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Saddle fit for a woman; problems with numbness

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Saddle fit for a woman; problems with numbness

Old 03-21-21, 05:41 PM
  #1  
sanspm
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Saddle fit for a woman; problems with numbness

I'm looking for some advice on saddle fitting. I've scoured the forums, but of course every body is different. I've gone through so many saddles but still haven't found the one that works for me.

I'm a female in my mid 40's. I mostly ride long distances on a bike with endurance geometry, and I do some triathlons. I'm moderately flexible and I shift around a fair bit, I get out of the saddle a lot and I'm often in the drops. I have done two full bike fits and one saddle-specific fit and have been disappointed by them all. The main issue I face with all saddles is soft tissue pain and numbness, and by soft tissue I mean the lady parts right up front. Giant cut outs seem to literally miss the mark for me; I want more relief in the nose of the saddle

Unfortunately I don't have the option to try out many saddles locally. Most of the LBS around here only allow returns on Specialized saddles and there are only a handful of other brands/models that can be tried out in the shops.

At the bottom is a list of the saddles I've tried and the issues I've had with them. My specific questions are:

1) Given that the best saddle so far has been the Selle SMP TRK, any thoughts on which others I might also like? Or any I should eliminate? I'm considering the Selle SMP Well M1, VT30C, F30C and Avant. I have contacted Selle SMP to ask for advice but got no reply.

2) Other potential considerations: Selle Italia SP-01 TM Superflow (155mm), fizik Tempo Argo R1 (160mm), Bontrager Aeolus (155mm). Thoughts?

3) Flat or curved saddles: besides being able to move forward/backward on a flat saddle and being more fixed in position on a curved saddle, what other differences are there in fit/feel between these types? Why might somebody prefer one type over the other?

4) Are there any fit experts that offer online/email saddle consultations?

I have tried the following for extended periods:
- SMP Selle TRK saddle (160mm) - by far my favourite but could be better; I've used it on my road bike and gravel bike; I'd like a bit more relief on the soft tissue up front (i.e. wider opening in the nose, not the mid part of the saddle)
- Cobb Randonneur (148mm) - tolerable; too firm and hurts the sit bones after long rides; on long rides on the trainer I periodically have to shift all the way back and even hang off the edge for a while to get relief for the soft tissue and when I'm on a rest interval I sit totally upright for relief
- Selle Italia Diva Gelflow L3 (152mm) - ok, but not great; too much soft tissue numbness and I felt there was too much material in the nose; fiddling with angle and setback didn't help
- Specialized Riva - stock saddle (155mm) - ok, but not great
- Specialized Ruby - stock saddle (143mm) - quite uncomfortable

Tried out briefly, but really didn't like:
- Specialized Power Comp with MIMIC (155mm)
- ISM Adamo Road (130mm)
- Specialized Sitero Pro ("one size", undisclosed width)
- PRO Stealth (152mm)
- Fizik Luce (145mm)
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Old 03-21-21, 06:16 PM
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curve saddle i can try and dabble abit.

Curve is supposedly ergonomic, and what that means in biomechanics explanation i dont know exactly. All i know is it frees up my lower back and hips to an extent(tilt forward) . The downside is the centre channel can point up pending how its setup. Therefore, many ergo saddle have opened centre channel, or in your case, the tempo argo line/specialized mimic have the relief pocket.

This is having the pelvis on the widdest part of the saddle.

How do you sit/ride? How long into the ride would these discomfort show up?

Did the fitters look into your saddle pressure? If not, look for one that has the equipment. Also, *few* of these saddle may be wrong if you are on the triathlon bike alot.

Time trial position sits at the nose, need time trial saddle. And dont just swap out saddles, each saddle's height vary slightly and in bike fit, mm difference counts.

Last edited by jma1st3r; 03-22-21 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 03-21-21, 08:23 PM
  #3  
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ISM PN1.1 (also 130mm wide) saddle was uncomfortable for me at first.

