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Building a Brompton UL touring bike - Feedback wanted
Hey guys,
I'm getting a Brompton S6E in a week and I want to modify it for extended touring, a 1+year trip in Asia (Arabic world and Indian subcontinent). I do have plenty of touring experience, did 132 countries so far, but it's the first time I'd tour on a folding bike. I wanted to hear suggestions and discuss some of the ideas I have. The default setup is a S6E with +8% on the gear set for higher speeds, 6 gears, a firm suspension, a Brompton saddle, the extended saddle post, S handlebar, no racks, no mudguards, SON dynamo and SON lighting and Schwalbe Marathon Plus. I will be using Apidura bags, handlebar bag and saddle bag to carry my luggage, as well as a 20L backpack, which will be mostly empty. I use it for electronics/documents, to keep them close to me and safe from vibrations. I also got 1000€ worth of titanium and carbon parts from a Korean company called NOV design. They make custom Brompton parts and I can replace lots of tiny things like the hinges, quick releases, nuts and bolts, the suspension block and chain tensioner. I'm currently looking at bike components that would bring the weight down a bit more. A Selle Italia SLR TEKNO saddle (90gr) or an alternative in the 100-150gr range; for pedals I thought about Crank Brother Eggbeater 11 ti or the magnesium platform pedals that are offered on Brompfication.com (both around 175gr). They also have inner tubes that supposedly save 25gr each, Maxxis Ultralight, which is huge considering that they are at the most important part of the bike: The outer end of the tires. I know Kojaks or similar light tires would save a lot of weight too, but I do like Marathons. I've cycled a lot with them and barely have flats, even in harsher conditions. I'm still trying to decide on a crank-set. It's a bit difficult because I don't have the bike here yet and most crank sets come with 2-3 chain rings... I also saw a titanium seat post that saves 175gr(?) and a telescope seat post that allows the use of a carbon seat post at the upper end. I do not know which one would be better. I'm 188cm, so rather tall. Does anyone have more information on the telescope seat posts? I might get a carbon handlebar so shave some more grams off, and I'm internally debating if I should use bar tape (light) or ErgonGrips (comfort). I used both on previous tours, both were fine. I'm not going to replace hubs, spokes or rims. I was told about microSHIFT smaller/lighter shifters/levers, but I have no idea if they would work with Bromptons gearing and if/how much they'd be lighter. Still trying to figure out where and how to store water too. I was thinking about a Alpkit Stemcell/RevelateDesigns MountainFeedbag on the handlebar (I can just an extended bolt to hold the second velcro strap that usually goes to the handlebar stem), but only gives me 1L so far. I still need to find space for 2L more. My usual places do not work: I don't have a frame triangle with 2 bottle cages. I don't have space under the saddle for a 2x tacx bottle cage holder, because I use the Apidura saddle bag. I don't have space on the front fork for GorillaCages/SalsaAnythingCages because it would interfere with folding. My current idea is just adding a bottlecage to the frame, horizontally and a second one at the handlebar stem, but that would stick out like a sore thumb when folded. Accessories I'll install are a cat-eye speedometer, a tiny handlebar compass and a Garmin GPS. Sorry for so much text. ;) It really is an interesting project for me, trying to fit an ultralight touring setup using frame bags on a bicycle like this. If you are interesting in the rest of my packing list, have a look here http://lighterpack.com/r/f4mykt Cheers, Patrick from WorldBicyclist PS: Just read through all Brompton-related posts of the last 10 pages. And I'm totally getting an Ikea Dimpa bag now. :D |
Lightweight touring brompton is like an oxymoron :thumb:... Very interesting project.
Are you sure you don't want to include a rear rack? With so many bags, do you still think folding is essential during the ride? (I doubt it can stay in park position with all these bags attached.) Might as well get a strong kickstand. |
If you haven't seen this yet, go to this website as they traveled on Bromptons and have a lot of great tips and videos.
