Helix Update?
02-27-19, 01:56 PM
#1876
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According to the statistics I could find, about 39% of KS projects actually get funded. Another source cited that 65% of backers agreed that the reward was delivered on time. The other 35% isn't exactly clear, but it appears that the reward was not delivered (as promised presumably), or outright failed to materialize (2009-2015). So, of all the KS campaigns, about 25% get funded and actually go through to a reasonable level of satisfaction.
In 2017, KS reports that the average amount raised by successfully funded KS projects was about $21,700. The median amount for a project was just over $5000. In other words, the majority of most successfully funded projects are probably much smaller scale projects with significantly less complexity than what the Helix aspires to... ever see how many backpacks pop up on KS?
The Helix project is therefore several orders of magnitude greater in difficulty than the average KS project. It raised an incredible amount of money for a KS campaign; suggesting that it tapped into a niche that people wanted. But it's a complex project - not as complex as say, an automobile, but one that is demonstrably more involved than a bag or a belt, etc. And as we've seen over almost four long years of waiting - as others have belabored repeatedly on this forum - maybe Helix bit off more than it could chew; it wasn't being realistic; it should have had a different business plan; it maybe should have had better predesign and premanufacture conceptualization; the list goes on. Maybe, maybe not. I'm not a start up company, or even care to be one, so I can't relate and I won't judge on what should or should not have been done.
But the point is that KS is a risk - period. Sure I get it that people are upset that they invested a significant amount and had to wait so long, but despite what anybody claims, shouts, and yells about... it's a risk. You're buying into some person's vision; there are no guarantees that it will materialize and if it does, it might still change. If you thought you were getting a bike and Helix gave you a unicycle, that would be a different matter. But aside from a few minor changes and a few pounds, backers are getting 98% or more of they paid for. It went from some guy's vision, to prototype, to now this. First iteration. Considering the scope of the Helix project, that seems pretty damn good, especially in an era of firmware updates, OS updates, and perpetual recalls. And the backers got this at an amazing price, titanium or not.
But the bottom line is if you can't accept that risk, then don't invest. This is a niche product in a niche forum - I highly doubt anybody who backed Helix is "hurting over the money" invested; they should have been prepared to lose the money outright. If they invested and thought this was a guaranteed outcome, then they bluntly took a chance they should not have. Given the success rate of KS and the nature of the project relative to others, people should actually be more surprised that Helix seems to have succeeded rather than failed.
Hope for the best; prepare for the worst.
In 2017, KS reports that the average amount raised by successfully funded KS projects was about $21,700. The median amount for a project was just over $5000. In other words, the majority of most successfully funded projects are probably much smaller scale projects with significantly less complexity than what the Helix aspires to... ever see how many backpacks pop up on KS?
The Helix project is therefore several orders of magnitude greater in difficulty than the average KS project. It raised an incredible amount of money for a KS campaign; suggesting that it tapped into a niche that people wanted. But it's a complex project - not as complex as say, an automobile, but one that is demonstrably more involved than a bag or a belt, etc. And as we've seen over almost four long years of waiting - as others have belabored repeatedly on this forum - maybe Helix bit off more than it could chew; it wasn't being realistic; it should have had a different business plan; it maybe should have had better predesign and premanufacture conceptualization; the list goes on. Maybe, maybe not. I'm not a start up company, or even care to be one, so I can't relate and I won't judge on what should or should not have been done.
But the point is that KS is a risk - period. Sure I get it that people are upset that they invested a significant amount and had to wait so long, but despite what anybody claims, shouts, and yells about... it's a risk. You're buying into some person's vision; there are no guarantees that it will materialize and if it does, it might still change. If you thought you were getting a bike and Helix gave you a unicycle, that would be a different matter. But aside from a few minor changes and a few pounds, backers are getting 98% or more of they paid for. It went from some guy's vision, to prototype, to now this. First iteration. Considering the scope of the Helix project, that seems pretty damn good, especially in an era of firmware updates, OS updates, and perpetual recalls. And the backers got this at an amazing price, titanium or not.