But after a month of use, it became the most comfortable saddle I ever had. The unique saddle design requires a period of adaptation and best setup nose level or slightly nose up. I use it on a road bike in long rides 3 to 6 hours.
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Old 03-21-21, 10:22 PM
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I'm now on a Selle Italia SLR Boost Endurance Superflow Saddle Black Size L3. Finally, something which works for me, boxes of saddles later. It's a somewhat flat saddle with a long and wide cutout. Might go far enough north to work for you, but I'm a guy, what do I know. It's firm enough that I don't sink in and don't feel the slot, but not so hard that my butt can't take it. I can sit on it for 2 hours, no problem. Longest ride on it 10 hours. I got it from Deporvillage, somewhat less than list including shipping, but that was a couple years ago.
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Old 03-21-21, 10:39 PM
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A lady I ride with says this is the most comfortable saddle she has...
https://www.roadbikerider.com/selle-...ries-saddle-2/
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Old 03-22-21, 05:24 AM
  #6  
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Originally Posted by sanspm View Post
...- SMP Selle TRK saddle (160mm) - by far my favourite but could be better...
I rode the 160mm SMP TRK for a couple years and ended up in the same boat.."pretty darn good, better than other 160ish-mm saddles I tried, but could be better".

I tried the Romin Evo in the 155mm & 168mm sizes, it's supposed to be well liked by folks needing/preferring a wider saddle, but it didn't work for me..at all.

I ended up in the Brooks camp. I have various types (C17, C17 carved, B17 std, B17 Imperial..carved) In terms of comfort(for me) B17 Imperial is best, followed by B17, then C17 carved. The C17 std is nearly a non-starter.

My girlfriend tried many saddles..ended up with a C15 carved (her sit bones are 108mm..quite narrow..and has had issues in the past with wider saddles hitting here inner thighs and pushing her forward on the saddle(Terry Butterfly, for example)).

In researching saddles for my GF...some women(and men) say the carved version is worse than the std saddles. Not the case for me, and many others, as the carved version is more comfortable than the std. It's more flexible due to the carve.

You might try a B17 Imperial. The suspended leather design may help you. Not an inexpensive saddle, but as with all Brooks saddles..if you buy new or used(in new condition), if it doesn't work for you, you can get nearly all your money back when you sell it. The used Brooks market is very strong..I see used Brooks saddles sell on ebay for nearly as much, and sometimes more, than you can buy them new. Check ebay-completed auctions and compare to new prices on the web. You could easily try a new Brooks or two and resell them for only a $20-$30 loss. Watch Brooks prices on amazon..lately the prices have been moving around daily..often hourly..by $20 or more. Returned saddles are often decent deals too. I recently picked up a returned C15 carved for my GF for $76/free shipping.

..also..check the Brooks site for saddle selection vs riding position. We don't spend much time in the drops, though do tour with 50+ miles a day.

Last edited by fishboat; 03-22-21 at 05:28 AM. Reason: typo
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Old 03-22-21, 08:57 AM
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There's a female forum where they discuss these issues in depth but I forget the name of it. Well, I never can just stop at that, so I googled:
Women's Cycling Discussion Forums
https://www.roadbikereview.com/threa...saddles.78649/

and there are probably more.
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Old 03-22-21, 12:45 PM
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Originally Posted by sanspm View Post
Unfortunately I don't have the option to try out many saddles locally. Most of the LBS around here only allow returns on Specialized saddles and there are only a handful of other brands/models that can be tried out in the shops.
eBay is your friend. You can buy and try saddles for almost nothing.
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Old 03-22-21, 02:19 PM
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I, too, use a Selle SMP TRK. I tried a higher end SMP without luck. I think a critical measurement for SMP is the distance between sitbones and pubic bone, and I think different models of the seats have different measurements from, say, the bottom of the dip to the highest point on the nose. If you look at their patent app, you should see a diagram that shows the softest tissues riding in front of the highest point on the nose. If your bones don't fit the SMP, I don't think it will work.

I have a Brooks Imperial. I've lost a lot of weight in the few years I've used the TRK, and my English frame really needs a Brooks. If it doesn't work, it's off to Craigslist, ebay, or BF, but I'm in no hurry.
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Old 03-22-21, 03:39 PM
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sanspm: Asking for advice on a forum of primarily men regarding a solution to a woman's saddle discomfort seems like a recipe for a whole lot of bad advice . However, if you've been to three fitters with horrible results I can understand. Nevertheless, the bad advice you've been getting from bike fitters is still likely better than what you will receive here. That's not to say that folks don't have good intentions. Most do. Forums just aren't the right "forum" for bike fitting advice. You really need to find a good fitter.

Looking at the resources in your area BC Bike Fit stood out as a good possibility. If you haven't reached out to them as of yet it might be worth a call or an email to see if they can assist.