Not quite sure why the need for the lightest parts on a Brompton that will be loaded with 20+ kilos of gear. Kind of defeats the purpose. Not sure why you would choose +8% gearing with a loaded bike. I personally would have went with -12%, the hills are going to hurt. S handlebar for touring and at your height? I would think the P bar would have been better or the H bar for the added height. You are choosing a saddle based on weight, forgetting your butt will be on it for hours upon hours. There is a reason people choose Brooks. I don't understand any of your logic but then again I don't have ride your bike and you must have thought this out. Good luck. |
bike.gang.uk: Yeah, it is :) About the rack: This year I cycled through Siberia in winter with a fully and later on bikepacked the silkroad. From Japan to Georgia with frame bags only. I really don't need the rack, next year I have even less/smaller equipment.
It wont fold with the handlebar bag attached, that I know. I have to detach at least one bag for that. The folding I mostly need for flights, since I have many closed land border and islands states I want to visit. Folding the bike is not something I'd be doing daily. I never toured with a kickstand (except my very first touring season 8 years ago), I just lean the bike at something. blakcloud: Thanks for the link. I checked that site out earlier, they even wrote a little ebook on Brompton touring, but it's a very different approach to mine. They are more traditional, with lots of gear, panniers, etc. I do like speed more than they do. I don't have 20+ kilos of gear. It comes down to 12kg of gear atm. I trim both the bike and my gear for weight a lot. +8% because it's not much luggage. On my last trip I had 15kg of luggage, cycled through the Pamir highway at parts, 3300m passes on gravel, and did not have to use the smallest chain-ring up front. Next year I mostly have flatter areas, although I'm really curious how 6 gears will hold up to the challenge. S handlebar is perfect, I test rode the Bromptons at a bikeshop before. It's the only sitting position I really liked, it's closer to the road bike I ride. Road bike saddle will be fine, I rode all my trips (Argentina to Canada, Germany to South Africa, Germany to Japan) with road bike saddles. I don't have issues with my butt. From what you wrote you are more a traditional tourer, heavy and durable bike, lots of luggage, comfort, slow speed. I'm more a guy on a racing bike that happens to carry a tent with him and cycles 150-200km a day, the more the better. It's a different philosophy. But yeah, I'm well aware that this is crazy, which is what I love about it. 2 years ago I did a sahara cross on a carbon road bike, people told me it's the least able bike, but I thought it fit perfectly. ^^ |
Someone sells an aluminum luggage block which can probably support a heavy front bag. I would get that and just pack a camelback and everything in a sturdy bag. All that weight is on the frame not the steering so should handle better.
I have a carbon seatpost on my Dahon and it always slips down even with carbon paste and a sanded surface. I would research if the same problem exists with Bromptons or just stick with a ti post. Litepro and Extralite makes light brake levers that would fit a straight bar but they don't fit well on an M bar. Clavicla is the lightest crank but I would be wary of carbon cranks on a world tourer so would look at Hollowgram or NextSL Cinch cranks. |
I would give more thought to improving the bar postion or adding gears on the Brompton. I dont tour and I recognise that you have alot of experience that have formed your priorities. I would look at fitting bullbars about 45 cm or wider as they fold flat on a brompton either side of the front wheel. With a modified 8 speed afline you can lace that to a road race brifter callled a versa. Just for information if you dont know this is available.
You can fit a carbon crack but you need to get the right width bottom bracket as it wont fold if its the wrong width. Cant remember to size at moment. Did you consider other set ups like 8 speed or 5 speed or a front mech. I choose proper gear spread and increments over weight saving anyday. Would like to see photos of your set ups when done. Thank you |
ttakata73: Thanks, that's very helpful.
The extralite levers look pretty good and should fit my S bar. :) Bags I'll stick with Apidura, I'm committed due to sponsorship reasons. bhkyte:d Sorry, just saw your post now. I do like bullhorn bars, but I don't have the brompton yet. I unfortunately dont have that much time for everything, so trying out different brackets, cranks and gearings is a bit difficult. I have not test-ridden the 6 gear at all yet. sure I'll post pictures once it's done. |
Originally Posted by blakcloud
(Post 18300753)
If you haven't seen this yet, go to this website as they traveled on Bromptons and have a lot of great tips and videos.
