StargazeCyclist

I lowered my seat by 3mm. The pedaling was more powerful but I got some minor knee pain at the front and just below the knee cap, and some back pain after the ride (about 30-40km, mainly in the drops). Before that I have done a couple of metric centuries without problem. Should I roll back the change or go another way (I thought my seat was high but I am not very flexible)? Thx


Posing on the bike is hard... anyways I am 167cm tall, 53kg. I ride a Giant TCR, S size, with 165mm crank, 38cm handlebar and ISM saddle.

SapInMyBlood

The ONLY things that hurt are your knees and back? Please tell us your secrets

All joking Aside, your toes on that second photo look hell pointed... That would strain the crap out of my knees

Cyclist0100

Yeah, I agree with cube... we need a photo showing the OP with both feet on pedals in a normal riding position. Based on photos provided (with one foot on ground) your saddle is too high and your center of mass is waaaaaaaaay too far forward. Take a look at post #2 from cubewheels and the location of the rider's center of mass (located just below the scapulta) in relation to the top tube, then go back and look at the your photos in the original post.

It also appears that StargazeCyclist 's handlebars are set up at an angle to allow forearms to rest in a manner that violates UCI rules - LOL . Joking aside, that front end looks to be a good part of your problem. Fix that and your saddle height and you should be in a much better position on the bike.

mack_turtle

I've said this dozens of times: IME perhaps HALF of the reason why cycling hurts me is bike fit. everything else is my body conditioning. most cyclists have poor core strength and tight hamstrings. no amount of perfecting your bike fit is going to help when that is the issue. my lower back pain goes away when i start doing planks, bridges, russian twists, deadlifts, lunges, squats, etc. consistently.

your saddle is likely too high and that handlebar looks HUGE (long reach). start with that.s

Iride01 

I'm not certain why both the OP and the guy in the video are so far forward on their saddle. To me that's wrong for your normal or the majority of your riding. Also not happy with the OP's desire to turn the drop bars into aero bars by putting the STI's so far forward that the forearms can rest on the top of the bars. Saddle height is also impossible to gauge. Does the OP really point toes down so much at the bottom of stroke? Would also be interested in pic with crank forward.

Looking at the position I can only assume is what the OP desires, then I'd think they really want a Time Trial bike and not a Road Bike.

philbob57

I think that knee pain is a classic symptom of the seat being too low. 3 mm seems like a short distance, but if you were at the lower limit before the change, it' could be the proverbial straw.

Carbonfiberboy 

As said above, photos in your normal cycling position would be better. However, please have a look at my bike fitting primer, here: How can I fitting my bike

Your goal is to look like the photo is post 2, although his back could be a little straighter. Note the angle between his upper arms and his back. That's what correct reach looks like.

Do as much of that as you can, then take more photos, one with pedals in line with seat tube, hands on hoods with slight elbow bend, another with pedals horizontal, hands on hoods, forearms horizontal.

Also, your back is hollow. It should be straight.

StargazeCyclist

What if I indeed want a time trial bike? Does it make any difference in fitting? This arrangement is more controllable than an aero bar, and I am certainly not the only person who wants something like this



I moved the seat back 3mm and did 64km yesterday and it was better. There was no back pain and my left knee didn't complain. The poor man's aero bar was great riding into 30km/h head wind. I am moving back more but it is snowing again.

Iride01 

If you have solved your back pain then and anything else that bothers you then you can have any position you care to have with regards to position. Just make certain it's not giving you less control of your bike. Especially when you are with a group.

If you find your back and shoulders bother you on long rides, then it might be that your "poor man's aero bar" as you call them. Unless you have a really narrow spread on the bars, then your upper arms arm bracing your body's side to side motion too much and making your body too ridged at the shoulders. Having your arms close together on real aero bars lets your body sway a little bit and more parts of your body absorb the jolts and bump than just your shoulders. But again, if you don't have any issues, then that's not a concern for you.