But the bottom line is if you can't accept that risk, then don't invest. This is a niche product in a niche forum - I highly doubt anybody who backed Helix is "hurting over the money" invested; they should have been prepared to lose the money outright. If they invested and thought this was a guaranteed outcome, then they bluntly took a chance they should not have. Given the success rate of KS and the nature of the project relative to others, people should actually be more surprised that Helix seems to have succeeded rather than failed.
Hope for the best; prepare for the worst.
All that said, I'm really happy that an actual bike has been delivered, and it looks pretty nice, worthy of the Kickstarter price even if it's not exactly what was promised. By no means the disaster that the three-year delay suggested was likely.
02-27-19, 02:00 PM
#1877
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I don't know if I would install a Brooks saddle on the Helix. To be fair, I find the Brooks saddle to be extremely comfortable, but yes, I can see how it might be out of place. However, Brooks does offer ones in black that could work (black goes with everything!), as well as a non-leather, textured version that might work.
02-27-19, 02:05 PM
#1878
Senior Member
Leather is fantastic but unfortunately even a ti-rail B17 is heavy, which would continue that issue with Helix. I'd use one anyway, those newfangled Brookses were a miserable experience for me..I sold my C17 after a few months.
02-27-19, 02:07 PM
#1879
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Damn. Now look what you made me go and do. I went to the Brooks website... and they have a deep red Cambium (non leather) saddle. Ooooo.... if the Helix is a deepish grey, the red would really stand out! Good grief... here I am thinking on how to accessorize a bike only 5 people in the world have.
And... you could get red pedals... and deep red leather wrap for the handles.... oooooo.... this merits some window shopping...
And... you could get red pedals... and deep red leather wrap for the handles.... oooooo.... this merits some window shopping...
02-27-19, 02:10 PM
#1880
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my P6RX Brompton fully equipped (but with Russian-made titanium rack) weighs 13.5kg. This leaves a little over 3kg for equipment, which is not much. It is left to see how much the helix rack and mudguard weigh. With the recently published measurements, I don't expect the saving to be significant, but even half a kilo could be substantial inn bike touring!
BTW, which version of the Cubby do you have: 3 or 4?
BTW, which version of the Cubby do you have: 3 or 4?
I had an early version of Chubby 4, before they started making different versions for different bikes. I paid under $500 at the time, i.e. it was a very good deal.
Is the titanium rack something you would advise to look into? Have you got a link to it? I strengthened the original Brompton rack and also put side roller wheels onto it, that really enhance the maneuverability of the folded bike, so I am not very eager to jump onto another rack, but one should always keep the eyes open.
02-27-19, 02:34 PM
#1881
Senior Member
Sure, Kickstarter carries risk. But that doesn't in any way whatever excuse Helix, which didn't deliver what it promised when it promised. Those were Helix's promises, not Kickstarter's. So it's no defense of Helix that the product was offered on Kickstarter.
All that said, I'm really happy that an actual bike has been delivered, and it looks pretty nice, worthy of the Kickstarter price even if it's not exactly what was promised. By no means the disaster that the three-year delay suggested was likely.
All that said, I'm really happy that an actual bike has been delivered, and it looks pretty nice, worthy of the Kickstarter price even if it's not exactly what was promised. By no means the disaster that the three-year delay suggested was likely.
But I also agree with you that the bike looks exciting, and hopefully, will live up to many of its promises!
02-27-19, 03:46 PM
#1882
Senior Member
Yes. They started doning that lately. I've actually tested one for a couple of weeks on my road bike and found it surprisingly comfortable. But it's not made of leather...😊
02-27-19, 04:08 PM
#1883
Senior Member
My lock with its bag weigh close to 2kg, so I am actually not that far away.
I had an early version of Chubby 4, before they started making different versions for different bikes. I paid under $500 at the time, i.e. it was a very good deal.
