How High is TOO High?
 

I've been riding my '72 Motobecane with a seat-to-bb height @ 28". Seat tube on that measures 23" bb spindle to top of seat tube, 58.5cm.

Arrived at that same dimension after a year's worth of saddle time on my 56cm Tarmac.

Yesterday I put together the alloy '26 Diverge E-5 the UPS driver dropped off on Friday.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...f440f63a99.jpg

I'd ordered a 56cm model then had second thoughts a few days later, changed that to a 54cm. Wheelbase on the Diverge is significantly longer than the Tarmac, pretty close to the MB. Motivation for buying a gravel bike's the not-too-friendly gravel roads that abound here'bouts riding the Tarmac.

Specalized's website tells me I should be putting my seat @ just shy of 29", which seems absurd until I look at how much is left of the seat tube! Top of the mauve tape's the Do Not Pass line.

Pretty obvious I can go higher, right? Should I just go with Specialized tells me & get used to it?

Yeah, go by what you already have as a baseline. to account for crank length difference, just measure the pedal spindle to top of seat on the bike you have now. Of course, if needed, try about 5mm up and down during a shakedown ride

Basing saddle height on your height and shin length seems crazy. Ignore Specialized.

Cranks on MB started at 170mm when I bought it new, stayed there when I went to a x3 'ring set two years ago. Tarmac came with 172.5, I just changed to 170 a few weeks back. The Diverge came with 172.5, so I'm comfortable working with your suggestion.

Agreed, why I thought I'd ask. If I put that seat at 29" my toes will never, ever touch the ground until I'm already falling over.

Put it at 28" a few minutes ago, will work with that for a while as I work with adjusting stem-to-nose and pitch. Thanks both!

You should know what feels comfortable and "right" to you. I wouldn't base it off of the BB to saddle distance alone. As that doesn't include crank length and whether or not you angle your foot as you go through the bottom of your down stroke.

I'd just say most anything a formula or even we tell you is just a starting point for finding out where you want the saddle height. Then you can adjust up or down and see what works for you.

Only if you aren't getting enough power, or still are feeling uncomfortable or getting joint pains or other such, might it be a reason for another height to be suggested. IMO.

Saddle is too high if you are rocking your hips and your legs are very straight on the bottom of the stroke. But if you only do short rides, and you like that feeling and aren't having any pains to tell us about, then I guess you can still ride that if it's what you want.

Saddle height has nothing to do with being able to reach the ground with your feet. You get off the saddle when you want to do that.

I sincerely doubt your current saddle height is correct if that is your criteria.

I agree with everything you're telling me but for the 'nothing' part.

I live in a small town.

Getting out to the more open countryside roads to accrue mileage leaves me negotiating several intersections. Most have stop signs, others have pedestrian crossing lights; precious few have nothing whatsoever. I approach each one with caution, usually with a foot unclipped in anticipation of a brief stop being necessary for cross-traffic.

All of my bikes allow ample clearance for standover height when I'm off the saddle. It's my too-frequent need to halt forward movement that leaves me short of what's apparently a 'proper' saddle height, aside from my dislike of falling over before I can unclip a foot.

Getting off my saddle's not a problem, it's the getting back on while also getting back up to speed that needs practice.

(I've watched this Vimeo video many, many times since I got back into bicycling a couple of years ago. Old habits die hard.)

May I recommend putting your right foot on a curb rather than straining your knees by riding with the saddle too low?

Certainly you may!

And I WOULD if curbs were common where I am, but they're not

(All too often too there's a vehicle parked close enough to the shoulder that getting to a curb can be problematic. Conditions dictate protocols.)

That video I linked to is instructive enough, though the rider isn't using cleats from what I can tell, or 'cages & straps' either for that matter, which is what I started with decades ago but no longer use.

My goal is to gain proficiency in the method shown in the vid then I can move from being 'close enough' in saddle height to have some confidence as I move the saddle higher yet.

No need for a curb. Many, maybe most of us almost never stand over the top tube with both feet on the ground, once we've started a ride. In my case, my left foot usually stays clipped in until I get off the bike at my destination.