Not quite sure why the need for the lightest parts on a Brompton that will be loaded with 20+ kilos of gear. Kind of defeats the purpose. Not sure why you would choose +8% gearing with a loaded bike. I personally would have went with -12%, the hills are going to hurt. S handlebar for touring and at your height? I would think the P bar would have been better or the H bar for the added height. You are choosing a saddle based on weight, forgetting your butt will be on it for hours upon hours. There is a reason people choose Brooks. I don't understand any of your logic but then again I don't have ride your bike and you must have thought this out. Good luck. I like the way the PathLessPeddle folks attached a full size bag to the rack that carries almost all the weight. They started by using a saddle bag but someone must have told them this would put too much strain on the seat post and crack the frame. Using Russ's method, there's no need to carry a back pack at all. A much better solution. https://youtu.be/4c76T3g5wwY |
Much heavier solution. Their backpack looks like it weights more empty than my backpack + items in it, which would be 2.25kg. And they need a rack.
"but someone must have told them this would put too much strain on the seat post and crack the frame." That's an interesting point, do they actually say that at some point or is that an assumption? Sorry if I sound a bit presumptuous, but I was looking for advice on saving weight/components that fit, not about making things sturdier/more comfortable. |
Bring A Lot of Money.. stay in Hotels and B&B and you dont have to carry Much.
Brompton Touring Bag up front, and maybe a British Saddle bag will carry all You Need . S 6R_X [Ti fork & Rear End] would have been a better choice .. rear rack & Mudguards . Heinz Stuke is on a Brompton Now.. after 30 years on the road he is sponsored for a Bike from them. |
The areas won't always have hotels/hostels. I'll tour Lebanon, Kuwait, Iraq, Qatar, Bahrain, UAE, Oman, Yemen, Saudi-Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Bhutan, Bangladesch, Sri Lanka, Seychelles, Maledives and Philippines next year. Probably 1-3 of those I have to cancel due to visa/safety issues. I can't afford the hotels in some of them, others have lots of remote areas. ;)
Brompton is sponsoring me, I get the bike directly from them. Only reason it's not the TI version is time, it would have taken ~2 months longer to get it due to them producint the steel-only Black Edition atm. I might be able to get the 2 TI sections send to me on the road, I'll add them myself in that case. |
Check out the Facebook pages of Bromtpon clubs from Korea and Singapore.
Those folks are obsessed with getting the Brompton's weight as low as possible. Some are in the 7kg. range. Be careful when swapping parts to make them lighter. There have been reports of ti posts breaking(London Brompton Club) to carbon handle bars cracking(Brompton Club of the Philippines). One company had a recall for their light hinge shells(NOV Design?) Is your bike a X/superlight model? Most of the modifications I've done are to make my bike lighter to carry. Although some ti bolts are nicer to look at than the rusting Brompton steel bolts; brake pad holder, handle bar, upper stem catch, etc. Most of these swaps were done 2 years ago. Some shots with weight comparisons on my Flikr account: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7631/...e4f7f75ce5.jpg2013 Brompton S6L-X by 1nterceptor, on Flickr 1. Brompfication ti post, regular/standard lenght(almost have the weight saved over original) 2. Brompfication seat clamp quick release 3. Brompfication front wheel skewer 4. Ti Parts Workshop suspension ti bolt 5. Ti Parts Workshop 6 speed Hub Nut set 6. NOV Design carbon hinge clamp lever/ ti bolt 7. NOV Design carbon stop disc/ ti bolt 8. NOV Design ti rear clip 9. Shimano Dura Ace chain ring/wheel 10 speed 10. Shimano Ultegra chain 10 speed 11. Shimano Dura Ace magnesium brake pad holders, ti bolt 12. Xpedo M Force 8 ti pedals(half the weight of original) 13. Selle Italia SLR carbon seat with ti rails(half the weight of original) 14. Birdy green suspension block 15. etc., etc. Some weight comparos in my video; tires, X/superlight wheels: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8szh...6zPoymgKaIoDLA |
I personally wouldn't go for an inline seat post as I like the forward offset that the pentaclip provides. So if I bought a ti one (well worth it as the steel post is a clunker) I'd get a fluted type. I did everything I could on a budget to lighten my Brompton: seat post is the first priority, then the headset and chainset. After that it's diminishing returns, shaving a few grams here and there which can add up to maybe 100 or so. My Brompton had SA gear cable which is coiled like brake cable: switching that for standard gear cable saved 20 or 30 grams(!).
