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Bike Geometry from an Endurance bike to a Race Bike

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Bike Geometry from an Endurance bike to a Race Bike

Old 02-21-21, 06:02 PM
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Bike Geometry from an Endurance bike to a Race Bike

Looking for a new race bike, already have an endurance bike.

How do you get a race bike when you have an endurance bike that fits already?

For example, I'm 5'9", 32" inseam with reasonable flexibility to touch my toes.

If I have a bike with reach and stack of 373mm and 570mm that fits well, would it make sense to go to a race bike with 390mm reach and 550mm stack for a racier fit?

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Old 02-22-21, 11:12 AM
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What you are calling a race bike probably is an endurance bike too. It's just built to allow you to have a more aggressive or aero position. What your see being called endurance bikes is only because there is no other thing to describe them by. Unless you are talking about a time trial bike, which I would not consider an endurance bike. No one intends for a person to ride 150 miles on a true TT bike.

If you want a more aero position then it will make sense to go to an endurance bike with a more aggressive race fit. I've been more comfortable, especially on longer rides with a bike that is much more aggressive than I ever rode in my life.

As for size, get one that fits. What does the mfr sizing say for the particular models you are interested in? Sizing varies between some models so don't think one number is good for all.
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Old 02-22-21, 11:22 AM
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I'm looking at a 53cm Ritchey Road Logic Disc, going off of a Trek Domane 54cm. Ritchey doesn't particularly have a sizing recommendation, but all the numbers seem to indicate a 53cm for my height, inseam, and other measurements. My "Race" fit isn't going to be professional rider's race fit, obviously, but I'm looking for a bit more aggressive position than the endurance bike. I crunched some numbers and see that I can get the same exact fit on the Road logic vs the Domane by using a flipped 80mm stem at the worst case scenario, just wondering if there's a average set of numbers that people go by for people of average flexibility.
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Old 02-22-21, 12:07 PM
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Originally Posted by Parkyy16
I'm looking at a 53cm Ritchey Road Logic Disc, going off of a Trek Domane 54cm. Ritchey doesn't particularly have a sizing recommendation, but all the numbers seem to indicate a 53cm for my height, inseam, and other measurements. My "Race" fit isn't going to be professional rider's race fit, obviously, but I'm looking for a bit more aggressive position than the endurance bike. I crunched some numbers and see that I can get the same exact fit on the Road logic vs the Domane by using a flipped 80mm stem at the worst case scenario, just wondering if there's a average set of numbers that people go by for people of average flexibility.
Don't know if there is. I'm not a numbers or formula type guy. I just try and see.

While the Ritchey frame will allow you a little more aggressive position, I don't think it's much more. As you go lower on the bar height, you might want a shorter stem than what may have been comfortable when the bars were higher.

Other than that, don't fear the aggressive fits. I've found that aggressive fits are more comfortable. Especially for several hours or longer riding. I had more fit issues when trying to stay more upright on a bike.
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Old 02-22-21, 12:24 PM
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If you're liking the fit on your current bike, are you already using a -17° slammed stem? If not, that would certainly be the first thing to try. If that's not low enough, flip a stem with a larger angle. Trying a few stems would at least give you insight on what fit your might like in another bike, if not eliminate that N+1 urge.
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Old 02-22-21, 12:40 PM
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To me, the endurance bicycle has a much larger head tube and slacker angles. I have an endurance bicycle by accident. I have always had racing models but 3 warranty solutions later, all the manufacturer could offer was an endurance model. I still have a steel frame that I raced and as far as the engine area of the fit, I cannot distinguish any difference. It is in the front end where I am slightly higher than I prefer on the endurance bicycle.

I still ride both. Sometimes I notice the difference, sometimes not.
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Old 02-23-21, 09:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
If you're liking the fit on your current bike, are you already using a -17° slammed stem? If not, that would certainly be the first thing to try. If that's not low enough, flip a stem with a larger angle. Trying a few stems would at least give you insight on what fit your might like in another bike, if not eliminate that N+1 urge.
I actually don't have the bike yet. The bike I'm referring to in the post is a custom order(so I know it will fit well) Breadwinner that will have a very similar geometry numbers to a Trek Domane.