That practice makes it easy to mount and dismount as often as necessary during a ride without the need to compromise the ideal saddle height.

I feel more adept at leaving right foot clipped in. It's my left foot that (more often than not) serves as the third point of contact when not moving forward. Not sure why other than habit (I'm right-handed) and that road shoulders on the right often are sketchy.

Thanks for this. Changes my perspective, gives me something to focus on for practice.

so... seat tube length is generally inconsequential (for where you set your saddle height) unless you fall outside the max insertion...
Your saddle height will generally vary very little, going from one bike to another if their frame dims, riding purpose are similar...
But your saddle height will be affected to some extent by your saddle setback, so a change in setback will prolly mean you'll also have a bit diff saddle extension.
54, 56, 58, not sure what that means for your position, you would know that - or take a stab at getting it to where you ride most effectively - for the riding you expect to do on the new bike.
No one can tell you your optimum saddle height/extension - you'll determine that as you ride. Sometimes we are not sure what that might be so 1. we experiment and then decide 2. we ask someone else to show us 3. we use 'numbers' we might get from something like a power meter to help determine what might be a good spot...
ANy one of those might not be 'optimum' - depending what we really want...
WHy not 'start' with the saddle position (Height & setback & tilt) being the same as what you have been using? It's not permanent You can then 'adjust' and see how an adjustment works.

The things I highlighted in your post are NOT the things which are important, I hilighted them because they have NO bearing on what might be your optimum saddle position.
Of course, since you've already had a similar setup in both your prior bikes - that might be a good place to start.
Ride On
Yuri

The things I highlighted in your post are NOT the things which are important, I hilighted them because they have NO bearing on what might be your optimum saddle position.
Of course, since you've already had a similar setup in both your prior bikes - that might be a good place to start./QUOTE]

I bolded that line simply to address your emphasis on what you're telling me isn't important. In my opening post I added those details to give potential readers some information about what my level of hardware experience is and that I'm seeking a potential solution.

I agree with the last part, that what seems to work for me on my other two bikes likely would be a good place to begin with this new one. Bike 'fit' is a concept new to me after all the years I've been riding. The nuances about fit that I've read about here since I fell upon BF two years ago have raised my expectations for what I might yet be capable of on a bike, particularly at my age.

Thanks BTW for your contribution this evening!

What practice? How do you reach the ground with one foot when in the saddle?

Unclip, stop, point your unclipped leg to the side, fall over on that leg, absorb impact with knee, discombobulate, stand there with one foot and the bike leaning to the side and wait for a chance to set off again. If you want to get going again, push off with the leg on the ground and start moving.

Or alterantively if you have long feet and low BB heigh, stand on your toes. That's usually enough for short stops.

I'll usually stay clipped in with both feet if there's a convenient light pole or one of those neat steel beams meant for cyclists to hold onto while waiting for the light to change.

I was describing the practice of sliding forward off the saddle and then planting one foot on the ground while standing over the top tube.

The most important thing for me regarding saddle height, is to minimize the stress on my knees. I keep raising the saddle until I have to rock my hips to reach the pedals at the bottom of the stroke (with foot level), then back the seatpost down a bit so I don't rock my hips, that's bad.

That old advice about your leg being "slightly bent" at the bottom of stroke, I've found is not optimum. Having my legs straighter has worked better for me. But maybe that's just me. Try it, see how it feels.

Ah, I thought you were saying you didn't stand over the top tube.