BC Bike Fit
561 East Keith Rd
North Vancouver, BC V7L 1W3
Phone: 604-988-2770
Email: dave@bcbikefit.com
https://www.bcbikefit.com
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Old 03-22-21, 09:33 PM
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jma1st3r I'm not sure how to answer the question "How do you sit/ride?" I'd say that I probably sit the way an average person sits, right in the middle with neutral pelvic tilt. I start to get discomfort about 30-40 min into a ride on the trainer, and probably closer to 1-2 hours out in the real world but that involves lots of getting out of the saddle (to climb or at lights). One of the fits did use the pressure map, but rather than coming away with some idea of saddles that might work better, we spent all our time on fiddling with the one I have to make it work as well as it can (up and down, forward and aft). With each saddle that I've tried for a while I did make a number of up/down, fore/aft and tilt adjustments since they don't all sit on the rails the same way. What this has shown me is that the saddle itself makes more of a difference in comfort than the fine tuning.

fishboat I think I need a cut out that goes much further forward into the nose than any of the Brooks ones

Carbonfiberboy Thanks, I'll check out those forums you suggested

tomato coupe Unfortunately ebay has changed things to make it easier to calculate shipping which has had the effect of making it more expensive to buy products from the US for shipping to Canada. They now add brokerage and import fees on used products so in many cases it's nearly the same price to buy new. Prior to this change I got all of my cycling electronics via ebay, but not anymore

Cycletography Hahaha! What you say makes sense I was hoping there were enough women on here or people who have tried out a range of the SMP saddles I'm considering to be able to provide some insight. Thanks for searching for local fitters. If I was in Vancouver I'd definitely visit BC Bike Fit, but it's a 3-4 hour trip one way. For now, we're still only allowed "essential" travel but maybe I'll still be searching for a better saddle in a few months time when the restrictions should ease.
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Old 03-23-21, 03:32 AM
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Originally Posted by sanspm View Post
Cycletography Hahaha! What you say makes sense I was hoping there were enough women on here or people who have tried out a range of the SMP saddles I'm considering to be able to provide some insight. Thanks for searching for local fitters. If I was in Vancouver I'd definitely visit BC Bike Fit, but it's a 3-4 hour trip one way. For now, we're still only allowed "essential" travel but maybe I'll still be searching for a better saddle in a few months time when the restrictions should ease.
Ah, too bad BC Bike Fit is so far away. I didn't see any good possibilities that are any closer to Vancouver Island. It sounds like you're getting by with your current saddle for now. Best of luck in you quest for improved saddle comfort. You'll get there!
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Old 03-23-21, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by sanspm View Post
I'm looking for some advice on saddle fitting. I've scoured the forums, but of course every body is different. I've gone through so many saddles but still haven't found the one that works for me.

I'm a female in my mid 40's. I mostly ride long distances on a bike with endurance geometry, and I do some triathlons. I'm moderately flexible and I shift around a fair bit, I get out of the saddle a lot and I'm often in the drops. I have done two full bike fits and one saddle-specific fit and have been disappointed by them all. The main issue I face with all saddles is soft tissue pain and numbness, and by soft tissue I mean the lady parts right up front. Giant cut outs seem to literally miss the mark for me; I want more relief in the nose of the saddle

Unfortunately I don't have the option to try out many saddles locally. Most of the LBS around here only allow returns on Specialized saddles and there are only a handful of other brands/models that can be tried out in the shops.

At the bottom is a list of the saddles I've tried and the issues I've had with them. My specific questions are:

1) Given that the best saddle so far has been the Selle SMP TRK, any thoughts on which others I might also like? Or any I should eliminate? I'm considering the Selle SMP Well M1, VT30C, F30C and Avant. I have contacted Selle SMP to ask for advice but got no reply.

2) Other potential considerations: Selle Italia SP-01 TM Superflow (155mm), fizik Tempo Argo R1 (160mm), Bontrager Aeolus (155mm). Thoughts?

3) Flat or curved saddles: besides being able to move forward/backward on a flat saddle and being more fixed in position on a curved saddle, what other differences are there in fit/feel between these types? Why might somebody prefer one type over the other?

4) Are there any fit experts that offer online/email saddle consultations?