The plan is to have dedicated bikes for long distances and for short spirited rides. The Breadwinner will be the long distance bike, the Ritchey Road Logic for shorter rides.
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Old 03-08-21, 04:41 PM
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Originally Posted by Parkyy16
Looking for a new race bike, already have an endurance bike.

How do you get a race bike when you have an endurance bike that fits already?

For example, I'm 5'9", 32" inseam with reasonable flexibility to touch my toes.

If I have a bike with reach and stack of 373mm and 570mm that fits well, would it make sense to go to a race bike with 390mm reach and 550mm stack for a racier fit?

The main geometry differences between a race bike and an endurance bike (besides reach and stack) will be head tube angle, chainstay length, and wheelbase. Generally speaking, the race bike will have a steeper head tube angle, shorter chainstays and a shorter wheelbase. These geometry differences translate into significant differences in handling between the race bike and the endurance bike.

A race bike needs to be very responsive to steering commands and must be able to corner aggressively. The steeper angle of the head tube, shorter chainstays and the shorter wheelbase all contibute to more nimble handling.

The endurance bike needs to go straight and be comfortable over long distances. The slacker angle of the head tube, longer chainstays and longer wheelbase provide those attributes.

If you know your "ideal" geometry for an endurance bike, that's not a bad starting point for narrowing the field of possibilities for a race bike. However, it's just a starting point. It's not a formula.
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Old 03-14-21, 08:21 PM
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There are so many factors other than reach and stack to consider. Just looking at the numbers is practically useless at determining fit. You gotta play around with the saddle positioning first and then work from there to find an ideal fit.

Find what works best for your needs and work from there. Don't try and adapt to different fits until you know what works best for you.
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Old 03-22-21, 07:14 PM
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Why are you getting the race bike? Do you want a race bike posture, or do you want to duplicate your endurance bike position on the race bike?
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Old 03-22-21, 07:36 PM
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I want the racier position. I'm trying it out with the 90mm stem with 5cm bar drop. Should come out alright, I think. I've had a fit prior to ordering the breadwinner and the fit on the Road Logic is very close to the numbers from the fit. The wheels are coming in this week, just need to bleed the brakes and it'll be good to ride.
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Old 03-23-21, 09:12 PM
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Originally Posted by Parkyy16
I want the racier position. I'm trying it out with the 90mm stem with 5cm bar drop. Should come out alright, I think. I've had a fit prior to ordering the breadwinner and the fit on the Road Logic is very close to the numbers from the fit. The wheels are coming in this week, just need to bleed the brakes and it'll be good to ride.
I don't know what your starting point on the endurance fit is, so . . . good luck. 5 cm of bar drop, especially with a compact handlebar, is hardly radical. unless you have arms like a T-Rex. Just the same, don't be too embarrassed to work into it gradually if necessary.
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Old 03-23-21, 09:43 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
I don't know what your starting point on the endurance fit is, so . . . good luck. 5 cm of bar drop, especially with a compact handlebar, is hardly radical. unless you have arms like a T-Rex. Just the same, don't be too embarrassed to work into it gradually if necessary.
Yeah, not going for a radically racey fit. I ride alone most of the times and I just want to ride in the drops a bit longer and the shorter drops make it easier for me to recover on the top of the hoods and top of the bars. The endurance fit was done using the same reasoning, with only 2cm bar drop. If I don't like it, I still have 30mm of spacers under the stem, so I should be able to lower it quite a bit more.

I'm 175cm tall with 81cm inseam, about identical wingspan, and 44cm shoulder. Overall pretty average for 5'9", maybe slightly on the "long legs, short torso" side of 5'9". Feel free to let me know if it looks incorrect, but I think it should be alright. Geometry Caculations

The Breadwinner's geometry is going to be almost identical to a Trek Domane 54cm. Around 575mm stack, 373mm reach, but with slightly longer chainstays at 430mm for more tire clearance.

Should be okay either way. I left enough spacers under the stem and I can still go shorter on the stem or flip it if needed. I'm not too concerned about things "looking correct", it'd be nice if it worked out that way, but I'd be okay with my bike looking a bit off if it means I can be comfortable.

