thinking that they have to look aero and ride tucked like Lance from day one without realizing that it's a goal to work towards and definitely not a set-up for beginners to start with...and about 3 low mile, sore butt, aching back rides later?...they're done with it....which I feel is a shame because the reasons I love a road bike is because I get to cover a lot of ground with minimal effort and see a lot of things an for bonus points?...I'm hoping to work my way up too "Light Commuting".

Well that's about all I can offer up with my limited knowledge but I'm sure others will be along shortly who have far more experience than I.

Again?...Welcome!...and good luck getting set-up!...L8R, Bill.

jyl

A road bike, properly fitted to you, will be comfortable after you get used to it.

Fitted to you means the bike setup has to respect your limitations. If you are not flexible, you may need the handlebars higher than they were on the rental bike. The reach from saddle to bars can't be too long. The saddle has to suit your behind.

Get used to it means you have to develop the muscles required. A road bike requires more core strength than an upright bike. Not an unreasonable amount, frankly everyone needs to have the requisite core strength because we need it for other things, like staying mobile as we age.

If you want to do longer rides (50-100 miles), and aren't intentionally trying to make it harder or slower for yourself, then you need a road bike.

I would try to not spend a lot of money on your first road bike. Very likely you'll learn more about what you want, and then be on to the second bike. Buy the first one used if you can.

Barrettscv 

+1

I still have road bikes with 23 or 25mm wide tires, but I'm riding my Cyclocross bikes with larger tires more. Having wide tires with a supple ride can really transform the ride. Having a triple allows me to climb any hill without a second thought.

I've had good results with a carbon fiber CX bike as an all purpose sport bike. I am using Pedal Force CX2. It's a great road bike alternative, 98% of the speed but twice the utility. The larger 700x32 tires on the CX2 allow me to enjoy the smoother trails and gravel that are common in the Midwest. I also can just ride across the pot-holed and patched suburban streets without the usual bob-and-weave that is necessary when on a smaller tire.

The added inertia of the wheelset and larger tires does slow acceleration by a small amount, the bike is a little slower to wind up. However the actual overall difference in speed on my usual route is about 2% or about 0.35 mph.

However, the ride quality is exceptional. the bike feels solid and is very responsive, but the tires provide the right amount of suppleness that is very relaxing. If I need to maximize my speed by 2%, I still have a road bike.

The bike will also take fenders and a rear rack.

chasm54

There are a lot of people posting here who are older than you, have more complicated issues with back pain, neck pain etc. but are comfortable on a road bike.

You've been riding a lot of miles. If your ass hurts it has nothing to do with the frame, the drop bars or the material the bike is made from. Either the saddle is wrong for you or is wrongly positioned, or your position on the bike is poor.

Some lower back pain is to be expected when transitioning from an upright posture on a MTB to being more stretched out on a road bike. It passes. Again, however, it is likely to be about your position on the bike. Is the reach right for you? Are the bars at the right height relative to the saddle? I suspect you aren't in a position to answer these questions, and need advice from someone knowledgeable enough to look at you on the bike and make suggestions about how it should be adjusted to fit.

That suspicion is reinforced bybyour reference to ride quality and the transmission of road surface information to your sphincter. There should be no transmission of information to your sphincter, because your sphincter should not be in contact with your bike. One does not sit IN a road saddle, one perches ON it. The only partof you that should be touching it is your sitbones.

Ride quality is also influenced by tyre choice and pressures. But to be honest, I think you are making a comparison between a MTB riding position on a bike that fits you, and a road bike position on a bike that doesn't. It has nothing to do with your age and probably not much to do with you fitness - though on the latter, obviously some period of acclimatisation will be needed.

Gerryattrick

Compared to a suspension mtb any narrow-tyred road bike is going to have a harsh ride initially, and the lower riding position is bound to take some getting used to. The only way round it is getting the bike type/tyre width combination right, getting the fit right, and getting in the miles.

I just failed at the transition because the fit wasn't right, and as a result I didn't enjoy it and didn't get the miles in. But at least I know the reasons and will aim to get a more suitable bike ready for next year.

I think you are right to look at a cross bike which will take wider tyres and can take on some of the off-road riding you like, but remember that a good fit is essential, and don't worry that the bars are not as low as you see racers using.

mud

I ride a Specialized Roubaix, Brooks saddle and a proper bike fit.....Besides the fit & saddle the shallow drop bars have made riding a road bike very pleasurable and pain free......oh yea I'm also 68....

bikemig 

I don't want to start that tired argument over steel versus carbon. I own at this point only steel bikes (including one with a carbon fork) but if I were looking for a comfy bike, I'd take a good hard look at a carbon cross bike like the one Barretscv has in post no. 6 or a carbon gravel bike. Carbon is light (nothing to sneeze at esp. when climbing those rollers in Door county) and its ride characteristics can be dialed in by the manufacturer.