I have tried the following for extended periods:
- SMP Selle TRK saddle (160mm) - by far my favourite but could be better; I've used it on my road bike and gravel bike; I'd like a bit more relief on the soft tissue up front (i.e. wider opening in the nose, not the mid part of the saddle)
- Cobb Randonneur (148mm) - tolerable; too firm and hurts the sit bones after long rides; on long rides on the trainer I periodically have to shift all the way back and even hang off the edge for a while to get relief for the soft tissue and when I'm on a rest interval I sit totally upright for relief
- Selle Italia Diva Gelflow L3 (152mm) - ok, but not great; too much soft tissue numbness and I felt there was too much material in the nose; fiddling with angle and setback didn't help
- Specialized Riva - stock saddle (155mm) - ok, but not great
- Specialized Ruby - stock saddle (143mm) - quite uncomfortable

Tried out briefly, but really didn't like:
- Specialized Power Comp with MIMIC (155mm)
- ISM Adamo Road (130mm)
- Specialized Sitero Pro ("one size", undisclosed width)
- PRO Stealth (152mm)
- Fizik Luce (145mm)
If you have tried so many saddles, and have the same issue, it is not the saddle, it is your bike fit, mist likely, the saddle is too high, possibly too far forward, or too much reach. I'm going to guess the most common issue, saddle slightly too high. Whatever it is, it is not your seat.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...ard-can-it-be/
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Old 03-24-21, 05:07 AM
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Originally Posted by phughes View Post
If you have tried so many saddles, and have the same issue, it is not the saddle, it is your bike fit, mist likely, the saddle is too high, possibly too far forward, or too much reach. I'm going to guess the most common issue, saddle slightly too high. Whatever it is, it is not your seat.

https://www.stevehoggbikefitting.com...ard-can-it-be/
This ^ definitely makes sense. However, I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the bike fitter's she's been to would have at least set the saddle to the correct height. But yes, a saddle that's too high will definitely put pressure on the soft bits.

sanspm: Roughly how much angle do you have in your leg when you're at the bottom of your pedal stroke? I believe the general target angle is about 15 degrees. Unless you have knee issues or a hip impingement issue, lowering the saddle (even if you think it's currently at the correct height) is worth a shot. Sometimes just a couple millimeters can make a big difference.

I'm also curious to know if the bike fitter's you visited looked at your center of mass on the bike. They definitely should have. A center of mass that is too far back or too far forward will impact your weight distribution and thus your engagement with the contact points on the bike (bars, saddle, pedals). There are a lot of variables to a bike fit, and the correct adjustment(s) can sometimes prove to be counter-intuitive. While saddle setup is likely part of your issue (possibly the saddle itself), it is also likely that you have other aspects of your fit needing correction.

I understand that COVID restrictions in your area are a hinderance, but finding (and getting to) a good bike fitter is probably your best solution. In the meantime, continue to experiment with different saddle positions in small increments. Just be sure to mark your prior position in case you need to backtrack.
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Old 03-24-21, 11:09 AM
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Originally Posted by Cycletography View Post
This ^ definitely makes sense. However, I assumed (perhaps wrongly) that the bike fitter's she's been to would have at least set the saddle to the correct height. But yes, a saddle that's too high will definitely put pressure on the soft bits.

.
Doesn't surprise me a bit. I see "fitters" put the seat too high all the time. In the past few years there has seemed to be a push towards too high seat heights. It is maddening. If I fitter works only by formulae, using angles and measurements, and does not assess the rider's flexibility and judge how they interface with the bike in motion, then they will generally always get it wrong.
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Old 03-24-21, 12:31 PM
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Originally Posted by sanspm View Post
tomato coupe Unfortunately ebay has changed things to make it easier to calculate shipping which has had the effect of making it more expensive to buy products from the US for shipping to Canada. They now add brokerage and import fees on used products so in many cases it's nearly the same price to buy new. Prior to this change I got all of my cycling electronics via ebay, but not anymore
No one in Canada sells used saddles on eBay?
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Old 03-25-21, 11:32 PM
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Thanks phughes and Cycletography . I've made a lot of adjustments to the saddle height, fore/aft and tilt in my fittings and on my own. I'm not sure that the fittings I had were necessarily bad, just that the range of saddles they had was quite limited for somebody with wide sit bones. The first fitter didn't offer any other saddles to try, the second fitter had only two options for me (PRO Stealth and Selle Italia Diva), and the third one spent the full hour trying to make my current saddle work and when I asked for other ones to try he said he didn't have anything suitable for me.