Until I get the wheels, I'll be here refreshing the USPS tracking page every hour...
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Old 03-24-21, 09:51 AM
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Originally Posted by Parkyy16
Yeah, not going for a radically racey fit. I ride alone most of the times and I just want to ride in the drops a bit longer and the shorter drops make it easier for me to recover on the top of the hoods and top of the bars. The endurance fit was done using the same reasoning, with only 2cm bar drop. If I don't like it, I still have 30mm of spacers under the stem, so I should be able to lower it quite a bit more.

I'm 175cm tall with 81cm inseam, about identical wingspan, and 44cm shoulder. Overall pretty average for 5'9", maybe slightly on the "long legs, short torso" side of 5'9". Feel free to let me know if it looks incorrect, but I think it should be alright. Geometry Caculations
.
Yeah, you;re a bit on the lanky side. The spider monkey build. 54 is your size. As your body learns to flatten the back, you might find yourself looking for a longer stem and easing the saddle back. But ease into it.

And compact bars are the shiznit. My personal favorite is a little longer and deeper than current fashion (so unfashionable, now, that Shimano-Pro discontinued it), but Shimano's new, longer STI hoods make short reach almost a necessity.

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Old 03-24-21, 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by oldbobcat
Yeah, you;re a bit on the lanky side. The spider monkey build. 54 is your size. As your body learns to flatten the back, you might find yourself looking for a longer stem and easing the saddle back. But ease into it.

And compact bars are the shiznit. My personal favorite is a little longer and deeper than current fashion (so unfashionable, now, that Shimano-Pro discontinued it), but Shimano's new, longer STI hoods make short reach almost a necessity.
Yeah, the fitter told me that I'm a bit longer on the legs, but not by too much. The Ritchey Road Logic is a 53cm frame, but with 390mm reach, a bit on the longer side than the endurance bike. I went with narrower 40cm bars on this bike to keep the reach that tiny bit shorter and similar to the endurance bike. I'll keep an eye on how I feel on the bike. I can certainly go lower and longer without changing the "look" of the bike, but I can't go higher and shorter without making it look a bit odd. Not that I mind a positive rise stem, just trying to not have to buy another stem if possible. Hopefully the 90mm 6° stem will work fine flipped for fit if I end up needing it to be shorter and higher.

The wheels came in today, just waiting on the bleed kit to get this rolling. I should be able to go for a test ride tomorrow night, then a long ride over the weekend and start tinkering with the fit if needed.

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Old 03-24-21, 09:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Parkyy16
The wheels came in today, just waiting on the bleed kit to get this rolling. I should be able to go for a test ride tomorrow night, then a long ride over the weekend and start tinkering with the fit if needed.
Enjoy it. Up here I have to wait for the ice to melt off the roads. At 68 I can't risk a stupid fall.
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Old 03-26-21, 12:42 PM
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Got the bike together yesterday and went for a 20 mile spin. Had some bad lower back pain, realized today that I had the saddle set back 10mm further back than it should be. Went for a ride around the block after adjusting and it felt a bit better. I have 25mm of spacers below the stem, feels decent in the drops. I'll continue to tweak the fit slowly. I'm convinced that I can get lower on the bike as I get my core a bit stronger and lose some excess weight(I'd like to lose 15-20lbs) I've gained over the past few years.

On a different note I've been riding fixed for so long, didn't realize how lazy I've gotten with the "pull" part of the pedal stroke. I threw on a spare saddle I had lying around, it was surprisingly very comfortable. Or I was more focused on the lower back pain, time will tell. I think the bike is a bit too black, I'm going to try and snag some tan walls the next time I need to change tires.

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Old 03-26-21, 01:48 PM
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Good going. Enjoy the ride.

Fit is not a one and done thing for some of us. Particularly when you are getting back into riding shape. So don't necessarily ignore things that are comfortable now but present a problem later. Sometimes you just have to change the saddle tilt, bar height or reach as your body gets fitter.

Maybe some don't but I did.
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Old 04-01-21, 01:13 PM
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Sharp bike.
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Old 12-03-23, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by Parkyy16
Got the bike together yesterday and went for a 20 mile spin. Had some bad lower back pain, realized today that I had the saddle set back 10mm further back than it should be. Went for a ride around the block after adjusting and it felt a bit better. I have 25mm of spacers below the stem, feels decent in the drops. I'll continue to tweak the fit slowly. I'm convinced that I can get lower on the bike as I get my core a bit stronger and lose some excess weight(I'd like to lose 15-20lbs) I've gained over the past few years.