Shallow bars as per post no. 9 are also really helpful as that way you don't have to bend quite as far.

Bandera

1) A 50 mile ride on a new-to-you bike was quite un-wise and excessive, your body indicated that it was not adapted to the position "after less than an hour".
Too much is indeed too much, small wonder you are "bruised".

B) As others have noted a proper Fit trumps everything else: frame material, design even color.
It will take a reasonable program of seat time to adapt to a new machine.

ii) I've ridden Door county, the type of machines that @bikemig and @Barrettscv recommend would be quite suitable for the terrain and more oriented to general purpose use than a pure racing machine.

Here's' a pic of a similar bike that I plooter about on, light enough, comfortable enough and it fits.



-Bandera

bruised

Wow, thanks to everyone who has commented above, some great information here that I'm going to take time over and digest.

There's some key points that are jumping off the page for me - the main one obviously is getting the bike properly fitted, as @Jinkster and others have stressed. The dilemma here is something I didn't highlight in my first post - it's the chicken and the egg scenario in that the fitting comes after the purchase and my concern was/is that the issues I experienced on the Trek might be 'the nature of the beast' and residual issues even after the fit. At which point I would have committed the cash and be stuck with an uncomfortable ride.

BUT - As chasm54 said "Some lower back pain is to be expected when transitioning from an upright posture on a MTB to being more stretched out on a road bike. It passes.", - and also very useful from @jyl - Get used to it means you have to develop the muscles required. A road bike requires more core strength than an upright bike. Not an unreasonable amount, frankly everyone needs to have the requisite core strength because we need it for other things, like staying mobile as we age.

So it seems I can expect that my body will adapt over time to the different riding position and that the discomfort will ease (assuming the bike fits properly), which is key information for me and makes me less hesitant to take the plunge.
@Bandera, you said: 1) A 50 mile ride on a new-to-you bike was quite un-wise and excessive, your body indicated that it was not adapted to the position "after less than an hour". Too much is indeed too much, small wonder you are "bruised". Yes, I can't really disagree. Though I'd set aside the day to acquire certain information and I wasn't about to throw in the towel early because of a sore butt and stiff back. Also, I spent too much time in the drop position early in the ride and I could feel the backache ease a tad as I moved around the bars later in the ride. I noticed that the most comfortable point on the bars was about 1 1/4 inches back from the end stops on top of the bars (sorry if this isn't the correct terminology). So presumably that position could be dialed in as @fletsbob has suggested, perhaps by moving the seat forward or by going to a shorter overhang on the headstock? (terminology alert). So I think it was OK to stick with it. Plus they charged me $50 for the rental!
@bikemig and to others who've commented on tire selection, pressures etc - thanks, that's all good information. I have been running 35/38 road tires on my 29er and have a feel for how that impacts the ride comfort. So I'm wary to pick something that has a rim capable of accommodating wider tires - the Trek did not have this.

I think I'm reading that frame material should be the least significant in terms of dialing in the comfort level and that I shouldn't be too concerned about it. Certainly I appreciated the lightness of the CF frame, but I'm not chasing a couple pounds weight saving at the expense of comfort, that makes little sense to me given my size and weight.

So thanks to all of the great feedback I'm feeling more confident about taking the plunge, with the one remaining issue being whether to buy used, then pay for a fitting at a LBS, or buy new and receive the service as part of the purchase (and all of the other benefits such as warranty and support).

Looking around used I don't see much turn up in the large framer size that I need, but there is one option that I have a lead on, a 2009 Specialized Tricross that looks like this, only with beefed up wheels Specialized Bicycle Components

Can anyone see an issue with the above bike, assuming that I can test-ride it and make sure that any adjustments needed are doable within the constraints of the 61cm frame size? [I'll check out the specific bikes mentioned above @bikemig and @Barrettscv and @mud - thanks for those].

I'm looking forward to the next chapter in my little biking adventure! Thanks for all your help!

Bruised

pec

I might also caution you regarding a cyclocross bike as they are indeed racing bikes with a typically narrow gear range and more aggressive stance. Regarding double vs triple, you might consider a 50/34 double with a cassette range of 12 to 28 or 30; something akin to a BMC granfondo gf02 as reference. This will keep your bike weight sub 20 lbs, with 28c tires, which is desirable as you mention longer distances. Finally, as the others have mentioned, getting a good fit and some miles to acquaint the arse bones with a new saddle is good practice. You might also want to revisit a properly fitted Domane in good weather as a benchmark.