Only the SMP Trek has a fairly wide cut out right into the nose and it is also the only curved saddle I've tried. Since it's the most comfortable so far I think I'm on the right track with this one. I'm waffling between the SMP VT30C and the Avant, but still wondering if I should go for a flat (VT30C) or curved (Avant) saddle, not really understanding why somebody would prefer one over the other.

tomato coupe the selection of saddles on ebay in Canada is very limited. It's a much smaller market and people seem to prefer selling locally on other platforms.
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Old 03-26-21, 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted by sanspm View Post
Thanks phughes and Cycletography . I've made a lot of adjustments to the saddle height, fore/aft and tilt in my fittings and on my own. I'm not sure that the fittings I had were necessarily bad, just that the range of saddles they had was quite limited for somebody with wide sit bones. The first fitter didn't offer any other saddles to try, the second fitter had only two options for me (PRO Stealth and Selle Italia Diva), and the third one spent the full hour trying to make my current saddle work and when I asked for other ones to try he said he didn't have anything suitable for me.

Only the SMP Trek has a fairly wide cut out right into the nose and it is also the only curved saddle I've tried. Since it's the most comfortable so far I think I'm on the right track with this one. I'm waffling between the SMP VT30C and the Avant, but still wondering if I should go for a flat (VT30C) or curved (Avant) saddle, not really understanding why somebody would prefer one over the other.

tomato coupe the selection of saddles on ebay in Canada is very limited. It's a much smaller market and people seem to prefer selling locally on other platforms.



https://www.cyclingabout.com/saddle-...touring-seats/

different riding position uses different part of the sit bone

Last edited by jma1st3r; 03-26-21 at 07:49 PM.
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Old 03-26-21, 07:34 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by sanspm View Post

...Only the SMP Trek has a fairly wide cut out right into the nose and it is also the only curved saddle I've tried. Since it's the most comfortable so far I think I'm on the right track with this one...
Passing thought as I monitor your thread...As I mentioned above..I too road the SMP TRK for a couple years. I landed on the TRK by much the same process as you're using now(I'm a retired chemist..analytical approach to most everything). I'm sure the width of the TRK helps and is required for you. The passing thought...with saddles you can only intellectualize the process so far and then you may find more success by using a scatter-gun approach(wide variety of saddle types around 160ish mm wide). If you narrow your view too much at this point, you have an equal, or better, chance of repeating the issues you're having. LOTS of folks, men and women, do very well with a Brooks saddle. By skipping it (B17 and or B17 Imperial) you could very well be intellectualizing yourself out of a comfortable saddle. It wouldn't be hard to find a couple dozen people here on BF that don't know why any particular saddle works for them..they just know it works, it doesn't have to make sense.. Example: The C17 carved works pretty well for me on 50 miles rides(B17std & imperial are better)..the C17std..I can ride for 15-20 miles and I'm done..doesn't work..go figure. I have one bike with a C17std and I continue to ride/make adjustments as it should work for me..we'll see.

If you feel you have to extend the carve forward..and want to spend some money, look to a wide ISM saddle, if they have one.

(Edit:..skip ISM..looks like they have 125-130mm wide and 200+mm tractor seats..odd lineup with nothing in the 150-160mm range??)

Last edited by fishboat; 03-26-21 at 07:42 AM.
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Old 03-26-21, 07:00 PM
  #20  
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https://trigearlab.com/best-triathlon-saddle/

It is and it isnt a saddle problem per se, saddle versatility is. The saddle of interest need to be a mix of race saddle and triathlon saddle.

Last edited by jma1st3r; 03-26-21 at 07:23 PM.
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Old 03-27-21, 06:21 AM
  #21  
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Going to toss in my vote for checking out the Spongy Wonder noseless saddle. I got one over 5 years ago after experiencing numbness from numerous regular and cutout saddles.

Takes about a week to get used to the noseless style, then you don't think about it any more.

Designed and built in Canada! They have testimonials from women on their website.