If my post came across as snarky, then apologies. I can be pragmatic to a fault... In my younger times, I did (as most young do) have some snark on-tap at times. Long since mellowed out to a nice oatmeal stout... LOL!
The qualification of having arrived at a similar saddle position on your previous bikes is good info. The actual saddle height was random.
That Specialized came up with a difference number would not be unusual. Along that line I looked for an online Specialized Saddle adjustment tool - found only reference to the RETUL fitting thing...
So wondering how you got 'their' number?
... If I had a power meter which gave a running graph for an entire ride/session, I would be curious enough to play with saddle height/setback to see the result ...
Of course once the legs/body becomes accustomed to thousands of pedal revs in the small variance that a saddle position gives - getting improved performance might only happen if one was way out of wack from optimum.
other things come to mind... but that would be going down the rabbit hole of 'fitting'...
Ride On
Yuri

In my experience having a straight leg is not ideal for a faster cadence, which is more efficient than a slower one.
I've made the transition from straight leg lower cadence to slightly bent leg higher cadence over that past couple of years and wouldn't go back.
I no longer get out of the saddle, ever. I just spin away and it's so much easier.

Interesting, I shall consider that.

I used to only spin up hills, only in recent years have I learned to standing climb, but my bike miles in the '90s and '00s were all on flats or mild hills. Where I ride now, there are big, semi-long hills.

I said previously that saddle up high enough to cause hip rocking was bad. I would add to that, when I'm sitting climbing and have pain, seemingly some muscle because near the surface, just above my kneecaps, that's an indication my saddle is too low, in addition to pushing too tall a gear, but sometimes I'm in lowest gear and the hill is a bit too steep. In recent years, I've learned to stand climb better, plus put bar ends onto my flat bar for more forward hand and body position. You can't get straighter leg than standing climbing, that reduces stress on my knees when needing to mash. However, the hills are long enough, I run out of wheaties, I can't always stay standing, so try to spin some, and if tire there, or start to feel a calf cramp coming on, I'll get off and walk up, it exercises different muscles and stretches out the calf when walking uphill, that really works well, and can get back on bike after a few minutes without cramp.

I used to love standing and grinding away, but I was often concerned that I'd fold the handlebars by pulling so hard on them. I tried it again, just for fun, on a steep hill a couple of weeks ago and I ran out of wheaties, as you put it, in about 10 seconds, which didn't use to be the case. I can spin away in first gear indefinitely. And I don't mind walking at all, I'm always surprised how far and high you can push a loaded bike in just a few minutes.

In my learning to stand-climb, for me at least, cadence is critical; High cadence, geared too low, low stress on handlebars (critical for my ultra-long folder handlepost) but run out of steam quick; Geared too high, cadence too slow, and I need to yank hard on the bars, and also tire quickly from high muscle forces; I found the key is to use the highest gear where I am able to climb, mostly with just my weight on the pedal for each stroke, the handlebars just stabilizing the bike laterally, without hard pulling. This is very efficient, as leg forces are closer to walking, and lower stress on the bike. Bar-ends, tilted up about 30 degrees, with 45 degree bent ends at the front, I grab there when climbing, hands are higher, and it moves my torso forward to position my hips (with a straighter leg when standing) over the "front" pedal when at its forward (horizontal crank arm) position, so all the force goes down, not any forward, if my hips were further back. Road racers do the same by grabbing the brake hoods (which I never did on my old racer, I hated drop bars, I set mine up for bullhorn bars). I figured it out myself (the cadence part, grabbing the bar more forward is known), I don't know if this is recommended technique somewhere authoritative.

Nah, sensed no snark here. Took a little extra time to parse what you wrote, I got the substance after a third reading.

https://cimg6.ibsrv.net/gimg/bikefor...231a6b6096.jpg
Off one of their Diverge bike pages.

I have one (4iiii) but it's on my Tarmac, crank won't mount to the Diverge. An interesting concept though, one I'll keep in mind.

Posts after the one I've quoted above drift a little off topic but make for interesting reading.

Parallels my experience. I note I find climbing standing easier and more stable on my MB and this Diverge compared to the shorter wheelbased Tarmac. Seat height has little to do with rider position when standing (unless it gets in the way!) but significant for a number of reasons the rest of the time.

Easy way to check saddle height is to use the heel-on-pedal method. Sitting on the bike, rolling along, you should be able to unclip one foot, put your heel on the pedal, and not lose contact with the pedal while pedaling slowly, no pressure, no rocking the pelvis. Adjust the saddle so that this is just barely true: any higher and you do lose contact. This is the most powerful saddle height.