On a different note I've been riding fixed for so long, didn't realize how lazy I've gotten with the "pull" part of the pedal stroke. I threw on a spare saddle I had lying around, it was surprisingly very comfortable. Or I was more focused on the lower back pain, time will tell. I think the bike is a bit too black, I'm going to try and snag some tan walls the next time I need to change tires.
Three years later I'm curious to how the Ritchey worked out for you. I'm of similar measurements (173 cm/ 82cm) and considering a size 53 Road Logic. However, it's stack is shorter and about as long as anything else I have (Canyon Grail AL, Canyon Endurace, and Breadwinner B-Road). Unfortunately the bike is not close enough to try out first, so its a bit of a roll of the dice.
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Old 12-03-23, 05:44 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonthelee
Three years later I'm curious to how the Ritchey worked out for you. I'm of similar measurements (173 cm/ 82cm) and considering a size 53 Road Logic. However, it's stack is shorter and about as long as anything else I have (Canyon Grail AL, Canyon Endurace, and Breadwinner B-Road). Unfortunately the bike is not close enough to try out first, so its a bit of a roll of the dice.
Ritchey worked out great. In fact, I prefer the Ritchey by a pretty good margin over the Breadwinner - the ride is smoother on the Ritchey even with 25c at 80psi vs 48c at 40psi tires on the B-Road. I still have both, but I'm probably in the market for another Ritchey(Ascent or Outback) in the next year or two.

I can provide some more fit info if you'd like. I say go for it.
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Old 12-03-23, 10:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Parkyy16
I can provide some more fit info if you'd like. I say go for it.
Wow, that’s pretty high praise. Any additional information would be much appreciated. My BW was designed with a tall R369/S595, so just concerned the Ritchey geo may not be made for me. However, testing the waters this week by commuting on my Grail for a few days with the spacers removed to see if it’s comfortable at R391/S556. Did you keep the same stem or replace the handlebars? Any issues on longer rides (3 hrs +)?
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Old 12-03-23, 10:54 PM
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Originally Posted by jasonthelee
Wow, that’s pretty high praise. Any additional information would be much appreciated. My BW was designed with a tall R369/S595, so just concerned the Ritchey geo may not be made for me. However, testing the waters this week by commuting on my Grail for a few days with the spacers removed to see if it’s comfortable at R391/S556. Did you keep the same stem or replace the handlebars? Any issues on longer rides (3 hrs +)?
I haven't done too many longer rides in a little while. I think the last 3hr+ was done on my Ritchey, I've done a handful on the B-Road. The Ritchey has been more comfortable for me. But I also do 2hr+ rides on my Velo-Orange Neutrino(mini velo) sitting practically straight up, so take my comfort levels with a grain of salt...

Your Breadwinner's pretty tall... Mine is R373/S576(with 73mm bb drop) if my recollection is correct. I have 90mm stem and 44cm bars(Easton EA70, 80mm reach) on the B-Road.
On my Ritchey, it's R390/S551 with a 90mm stem and 40cm bars(Ritchey Butano, 73mm reach). I've pretty much kept my setup the same from initial setup. I've adjusted my seatpost up or down, fore and aft a few times to tweak that side, but the front end has remained the same.

My Soma Smoothie, setup slightly more aggressively, is at R376/S540 with 110mm stem and 40cm Butano bars.

The Soma and the Ritchey feel pretty similar, except the saddle to bar drop is a bit more aggressive on the Soma. I feel most comfortable on the Ritchey out of all three, but I attribute some of the discomfort on my B-Road to the bars. I think the 44cm bars are a bit too wide for long ride comfort for me.

I run Ritchey Butano 40cm, which flair out to around 46cm(center to center) at the bottom of the drops, which are much more comfortable than the bars I have on my B-Road. I've meant to put the Butanos on the B-Road too over the past few years, but I've just been riding it as-is without any particular reason.

Messing around with the reach of the bars got the effective reach(from saddle to the top of hoods) between the B-Road and the Ritchey to be within a few mm for me.