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The OP doesn't seem to be on a tight budget having already spent 1,000 Euros on parts.
The main focus seems to be to lighten the total weight of the B'ton. Lighter parts make carrying the bike easier. But in regards to parts that are spinning; you can also go fast(er) by decreasing rotational mass. It may not matter on a 1 mile ride to the train station; but on long and/or hilly rides - it might be worth it to some folks. I ride my Brompton on a lot of charity rides; Tour de Cure, NY Bike MS, NYC Century. Some of these rides are quite hilly and some are over 100 miles/160 kms. Swapping to lighter parts have helped me on these trips. Schwalbe Kojaks(folding), sometimes Primo Comets, ti pedals, Ultegra chain, etc. Here I'm passing a bunch of folks on a slight uphill on the Brooklyn Queens Express: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmFU...6zPoymgKaIoDLA Here I'm passing a few roadies on a steep section of Walnut st.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ROYH...6zPoymgKaIoDLA |
Interceptor: That's super helpfup. I actually got free pick from the guys over at NOV design, they are among my sponsors. They did recommend me NOT to take their ti rear hinge due to weight reasons.
I'm using a normal steel Brompton because they are currently only producing the special Black Edition and I would have to wait forever for the TI version. I might be able to get these two parts (end part of the frame and fork) send to me once I'm on the road. It's really good to know that Shimano Dura Ace fits. I had a hard time figuring out if that would work or not, thanks to your post it's looking good. :) The Brompfication Ti seat post I'd have to pay myself, sponsoring is impossible because that would clash with the NOV design sponsoring. I wrote them a couple of days ago about delivery times to Germany but have heard nothing back. :/ I'd take their seat post and maxxis tubes for another ~300gr of savings, but first Brompfication would have to tell me how long deliver takes ^^ Two questions for you: Do you know any other place to get the Maxxis tubes from? And why did you decide to use a "Birdy green suspension block", which I assume is from the B&M Birdy folding bike. I have the metal block from NOV design here, waiting to be installed. Edit: About your second post: I try not to spend too much money on it, I just happen to have multiple companies that supply me with free gear, among them Brompton and NOV design themselves. As much as I like reduced weight on rotating parts, I kinda want to hold on to the Marathon Plus, because I tour in strange countries and can't get replacement tires in 16" easily; and the obvious puncture resistance. chagzuki: Which headset do you use and do you by any chance know how much the original Brompton headset weights? And what is a SA gear cable? Sturmy Archer? This thing? http://www.sheldonbrown.com/images/indicatorspindle.jpg Sorry if the question is stupid, but I don't actually have the Brompton here yet, it's going to be delivered next week. |
Interesting how various posters have recommended lower gears, hotel sleeping etc etc to such a seasoned tourer.
How much time do you have? There are Ti seatposts available other than Bromfication, see ebay under Rockbros brand. You could order a plain Ti tube from titanproduct.com. Shim it up and put your carbon 27.2mm post inside. Clamp, done. Ti Handlebars too. |
I've been touring almost full time for the last 8 years, I have a fair idea of what I need/like. Always strange when people try to recommend Brooks saddles to me. ^^
Time till I leave is 3 weeks. Any delivery that takes longer I'd have to either get send to me on road or send to my girlfriend in Germany who will visit me in Dubai for New Years. Which means that I can get anything locally, anything from German retailers and the EU, but ordering outside of the EU would probably take too much time. I should have gotten the bike a bit earlier, but they got delayed. :/ Frankenstein a carbon seat post into a titanium seat post? Considering that I already have the extended height PLUS the weight of the saddle bag, that might be a bit risky. Mostly because I haven't build something like this, I'd hate to make a mistake that I couldn't correct once I start touring. The brompton handlbars are surprisingly lightweight with 134gr (as far as I could find out online). I can get 30gr or so there by using carbon. The titanium handlbar by Brompfiction is actually 10gr heavier than the standard alu one. |
Dura Ace ring is a direct bolt-on option on the new B models(2013 and up); 130 BCD.
