Zero setback seatpost or smaller frame?
 

So, I have an old Schwinn World Voyageur, 23". I have been riding it for several years. I don't have any serious problems with discomfort and I've taken it on several long rides over the years. Mostly I just use it for commuting, about 10 hilly miles each way. I do have one niggling issue. I actually went to a sports therapist a while ago and paid for a bike fit, not so much because I was having an issue, but because I was considering putting some money into restoring, modifying, improving the bike and I didn't want to spend a lot on it if it wasn't the right size for me. He told me that generally it looked good and the only thing he would change is to move the seat forward some for proper KOPS. I can see how that would help me a little bit. I do feel like I'm reaching a tiny bit when I'm at the forward-most part of my pedal-stroke. I also find myself sliding forwards on the seat a bit. (I've played around with seat angle and have it set with a very slight nose-up at this point. sliding forwards is minimized, but still noticeable.)

I'm also not particularly flexible and I feel like I'm reaching just a tiny bit more than I'd like when I'm on the hoods. I'm most comfortable with my hands resting on the ramps. I very rarely use the drops.

This leads me to think that I'd be a touch more comfortable with a cockpit that was 1 or 2 cm shorter. I would try just sliding the seat forward, but it's already as far forward as it can go on my seat post. I'm wondering if a zero setback seatpost is the way to go. I don't know if that could introduce any other issues with stability or mechanics. Do you think it's worth trying, or do you think the bike is just a hair too big for me?

Not enough information to make any sort of recommendation(s). What is your height? Picture of the bike/ picture of bike with you riding it. Since you are not racing, I would not worry/ get so technical about your fore/ aft seat position. I can say tilting a seat up on a road bike, generally/ eventually problematic. I've been riding road bikes for over forty years and I am failure with terminology, but have never heard of/ know what ramps that you refer to in relation to handlebar terminology???

Thanks for the reply. I understand. I may be able to post some pictures.

I'm a hair over 6'. Inseam is 34.25" with shoes on.

The seat is pretty much level. For a long time, the nose was 1-2 degrees down, now it's maybe 0.5 degree up. It feels better that way. Actually less pressure in the soft tissues because it's easier to stay back with my sit bones on the wider part of the saddle.

My understanding is that the "ramps" are where the handlebar curves from the flat portion to the drop portion, just behind where the brake levers are fastened. So I'm not really uncomfortable riding on the hoods, but I'm slightly more comfortable with my hands resting about an inch behind the hoods. When I'm on the hoods I feel like I'm either leaning forward a little more than I'd like, or I have to straighten my elbows a little more than I'd like.

Like I said, it hasn't been that big a deal. I'm not feeling any persistent knee pain, but I feel like I'm reaching and pushing forward just a little on every downstroke instead of pushing straight down from my knee. I don't know if that's good or bad...

If you want to try moving farther forward on your bike and you can't do it with your current setback seatpost, a zero-setback seatpost would be a pretty reasonable thing to try.

If you still feel like you're reaching for your bars after getting in a more forward position, I'd consider raising the bars or using a shorter stem. Drops are the closest thing that most vintage road bikes have to a handrest position, and they're also the most secure place to brake from. If you're not able to use the drops effectively right now anyway, then bringing the bars higher/closer so that you can use them better won't make you any less aero.

I would say 3 things:

1) If you are aware of your downstroke, your cadence is probably much too low and you are emphasizing the downstroke, OR you are using flat pedals instead of toe clips or clipless. Road bikes have been ridden with toe clips or clipless for over 100 years and the standard road bike geometry and position assume their use. Cadence and foot retention will smooth out your pedal stroke and make your cycling much easier.

2) My advice is always to improve physical fitness rather than modify fit to attempt to accommodate a lack of fitness. Being forced to move too close to your bars because you can't bend at the hips will put more weight on your hands and cause problems with that. So adopt a program of daily stretching and core work to improve your strength and flexibility.

3) If your fitter was emphasizing KOPS over balance, I suggest that his advice is less than stellar. KOPS is a starting point from which to work. Few experienced cyclists pay any attention to it. Pay attention to keeping the weight off your hands rather than the relationship of pedal to knee.

Most of your fit problems will disappear with attention to these 3 points.