TGT1

I went from a mountain bike fitted with commuter tires last December to a Ti cyclocross bike with a wide range 11-34 36/46 compact. I never rode the OEM saddle, and fitted a Brooks from day 1. Two of the reasons I picked Ti over Carbon were, ruggedness with at the time a 230 lb rider and Ti's reputation for ride quality. (it really is as good as Steel!)

I ended up making the following modifications.
1. Went to a setback seatpost to get the fit right and accommodate the limited adjust-ability of the Brooks fore and aft.
2. moved the spacer stack from top to bottom and flipped the steerer over to get the bars as high as I could. (that required a longer front brake cable)
3. Went to a 34 small ring for the big hills in the San Gabriels and fire roads.

For the first 1000 mi or so I almost always rode on the tops, and could only stay in the drops for a very short period, but as the back has gotten stronger and the gut shrank I ended up moving half of the spacer stack back to the top, ride most of the time stretched out on the hoods now and can stay in the drops if I have to buck a headwind. I'll be moving the rest of the spacer stack soon, but I doubt that I'll ever put the bars all the way down to the aggressive race configuration it came with.

As far as tires, I've run a 22-24 racing set for a century and am now running 42's

The 46T front ring forced me to learn to spin and get my average cadence up where it belongs. That was an unforeseen benefit. My knees are grateful for that.

big john

If you're fine with your position on your 29er then you can try to duplicate that position on a road bike. If you like tha saddle you have you can put the same model on a road bike. Nothing is more personal on a bike than saddle fit.

You're a little taller than I am and I've had trouble finding frames that fit. I've never had a pro fit but I know what I like and I've been riding road bikes for around 30 years.
When I was younger I would run the bars with the top of the bar about 4 inches below the saddle, now that is closer to 1 inch. To get this position I need to run an uncut steer tube. Most steer tubes are 300mm, or 12 inches, and I use an up-angled stem. If I was to buy a used bike with a steer tube that had been cut there's no way I could ride it without some contraption to get the bars high enough.
I'm telling you this because to me, this is more important than the frame size. The next most important thing is the reach, the distance from saddle to bars horizontally. I have frames with a 60cm top tube, or less, with a 90mm stem.
I've had 62, 63, 64, and even a 65 cm frame. Taller is better untill the top tube gets too long.

Ludkeh

Same as poster "MUD" I also ride a Specialized Roubaix, Triple but with a Selle Atomica seat. It's my go to bike for long rides. Fairly up- rite riding position and it really soaks up road vibrations making for a silky ride.

As many of the posters have stated, it's the lack of a good "bike fit" that your experiencing. A professional bike fitting was just the start for me. It took at least one riding season of small incremental tweaking before my bike was just right!

MikeD1

If I had gone from my hybrid to a 50 mile first ride on road bike a few months ago I wouldn't have been able to walk or maybe even crawl, my back would have been so sore. However, given 3-4 months of re-adjusting to a road bike (after not riding one for about 26 years) I did a relatively hard metric century a couple of weeks ago with virtually no back issues at all. It took time, and for me, adding cycling specific stretches and core work as well as recently added two yoga sessions a week. I'm actually now looking to drop my bars another inch or so over the coming months. Working into and at it seemed to be the key to me. I'm now definitely a lot more comfy on either of my road bikes than my upright hybrid. PS, the idea of a cyclocross bike with slightly bigger tires seems good as well.

bruised

Thanks for the advice, pec.
Yeah, now that I've had time to recover from yesterday I do kinda wish the weather had been more favorable. As hard as I tried not to let the bad conditions influence my perspective on the new road-riding experience, I'm sure it played a part. So yes, it would be nice to revisit the Trek Domane under nicer conditions.

On your comment about gearing, the Trek has a 50/34 and 10-speed: 11-32. I didn't need to hit the lowest gear at any point but was surprised to find myself spending quite a bit of time in the highest gear. I would've expected at least another shift up, perhaps two, for a road bike of this nature. But that's not really an issue for where I'm headed with a multi-purpose ride.

But what I'm hearing generally is a double for mostly road use, but preferably a triple if I intend to tour fully loaded. I suppose if I start out the wrong way then this is something that can easily be rectified later.

bruised

@TGT1 - thanks for the info. It's good to hear that you rode mostly on the tops in the beginning. I think that's where I'll be at.

Which brings me to a really dumb question. (Sorry). What gives with the integrated shifters and only having access to the brakes from the drop position? I mean obviously that's tried and tested and is what works. But for a person who spends more time on the tops, is there a better arrangement for levers? In fact, I really didn't care for the sideways shifting much at all. It's nice to have an integrated shift, but they require too much movement to affect the change, particularly shifting up to the high gear on the crank, which was a real pain to do with cold, tired hands.

