Is there a "tipping point" in upper body possition?
 

In terms of upper body being upright vs. prone, is there a sort of tipping point?

For the past couple summers I've been on a bike I just cant seem to get into a grove with. My body seems to want to either be more upright OR more prone. Where I am now sort of feels like I'm in between and I'm holding myself in that position. On the straits I'll often either ride with my finger tips touching the bar or my forearms resting on them.

Edit: I'm on an XC-like hybrid (Trek DS).

well, there is definitely a tipping point for fore-aft saddle position. The test that Peter White talks about here LINK is a good one. The bottom line is that a rider generally has to adjust stem length and saddle fore-aft position in order to be comfortable

I've read that excellent article many times. The relation between saddle fore/aft and TT/stem length is pretty clear. The question is, is there an infinite number of positions between full upright and full prone, or is there an area in between which is sort of a dead zone where you cannot get a balance?

I'll add this tho doubtful it helps the OP who is probably a better rider than me. But since the topic is posture related I hope you don't mind. It might help someone else? I read (& I try to follow) that to get the best posture for riding a road bike w drop bars one should ride with their butt sticking out (or, as if you were). For old guys like me I can't straighten my back (prone) that much, but visualizing it this way helps me get my back straighter. It does feel funny at first but then I get used to it. When I ride by store windows I can see that I am not sticking my butt out. I don't ever ride with elbows on bars tho on some of my longest rides I was tempted.

Good article, Thanks!

Hmmm ... interesting question. I've used the Peter White guide unterhausen links to for years; works for me re. setting saddle height and fore/aft to get a 'balanced' position. By that, though, I mean a position -- bum relative to bottom bracket (sorry!) such that if you take your hands off the bars you don't immediately feel like you are falling forward.

I think maybe you are talking about core strength. It's a weak point for many cyclists -- myself included (qualifier: I'm an old man (63)). I don't know if you are riding flat bars or risers (you might be?)? I do, and early in the season and/or if I've neglected my physio regime re. maintaining core strength, I tend to find myself having exactly the problem you define!! I tend to find myself wanting either to 'sink down' onto the bars ("Hmmmm ... I think I need to remove spacers/flip the stem etc.") OR push myself 'up' -- fingertips on the bars/grips just as you describe ("Hmmmm ... I think I'll try a riser bar")! However, as the season progresses and/or I regain some lost (through my own neglect) core strength those tendencies simply seem to stop without my being aware of their having done so. I find myself riding 'normally' either on the grips or on the bar-ends, dropping elbows at times to get more 'aero', etc. without even thinking about it or feeling any strain or need to 'sit up' or 'drop down'.

Just a thought.

Maybe you need to try more hand positions. My high climbing position is bar tops, elbows bent and in. My most common position is hoods, either standard or side grip. I'll use the side grip when going a little faster on the flat. Elbows bent some. Next position down would be still side grip on hoods, forearms close to level, wrists resting on bars. I'll usually scoot back in the saddle for that position. It's pretty much a wash for aero speed between that position and ordinary drops position. Next thing down would be deep in the drops, chin close to stem. So that's four positions at varying upper body inclinations.

It might be that you need more upper body pushing strength i.e. pushups, triceps extensions, dips, dumbbell bench and incline presses, that sort of thing. Or maybe more core strength, i.e. horizontal rows, hyperextensions, back machine, straight back incline sit-ups, that sort of thing. Or maybe try more hand positions. Here are two favorite links - you can ignore the hand pain and pedaling things and just look at position:
http://www.bikeforums.net/road-cycli...l#post12953035
Top photo is standard hoods, bottom two are side grip hoods.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z04uoO7U_SA
Bike setup and position starts ~3:20.

You may have hit it on the nose. When I went to the LSB about it last year thinking it was a frame-size issue, they put me on the trainer, took pics, and said that it was just a posture issue, that I needed to roll my pelvis forward. I tried to do that for the later half of last summer but it was unnatural, or at least my muscles didn't want to go there. :)

While I could look at something with a more upright posture, I really cant afford to sell/buy right now...

That's interesting, and sounds right. Probably a combination of (relatively) weakish core strength and perhaps some flexibility issues -- both can be worked on, in my experience, in a pretty non-aggressive way. Perhaps consult a good (sports) physiotherapist? Are there any good sports medicine clinics in your area? Only takes two or three sessions to get the right set of routines to follow.

I feel like the test that Peter White details really should give you an infinite number of positions. At least it does for me. The thing about having too upright of a position is that you will not involve as many muscles as you do with a position that's more prone.

I think this is exactly right, and it is certainly my understanding of White's article: everyone should, and can, find the 'right' position for how he or she wants to ride, taking into account bike type, riding intentions, physical limitations, and so on. It is also true, as you say, that sitting more 'upright' than about 45 degrees or so (torso angle) does compromise (cycling) muscle recruitment. So, the trick is to find one's own 'sweet spot'.

I think there should only be two basic positions: upright like a dutch bike for flat urban areas or aero position for speed and climbing. The aero position can be aggressive like a professional racer or relaxed like a recreational rider. You have to decide which of the two basic positions you're going for. I think that initially the upright position seems attractive to new riders but over time they realize it isn't as comfortable as they imagined because most of your weight is on the saddle, and the mechanical efficiency isn't great, but now they're limited because of the bike they've chosen and type of bars the bike has. If you have an upright style bike but want to climb hills or mountains then the limitations of the bike become suddenly apparent. If you have an upright bike but live in Amsterdam then you're not likely to have any issues. You can increase the mechanical efficiency of an upright bike by increasing the reach to put you into a more aero position and by swapping the saddle to a narrower one so that more weight is transferred to the pedals. As you increase forward reach you also have to move the saddle backwards a corresponding amount.

There definitely a tipping point to the aero position, or a zone you should be in that corresponds to the strength of your core muscles. If you fall outside that zone by having your bars too low or too high you'll suddenly notice a lack of mechanical efficiency during long climbs for example. For professional racers the zone is lower and more forward and for weaker riders the zone is higher and a bit further backwards.