You position in your pic using your poor mans aero bars is no more aero than my normal position with STI's in a normal position and not resting on my forearms. I also get the benefit of having four extra pivot points to absorb forces, wrists and elbows. Elbows help a lot to reduce impact forces going into your body.


https://www.specialized.com/us/en/s-...ext=21015-1000


Then get a TT bike. The geometry of a TT bike is for giving you the best power in a very aero position. However a TT bike is typically only used for short rides. Not for longer rides an endurance geometry bike is made for.

jma1st3r

?

Does op have a tendency to lean on his forearm for comfort?

philbob57

ISM saddles look like they have noses but don't. When properly set up, it looks like the rider is far forward while actually riding correctly. IIRC, ISMs could be much shorter than they are, but they added superfluous material at the back to meet UCI requirements. Their docs say that the back 2-3 fingers' width should be visible when riding.

StargazeCyclist

I moved the saddle back 15mm and up 1mm and that eliminated the back and knee pain. And I have some videos of my position shot.

Aero hoods



https://imgsurf.com/image/7AqR7

Drops



https://imgsurf.com/image/7Av3Y

StargazeCyclist

Yes, I rest my forearms on the bar about half of the time.

Iride01 

Leg looks on the verge of being over extended at the bottom of the stroke. But really hard to say with long pants. If it works for you and there aren't any issues then it doesn't matter what any other formulas or wisdom say.

But realize that a five minute ride around a parking lot won't show the issues a 50 mile ride will.

BikeFitPro

Looks like seeing a BikeFit Pro would help. But here are some quick tips.

timtak

Dear Stargaze

I used to ride like you, in a sort of time trial position on a road bike, with forward saddle offset, and a long stem. I would have loved to buy that long road-time-trial hybrid handlebar - brilliant. This style of riding allows you got get down low and spin the pedals behind you, and go along very quickly.

However, the problem for me was that I was almost only using my thigh muscles to push push the pedals around. This meant that after a while (about ten years in my case) my core (butt) muscles became weak. And as my core muscles became weak, they could not keep my knees straight, which made my knees hurt after cycling, and did not strengthen my back either.

So I did two things
1) Core exercises. I particularly recommend exercises that improve rotational strength because the up down (squat like) strength is provided by cycling. Clamshells and reverse clamshells are the standard exercises for improving rotational strenght. I devised a standing version which I highly recommend (though I don't think anyone is doing it!)

2) I moved my saddle back a long way, and changed to a push forwards / pull back style of pedaling such as was popular (especially among the French, but also Lance Armstrong) in the past.
This means
2.1) I am no longer stomping with my weight, so I am never putting my weight into attempting to extend my crank arms, so it is easier on my knees.
2.2) Cycling now exercises my core (butt, back) muscles, providing the strength to keep my knees straight and pain free.

Tim

cyclezen

THAT is some goofy stuff.
so you say you ride 50% of the time on your forearms... what do you do, where do you put your hands the rest of the time? core? glutes? shouolders/neck? climbing? any climbing?
LOL!
Ride On
Yuri

koala logs

How about the brake hoods? The drop section is also flared so access to the drops shouldn't be a problem...

One major problem with this design is having a very short stem to account for the long ramps. This may cause your knees to hit the tops when riding out of the saddle. It might still be very useful for anyone who seldom or never rides out of the saddle.

koala logs

I agree with many things you said about pedaling technique.

However, one factor contributing to OP's back pain is poor back posture. Arching the back down will impose more pressure on the core muscles and also put more load on the arms. No wonder the OP is trying to rest his forearms on the ramps is to help deal with that extra load on the arms.

Sadly, there's plenty of misleading information on the internet concerning back posture while riding a road bike. Many of them say to arch the back down as if you're sitting on your office chair. But riding your road bike isn't the same as sitting on a chair at work. And if you look at the top-seeded Pros, the vast majority of them arch their backs up. A few of them will have their backs more or less straight but not arching down. It may look ugly and make you look like a hunchback but that is the best way to do it to reduce load on the core muscles, spine, and the arms.

