[MENTION=113205]Richard L[/MENTION]ee Kickstarter t&c clearly state they do not give refunds. They clearly state they do not promise delivery of a product. I'm curious as to whether you have experience with receiving a refund from KS, given that they pass-through the funds to the devs and do not keep the funds.

Okay, the secret is out.
 

Free of obligations, Richard starts to reveal all.

KS per se may not give refunds. But apparently, there is a mechanism in KS by which a project starter can refund a backer. A full refund too, not necessarily the amount collected after KS takes their cut. This may not be well known which why I said KS aficionados (only) may be aware of it. I don't know the inner workings of a refund, like if there is a fees and schtuff between KS and the project starter. But the refund process definitely can be initiated by the project starter.

After my departure (actually more like an ousting) I expected Helix to send a partial refund (pledge - KS fee) by PayPal or maybe a good old fashion cheque (check to you Yanks) by postal mail. To my surprise, I received an auto-notification email from KS saying a refund has been forwarded to my original method of payment (and instructions what to do if that did not exist any longer). The refund appeared on my credit card balance a couple business days later.

Again, I'd point out that my case is unusual.

Wow very unusual. In my case I had the CEO of Amex try to get KS to refund me on a project and they flat out refused. I ended up getting 70% back direct from the developers and was out 30% for nothing. You must have
great c/c karma!

30% ??!!! Is that what KS takes ?!

Was your refund voluntarily performed by the project starter? Maybe that's it.

The project starter told me to start a chargeback because he could not refund me without losing 30% (I guess KS keeps their share no matter what). I have no way of knowing if it is really 30% or if that was b.s. It escalated all the way to Amex's CEO. No luck. I'm guessing your project starter ate those KS fees, whatever they are, for your refund.

Even with a powerful ally like the the CEO of Amex, KS would not bend a little. It's probably because once successfully funded, the money has been forwarded to the project starter, ie. really out of KS's filthy hands.

How did you receive your refund...chargeback to Amex from the project starter through the KS mechanism, chargeback to Amex directly from the project starter, PayPal, check, bank transfer....? In any case, even via KS interface, obviously the project starter has control over the amount refunded as evidenced by the our different experience.

The only good thing for a project starter to refund via KS is that there is a formal record the backer is not legally owed anything. I suppose a KS backer is not legally owed anything in the first place after pledging and successful funding. The only remedy in case of dispute being civil court individually or a good ol' class action.

:) One test bike on the runway and it is beautiful!

Roll on the spring.

Yes, it is a beautiful bike! Test bike going out first week of January!


(P.s.: manufacturing the rear swing arm is what delayed the project for over two years. Issues such as the swing arm geometry and tubing thickness were too complex for any robot welding subcontractor to reasonably manufacture cost effectively as they wanted 7 figures with a one year lead time, so Helix built their own welding chamber and leased their own robot welder instead. Hand welding would be too complicated and slow because of all the gas shielding that would be required.)

I believe Kickstarter fees are between 5-10% depending on the country and currency.

Thanks
Yan

Not that I have an axe to grind at all, but does it not mean "in two weeks" ?

Joke aside, well done!

Can't wait to see it roll, I'm super rooting for KS backers to be satisfied!

Also...

Update 12/09/2017: "The wait is almost over, in the next update we will be posting our anticipated manufacturing and delivery schedule."

Update 12/23/2017: "After contacting the custom parts suppliers, the manufacturing and delivery schedule should be posted next week.

:crash:

Maybe it'd be best if Peter learned underpromising and overdelivering.

Good morning everyone (it's Saturday morning after sunrise in this part of the world), after noon or evening as applicable. Sounds like something really exciting happened.

spambait11, by rear swing arm, does that mean the entire rear triangle or that small but very important helical hinge and/or mechanisms surrounding it?

Yan, that's certainly less shocking than 30%. Nevertheless, I suppose one should be thankful that Peter refunded me everything including what KS had already grabbed. So maybe I'm not going to be such a bad boy and snitch everything after all, muhahahaha.

Yeah me too...sigh.

The kickstarter fees are listed at https://www.kickstarter.com/help/fees. It seems they are between 8% and 10% for most countries.

Thanks,
Yan

Well, grrr....that makes me even more pissed off at the idiot developer I funded, he lied as well. Not that I am the only one (but one of the few who got money back at all). Oh, well. Really exciting to see the Helix come to fruition and I'm hoping it far exceeds the backer's expectations. Pics once they are out there, please.

Think the main website pics have been updated, bit looks more beautiful on backer portal for some reason.

Hi! What was the name of the electric motor kit you're a backer of? I backed it as well,...but I got cold feet and asked for a refund. I got 100% back, and there was no issues whatsoever. I, for the life of me, can't seem to remember the name of it. :o

The test bike really does look great! There is also a nice picture of the Helix Team behind the test bike frame pieces.

UrbanX or Urbanext (bmw made them change the name) is the kit I had backed to work as an interim solution until the Shareroller gets released. Should have just waited and done nothing.

Peter made it sound like it was mainly a welding issue for the entire rear triangle (because the geometry of the rear triangle made it complicated to weld), since he specifically wanted robot welding. Helix tried to contract out the welding, but the subcontractor wanted 7 figures and long lead times. So Helix looked at other options: "stamping, super plastic forming and then casting." These were the times when everyone was getting frustrated because we didn’t know the full-story for the delay. Eventually Helix settled on doing everything in-house, and we’re finally seeing the results.

The triangular supports for the rear swing arm are longer making the rear swing arm look much more, well, triangular which makes the overall design of the bike look more aesthetically pleasing. He’s also given the backers a Ti seatpost.

Looking forward to riding this bike!

Lol! Don’t jinx us!

That's it!!! I backed Shareroller, and I got a 100% refund. Thanks!!! :)

I'm glad I decided not to get on board with any of the campaigns that had interested me,...this is too much of a gamble. Eon is a prime example of a con man getting away with MURDER!!!

Eon Electric Kick Scooter - is it for real, or another clever scam like VOMO?

Jeff from Shareroller is a lot like the Helix guy - very much a perfectionist. He's honest, too, which is why you got a full refund.
I'm happy waiting for his kit whenever I get it. Just be glad you didn't buy into UrbanX, what a disaster. I now have a $50 KS limit, lol.

I spent $10, or something of that order, on a crowd-funded book which is nowhere to be seen. I am glad my lesson was so much cheaper :innocent:

While this is a happy occasion for Helix backers, looks like many need to vent off frustrations with Kickstarter and probably other crowdfunders.

I received this response from KS in regards to an inquiry I made a while ago, in part here:

Note there is nothing, at least in the response to my inquiry, about whether the refund is for the full pledge amount. Refund is not what I had asked about it the first place.

More importantly, since they rely on a system of trust and don't step into the process itself, that's weasel words meaning Kickstarter is about as useful as eBay of yesteryear when it come to issues. As middlemen, they take their 8 - 10%, which is about the same as eBay, but then provide no protection nor arbitration services once the campaign is over.

To add a little to what I wrote in #731, there are 2 kinds of remedies. (a) If clearly there is misrepresentation and fraud, it is a criminal case and law enforcement must get involved. That's when KS gets off their lazy backs. (b) If the project starter has demonstrated reasonable due diligence in trying to fulfill advertised objectives, and the other party is not satisfied, then it's civil court. Of course, what constitutes reasonable due diligence is up in the air. KS sure doesn't care unless cops come knocking on their door.

Beautiful.