I have no financial or other interest in the company -- i just think it is a great product that has made a huge difference in my ability to keep riding without causing harm to some fairly desirable nerves.
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Old 03-27-21, 12:54 PM
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BC BikeFit is in North Van. He has an amazing selection of saddle and he has The Saddle Changer to try saddle after saddle under the watchful of of the best bike fitter in in all of Canada
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Old 04-06-21, 11:51 AM
  #23  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
There's a female forum where they discuss these issues in depth but I forget the name of it. Well, I never can just stop at that, so I googled:
Women's Cycling Discussion Forums
https://www.roadbikereview.com/threa...saddles.78649/

and there are probably more.
In the past I thought there is a limited access forum for women, here on Bike Forums. I think you have to

1. Be female, and
2. Have permission or perhaps authorization from a Mod or Administrator.

I would seek out Siu Blue Wind, a female Mod.
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Old 04-14-21, 08:21 PM
  #24  
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Originally Posted by sanspm View Post
jma1st3r I'm not sure how to answer the question "How do you sit/ride?" I'd say that I probably sit the way an average person sits, right in the middle with neutral pelvic tilt. I start to get discomfort about 30-40 min into a ride on the trainer, and probably closer to 1-2 hours out in the real world but that involves lots of getting out of the saddle (to climb or at lights). One of the fits did use the pressure map, but rather than coming away with some idea of saddles that might work better, we spent all our time on fiddling with the one I have to make it work as well as it can (up and down, forward and aft). With each saddle that I've tried for a while I did make a number of up/down, fore/aft and tilt adjustments since they don't all sit on the rails the same way. What this has shown me is that the saddle itself makes more of a difference in comfort than the fine tuning.

fishboat I think I need a cut out that goes much further forward into the nose than any of the Brooks ones

Carbonfiberboy Thanks, I'll check out those forums you suggested
sanspm, if you want to try a saddle with a long cutout, Iíd strongly suggest the Selle Anatomica X or H model. Iím most likely heavier than you and I like the H better than the X. They both have a slot that starts about 4 cm behind the nose and about the same in front of the back edge. The saddles are a supple leather that moves with your body, independently on each side of the slot. One of the ideas behind this is that the two sides work as a pair of hammocks. I have several, and first bought a used one around 2005. Earlier someone posted a link to a review of this saddle, and I pretty strongly agree with it.

First, Mrs. Road Fan swears by her B17 without a cutout. I bought it for myself. She looked at and fell in love, and now if I try to take it back Iím sure Iíll get attacked - defensively of course (lol). So far it is very well broken in for her, so I guess it needs to be hers! The way she sits on it is excellent. Her sit bones are on the leather on the widest part of the saddle. This was achieved by sliding the saddle back in the seat post clamps as far as it will go. This was good for a few years but now her hands feel pressure. We solved that on her other bike with a seat post that allows more rearward motion, so thatís the next step for her on this bike.

We lucked into the best tilt for her for good sit bone support without the kind of pain you have found. It also helped to carefully set her height to allow minimal hip rocking - move the seat post down into the seat tube about 1or 2 mm at a time. If your knees start to hurt in the front or on the side, you have gone a little too low. You can get more advice on that on the Steve Hogg sites, the Peter White Cycles site, and from the writings of Carbonfiberboy. These will also explain the idea and the goal of center of gravity. Itís not exactly what we learned in high school physics.

Iíve used all of those as sources to get my Selle Anatomicas set up, even though none of them specifically mention S-A. What is really different is that the leather top of an S-A will stretch and sag up to a point and then stop. The instructions ask us to adjust the saddle tension to keep the gap about 6 mm at the narrowest point at the same time, the unique feature of the B17 is to apply Proofide input every 6 months, following the Brooks instructions.

Last edited by Road Fan; 04-14-21 at 08:28 PM.
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Old 04-24-21, 06:03 PM
  #25  
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sanspm, I'm a custom frame builder that has made many frames for women in my 45 year career. I'm not ambitious enough (in other words too lazy) to read through all the responses but what I can tell you is that even though you have been to several fitters, I'm suspicious your problem is a result of not having your hands high enough compared to your saddle. For many women if their handlebars are not at least as high as their saddle, that will bother the sensitive areas of their crotch. Oftentimes it has to be even higher. This can be a problem for some women that want to go fast and now have to sit in a more recreational casual upright position rather than a more go-fast aerodynamic and biomechanically efficient position. This more necessary upright position makes finding the right frame more challenging (which of course is why I do what I do).

My 30 something daughter is fit and fast but still uncomfortable if her handlebars are not at least level with her saddle. This may not be the case with you but the percentage of chance that it is, is pretty high.
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