To wrap it all up, if you're comfortable with your B-Road's setup, it might not be possible to duplicate the fit on the Ritchey Road Logic Disc without doing something funky with the stem since it sounds like you might have your bars pretty high up. I'm cool with shorter stems on road bikes(I think down to 50mm should be okay for most people, just takes a few rides to get used to the slightly twitchier steering), but you might get some weird looks from traditional roadies. It also won't look "classically attractive" to have too much of a positive angle on your stem.

If I were in your position, I might look at getting the Ritchey Outback instead and running 35c tires with fenders, even if it means getting another gravel bike.

Hope this helps you a bit.

Last edited by Parkyy16; 12-03-23 at 10:59 PM. Reason: more info
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Old 12-04-23, 01:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Parkyy16
I haven't done too many longer rides in a little while. I think the last 3hr+ was done on my Ritchey, I've done a handful on the B-Road. The Ritchey has been more comfortable for me. But I also do 2hr+ rides on my Velo-Orange Neutrino(mini velo) sitting practically straight up, so take my comfort levels with a grain of salt...

Your Breadwinner's pretty tall... Mine is R373/S576(with 73mm bb drop) if my recollection is correct. I have 90mm stem and 44cm bars(Easton EA70, 80mm reach) on the B-Road.
On my Ritchey, it's R390/S551 with a 90mm stem and 40cm bars(Ritchey Butano, 73mm reach). I've pretty much kept my setup the same from initial setup. I've adjusted my seatpost up or down, fore and aft a few times to tweak that side, but the front end has remained the same.

My Soma Smoothie, setup slightly more aggressively, is at R376/S540 with 110mm stem and 40cm Butano bars.

The Soma and the Ritchey feel pretty similar, except the saddle to bar drop is a bit more aggressive on the Soma. I feel most comfortable on the Ritchey out of all three, but I attribute some of the discomfort on my B-Road to the bars. I think the 44cm bars are a bit too wide for long ride comfort for me.

I run Ritchey Butano 40cm, which flair out to around 46cm(center to center) at the bottom of the drops, which are much more comfortable than the bars I have on my B-Road. I've meant to put the Butanos on the B-Road too over the past few years, but I've just been riding it as-is without any particular reason.

Messing around with the reach of the bars got the effective reach(from saddle to the top of hoods) between the B-Road and the Ritchey to be within a few mm for me.

To wrap it all up, if you're comfortable with your B-Road's setup, it might not be possible to duplicate the fit on the Ritchey Road Logic Disc without doing something funky with the stem since it sounds like you might have your bars pretty high up. I'm cool with shorter stems on road bikes(I think down to 50mm should be okay for most people, just takes a few rides to get used to the slightly twitchier steering), but you might get some weird looks from traditional roadies. It also won't look "classically attractive" to have too much of a positive angle on your stem.

If I were in your position, I might look at getting the Ritchey Outback instead and running 35c tires with fenders, even if it means getting another gravel bike.

Hope this helps you a bit.
Definitely on the tall side for stack. It's a surprising difference considering our height/inseam isn't too far off from each other. Also, my previous bikes I submitted for consideration were a little shorter (Niner Steel/Diverge). Maybe they were just doing me a favor since I was in my mid-40's and didn't look that flexible. Lol. In the end, it's a comfortable bike, but wish it was a little lower and spread out a bit more. Funny you mention bars, I swapped the Easton 42cm out just last week for a 40cm Zipp and it feel better.

The Ritchey was an online posted for a 50th Anniversary rim build with Campy Record groupset for a great price. I really wanted to pull the trigger but there's just no chance of seeing it in person before buying. If anyone happens to be near Berlin, Germany and interested, I'm happy to share the link with you.

Ultimately tonight I decided to pull the trigger on a Fairlight Faran frameset. An important part of my next purchase is building my next bike and that was something I was willing to pass up if I felt confident that the Ritchey would fit well. The Faran's appeal is that I will use it as an everyday winter commuter and it will have the clearance to tackle some bikepacking routes down in France.

Thanks again for your insight, it was helpful in making my decision!
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Old 12-05-23, 04:09 PM
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FWIW, my custom built/fitted Seven Alaris was possibly the best purchase I ever made. I wanted a Ti frame, and I'm a big guy at 76". A 22cm headtube makes it a big bike, and I've nearly 15,000 miles on it now. Not a racer myself, but it has many centuries in it now. I would always recommend a custom build/fit to anyone, for any purpose.
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