I'm sure there must be some other more viable arrangement for people like myself who are starting out with drops, and need time to adjust themselves physically to the lower/drop riding position. No biggie…I'll keep searching around and soaking up the info!

bruised

Hello MikeD1. You raise a good point, and others have commented also that I need to 'bed-in' to it. I'm pleased to hear that as it helps remove one of the major concerns I had in my original post. (It's telling me that this thing is doable, just give it time and get properly fitted).

It's interesting today to feel my muscles ache in different places than I'm used to It felt when I was riding that the cranks seemed noticeably longer than on my MTB, though I understand that's not the case - it just felt that way. I seemed to feel my legs through the whole rotation whereas with the MTB I feel it more in my quads.
I was amazed at the pick-up of this thing and how it flew up the hills. I now understand when I was doing my Century rides on the MTB how I was able to keep up with roadies somewhat on the flat, but how/why they just sailed past me on the hills. I thought it was my fitness level but I see now how much of a part the bicycle plays!

As for my mild muscle aches, obviously I've exercised different parts of the muscle and I'm feeling it a little today. I took an hour long walk earlier - no biking. (Actually, I don't have a bike right now but that's a different story ).

qcpmsame 

Great advice in total, and its not dumb to ask about the shifting and brakes. I totally endorse modern integrated Brake-shifter lever units (brifters to some.) Easy to use, even from the tops.
If you drop bar bicycle is properly fitted for you it will not trouble your back unless you have something messed up before you begin. I have 2 lumbar levels fused and plated and I have no problems with back pain what so ever. Get ready for some 'bent people to insist that you have to ride their type of bike to avoid back issues, that just isn't true.

Bill

TGT1

When my bike arrived it had an extra set of brake levers on the tops and my first reaction was, "how the hell am I going to get rid of these?"

Not so!

I think these are a recent development for primarily Cyclocross bikes. Where they really come into their own is commuting or steep dirt where you have to keep your head up, butt back and use full application of the binders.

I do mixed Pavement/dirt rides frequently and have been known to make a "wrong" turn and end up on a single track descent "short cut" from time to time. :-0

If what you pick doesn't have them, you could add them, but expect some flak from the roadie purists.


was surprised to find myself spending quite a bit of time in the highest gear.

If you weren't spinning 90 rpm and going about 30 you shouldn't have been there.

big john

If you don't like the integrated brake and shifter levers you can still get bar-end shifters or even down-tube shifters for some bikes. I suspect as you get used to them you will be happy with them, however.
You should be able to brake from the hoods, as well as the drops. Those added levers in the middle of the bar tops are called "interrupters" and, while I'm no purist or elitest, I think they are a Mickey Mouse solution to a problem that doesn't exist for most of us. My club has 500 members of all levels and I don't think I've seen any of those things in the club.

Many 'cross bikes are going disc brake now which would render the extra levers moot.

TGT1

They certainly ain't "mickey mouse" when descending 4,000 ft vertical of gravel road.

Or riding on the tops when someone squirts out of the fast food drive thru in front of you!

(and that's with discs)

chasm54

This tells me you are riding at too low a cadence, "mashing" rather than spinning. In a 50-11 pedalling at 100 rpm, which is comfortable, not especially fast, you'd be doing 36 mph. How fast do you want to go?

Low cadences, such as you are evidently using, stress the legs and are fatiguing. High cadences spare the legs but place a bigger burden on the cardiovascular system. As you get more aerobically fit the latter doesn't matter too much, and you'll find that spinning at a higher cadence - say 90 rpm - will be better in terms of your being able to ride further, faster. 50-11 is a much bigger gear than Eddy Merckx had when winning five Tours de France, he typically raced on a highest gear of something like a 55-13 or 54-13. He was pretty quick.

The argument about triples and doubles isn't just about range. Yes, if you want to tour fully loaded I'd recommend a triple with something like a 24-tooth small ring. But my preference for a triple isn't range of gears, it is that one can have a big range while keeping a nice tight cassette at the back and avoid big steps between gear ratios. The road bike I ride most, and use for ultralight rather than fully loaded touring, has a 50/39/30 triple with a 12-25 cassette. I spend the vast majority of my time spinning in the middle ring, with nice close gear ratios at the back, and shift at the front much less frequently than I wouod with a compact double. Note that in the 39-12 at 90 rpm I'm going about 24 mph

You don't only have access to the brakes when you are in the drops. Most people spend most of their time riding on the hoods and the brakes can be easily and safely applied from that position if they are correctly adjusted and unless you have unusually small hands. It's sensible to be in the drops when descending or fast cornering, but that's about centre of gravity, not braking.

As for the integrated shifting, it is in my opinion the single biggest improvement in road bike tech in the last forty years, it's superbly convenient. You'll get used to it. More than that, you'll grow to love it.