This makes a lot of sense. When I am cruising, I try to keep my cadence around 90-100 RPM. I don't notice the "reaching on the downstroke" feeling as much, but I do tend to skootch forward on the saddle as I'm riding and every once in a while have to readjust to push myself back to where my butt is most comfortable. When I'm climbing it's usually at 60-70 RPM and the force of pedaling is holding me back on the saddle a little more, but I tend to notice more that I'm reaching forward with my feet in my pedal stroke. I spend a lot of time in stop and go traffic, too which is similar to the situation when climbing.

I definitely have a a problem with flexibility in my lower back and hamstrings. I've never been very flexible. One of the best things I get out of riding regularly is it has built up my core strength a good bit and it helps a lot with my lower back pain. I know that it wouldn't hurt to work on it more off the bike.

I don't know if it will help, but here are some pics of my position on the bike.

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...43d7037671.jpg

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...eb55a0fb1c.jpg

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...4029e5d5b9.jpg

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...d242afc0d0.jpg

Thanks for the advice!

If you feel like you are reaching and scooting forward on the seat, start here and go from there. You are not stable on the seat. https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...ard-can-it-be/ https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...d-can-it-be-2/ And forget KOP and use this method. https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...or-road-bikes/ These methods will take into account your flexibility. Your seat may be slightly high, causing you to scoot forward. Or your seat may be too far back. Once you go through the steps Steve outlines, you will be more fluid through the pedal stroke and will be stable on the bike. It helped me immensely. Then if you feel too stretched out, you can attack that issue. For me, after feeling the same way on my touring bike, I went through this process, then ended up using a longer stem and lower bars. Once I was stable, it felt better to be stretched out more.

Good luck

tilt the saddle up a bit to resist sliding off?,

Just a quick hit here: I've always read and been under the impression that if you feel the need to scoot forward in the saddle, then the saddle needs to come backwards, and vice-versa.

Good advice in that Hoggs link in post 7. I figure my reach is perfect when, with hands on hood, back straight, and forearms horizontal, my elbows are just in front of and clear my knees as I pedal. So move the saddle back until that's true. Then test your balance as Hoggs recommends.

You shouldn't feel like you are reaching forward with the pedals. Instead, kick the pedal forward as it comes over the top, like you're trying to kick a dog who's on your front wheel. And pull back at the bottom and try to lift most of the weight of your leg on the backstroke. Smooth it up. Get your balance right, then ride for a while that way, trying for a smooth pedal stroke. A new fit always requires some adaptation time. It won't necessarily feel perfect to begin with.

There there is some truth in that, when you are too far forward, as you pedal, the motion you may push yourself forward. If the seat is farther back, the force of pedaling pushes you back on the saddle. This is one reason fixing a reach issue is best accomplished with stem length, and not saddle position.

I've actually looked through some of Steve Hogg's site already. I don't have any problem right now with too much pressure through my shoulders, arms, hands. I feel like I'm able to support my upper body pretty comfortably. I did try to pay a little more attention to my pedal stroke on my way to work today; thinking about what my knee was doing at the bottom of the stroke. I think I'll try lowering the seat a little and see what happens. I was also trying to keep my heel lower. I think I do tend to point my toes down slightly which I can see might tend to push me forward some.

I posted what I did after looking at your pictures, and reading about your issues with the pedal stroke, along with your comments regarding your flexibility. I would go through Steve's process regarding seat height. Once I did that, and got the seat where it needed to be, for me, my issues went away. I not longer scoot forward on the seat, and run a Brooks B17 with the nose almost level. I can spin better, and have power through the stroke.

After reading again, it sounds like you are working through that, given your comment about the back of your knee during at the bottom of the stroke. Unless you are videoing yourself, that will be difficult for you to assess. I did the hill test, going by feel, as he describes. If I felt like I was on a stepper machine during the test, the I lowered the seat, until I felt fluid through the pedal stroke. Good luck. I stubbornly held on to the last small drop in seat height for almost a year, once I finally did it, the issues I was having went away. I had already corrected a few, but I still wasn't as comfortable on the bike and had to tilt the seat up a bit too much to prevent myself from moving forward. Once I got the seat in the right spot, I no longer have to tilt the seat up, and I have no pain. Spinning is much easier.

If the bottom of the stroke is pulling you forward, then you just need to push forward with the same force at the top of the stroke. Bottom is a hammy move, top a quad move, evens out. Quads and hams should cramp at about the same time. :)