OP's saddle might be tilted up as well at the point where he's sitting at. ISM saddle have a slight arch to the back if the nose is kept level. In the OP's picture, the back of the saddle is level which means the mid and nose where the OP is sitting at might be tilted up. Having your sitting point tilted up can aggravate back problems. I think it's also symptom of the OP trying to deal with excess arm pressure due to poor back posture.

timtak

I am not aware that OP's back posture is poor though I would recommend he gets a lot lower. In the second photo he looks like he is using a time trial position on his road bike by adapting it with his special handlebars.

Sir Bradley has his weight on his arms with his back arching down.

Pros ride the Pro-tour mainly in large groups where it does not matter that their chest is facing the wind because they are drafting. Very occasionally they ride in breakaway groups. But when they are riding on their own they look more like Sir Bradley.

I ride almost exclusively on my own. The road bike riders I see on the road ride almost exclusively on their own. We should not be basing our riding style on those who ride in groups of 80 or so cyclists but on solo cyclists.

koala logs

That's actually arching up and that's the correct posture (in aero TT posture)! It greatly contrasts OP's back posture. It seems we have a miscommunication of what arching up or down is. For more upright riding position, the less you need to arch your back up.

The part most critical is the lower back and that is where it needs to be arching up.

The back arched up posture is mainly for unloading the core muscles and the arms, great for long rides. In a lesser extent, it improves aero but the gains are mostly on comfort and avoiding lower back injury this even more important if you're actively recruiting your glutes to pedal. I read it on your previous post.

timtak

Koala

I see what you mean now. Sir Bradley's lower back is arching up and convex, whereas the OP's lower back is very slightly concave, perhaps. I am not sure it matters, but if you have experience with very slightly convex back position and the negative effects it has I defer to you m(._.)m

Tim

koala logs

I like the terminology you're using, less confusion!

I started out with concave back like OP due to factors like excessive reach due to long stem for instance. Eventually I nailed down my bike fit. Reduced reach with shorter stem made the convex lower back posture easier. Note it doesn't compromise aero as long as you didn't change the stack height. Great results for me with reduced reach and adopted convex back posture. It fully unloaded my arms when maintaining tempo effort and also reduced strain on my lower back. It definitely improved comfort. I also improved power output at the same time but can be to other factors like adopting better pedaling technique and better training plan. I also actively recruit my glutes. I agree it's an effective means to avoid knee injury because it helps spread the load between the knees and the hips. Although it may increase load on the hips and the core muscles as well.

I've also ridden with slightly convex back at some point when I'm training to transition between the concave back posture into convex back. The effect is literally in between. Better than concave back, less strain in the core muscles and arms but still more strain than fully convex back. However, there are many riders who are perfectly fine with slightly convex back posture. It wasn't perfect for me but wasn't bad either. If flexibility keeps you from getting into fully convex back posture, then it's a good alternative. If you're having issues with it like increased lower back strain than you may need to try a more upright riding posture or simply do core workouts to improve core strength. It's possible your active recruitment of the glutes is increasing strain on the hips and that will inevitably strain the core muscles as well. In that case, the solution is exercises to improve core strength.

StargazeCyclist

I am aware of your experience and have tests / training accordingly. I prefer spinning 95-105 rpm with easier gear, also thanks to clipping in, I can push in circles (say 12 O'clock to 7 O'clock), using both my quads, hamstrings, glutes, and not really requiring my weight. I have another hybrid bike with a more normal fit and with flat pedals, that actually requires more stomping with my quads.

It has been a year since the OP and I have made more adjustments to my fit (including an even longer stem). I have completed my first century last Saturday and did not have any problem.

timtak

Great!

How long is your stem now?

I used to use a 15cm -45 degree stem. I now use a -45 90mm stem because I have lots of rear offset. I found it difficult to use my glutes much without the rear offset.