Loosing the pants protector/guard also saves weight. I did some weight comparos here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5AT6...IoDLA&index=16 Don't know of any other site to order Maxxis ultra light tubes. Read somewhere that the owner(Peter) got them from Japan. I got some from Brompfication but haven't tried them out yet. Waiting on a front wheel getting rebuilt - used 2013 superlight hub, titanium spokes and Velocity Aeroheat rim. Did I mention both rim and Maxxis tube are presta and not schrader that B'ton uses? https://farm1.staticflickr.com/535/1...255e071ac7.jpgMaxxis Ultralight Inner Tube 16-18 Presta by 1nterceptor, on Flickr Birdy green block is firmer than B'ton's firm block; for me less energy wasted. Slight weight decrease: https://farm8.staticflickr.com/7494/...336135ca35.jpgBirdy vs Brompton Block by 1nterceptor, on Flickr Kojaks don't flat easily while new; as the miles add up(and the tire gets thinner) - flatting gets easier. Especially with glass. I'm assuming you'll be carrying spare tires? Folding Kojaks are a nice option. Some items I have in the closet but haven't gotten around to installing/trying out: 1. Ti Parts Workshop ti bottom bracket 2. Sram Red brake shoe/pad holder, ti bolts 3. generic carbon handlebars; remember my warning about unkown brands :) 4. Aeroheat rim w/ ti spokes, see above 5. Jagwire alligator type cable housing 6. KMC superlight 10 speed chain More parts you may want to check into: 1. carbon seatpost 2. carbon cranks(older square taper Campy Record) |
Originally Posted by worldbicyclist
(Post 18301373)
"[COLOR=#000000]but someone must have told them this would put too much strain on the seat post and crack the frame." That's an interesting point, do they actually say that at some point or is that an assumption?
http://www.cyclechat.net/threads/is-...repair.157120/ |
worldbicyclist, why Brompton in particular? I'm thinking, If I have to go on a tour like yours I would order a custom titanium Mini Velo frame with S&S couplers for 406 wheels.
Thanks. |
Interceptor: Oh, it's just the chain ring. I thought it's the entire crank + bottom bracket. But WOW, 89gr to 33gr is quite a change for the chain ring alone.
For the suspension block I'm using this one: http://novdesign.co.kr/racing-shock-4/ Kojaks vs Marathons is a no brainer for me. On that bad roads and highways (burst truck tires wires) I'm going to rely on the flatproof part of the Marathons way too much. And they last up to 10k kilometers. I'm not carrying spare tires. Dahon.Steve: Thanks for the link. I'll write the guys at Brompton and ask about it. shrooms: Mostly for fun. Brompton is the first name that comes to mind when talking about folding bikes, it's the most iconic. At least here in Europe. I try to tour on a different type of bike every year. I had a hardtail MTB, a FS MTB, a hybrid, a cyclocross, a city bike and a road bike. Now folding bike, afterwards... fat bike? Trike? Unicycle? |
[QUOTE=worldbicyclist;18302829Kojaks vs Marathons is a no brainer for me. On that bad roads and highways (burst truck tires wires) I'm going to rely on the flatproof part of the Marathons way too much. And they last up to 10k kilometers. I'm not carrying spare tires.[/QUOTE]Have you considered
1) Smaller tyres last a proportional smaller distance than say 26"? 2) Smaller tyres my be much harder to source should you get a moster gash and are forced to replace? A foldable Kojak may be good insurance. |
You are right. The circumference is almost 50% smaller, so they should last a little bit over half the distance than a 28" one. Curiously enough on Schwalbes website I cant find the Kojak foldable in 16", only down to 17 x 1 1/4 or 18 x 1.25.
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i believe they stopped making the jokack folding this year. in the 349 size at least. may need to hunt about for old stock.
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Heres the deal.. You scrub off more rubber accelerating hard and climbing than JRA.
Ride to save your rear tire is a Choice. |
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