Is the titanium rack something you would advise to look into? Have you got a link to it? I strengthened the original Brompton rack and also put side roller wheels onto it, that really enhance the maneuverability of the folded bike, so I am not very eager to jump onto another rack, but one should always keep the eyes open.
I had an early version of Chubby 4, before they started making different versions for different bikes. I paid under $500 at the time, i.e. it was a very good deal.
Is the titanium rack something you would advise to look into? Have you got a link to it? I strengthened the original Brompton rack and also put side roller wheels onto it, that really enhance the maneuverability of the folded bike, so I am not very eager to jump onto another rack, but one should always keep the eyes open.
02-27-19, 04:25 PM
#1884
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I'm putting a Gilles Berthoud Aravis saddle on mine. Lovely leather in a more modern design and greater utility than Brooks' more recent saddles by many accounts.
02-27-19, 09:16 PM
#1885
Newbie
Never give up, Joe. I got your back. Everything you said has been accurate. You're not a hater nor a troll. You are just stating facts as they were promised that has not been delivered. On most forums if you state negative facts about a product or an idea you are seen as a hater. Many people don't see this as constructive criticism. I disagree. I want to read every negative review of any product I purchase. I need to be able to search through human consciousness and figure out why one person thinks a product is perfection and why another person thinks the exact same product is flawed. Yes, it's a miracle that the Helix has seen the light of day. You never argued against this. Most people thought that there was no way that this Kickstarter project would come to fruition. Thank goodness we were proven wrong and it looks like all of the Kickstarter backers are going to get their Helix's. Now we have to deal with the cards we have been dealt and it is quite different than what we were promised. I'm willing to wait it out. I am not persuaded by Brompton, Dahon, or Tern. I believe in the Helix vision. It's just that we haven't gotten there yet. I am excited about the reviews and mods to come and excited about how Helix will respond to feedback.
02-27-19, 09:28 PM
#1886
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yes. Mine turned out to be very strong (up to 30kg carry according to maker, but I never passed the 10) and 100 percent compatible with the original. I transferred the straps and both easywheels (minimods) with no problem. I don't have the link with me right now. Will look for it at home.
02-27-19, 09:39 PM
#1887
Senior Member
David Hunter, thanks! Hey, I still think the bike is cool even if Peter missed a really important target. It's certainly not a problem in my life personally if this fails, it's just frustrating to see him get this far and have this outcome. Maybe I should seem less startled/bewildered, but the weight gain over what he'd planned simply didn't occur to me..I didn't see it coming.
At any rate I'm not in the market now, but would I buy a used one in a few years? Heck yeah!
At any rate I'm not in the market now, but would I buy a used one in a few years? Heck yeah!
02-28-19, 12:05 AM
#1888
Senior Member
I presume your rack is the one by H&H Design. It is indeed structurally sound unlike most of the aftermarket racks offered for Brompton. My moving of the sideways roller wheel onto that rack would be quite a challenge though. I think will look into just replacing the stays of the original Brompton rack with steel ones.
02-28-19, 12:32 AM
#1889
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David Hunter, thanks! Hey, I still think the bike is cool even if Peter missed a really important target. It's certainly not a problem in my life personally if this fails, it's just frustrating to see him get this far and have this outcome. Maybe I should seem less startled/bewildered, but the weight gain over what he'd planned simply didn't occur to me..I didn't see it coming.
At any rate I'm not in the market now, but would I buy a used one in a few years? Heck yeah!
At any rate I'm not in the market now, but would I buy a used one in a few years? Heck yeah!
I often disagree with you Joe, though sometimes only in tone. However, your scepticism always prompts interesting discussion. It is cool that you are passionate about and invested in the 'integrity' of Helix and I have always firmly believed you will end up buying one if and when it became 'real'.
On the weight thing, it is a shame that the 10 speed is not still under 10kg. The increase is significant (>17%), a surprise to backers and will no doubt affect marketing.
Bottom line though is that even with the added weight, Helix still occupies the same sweetspot that attracted me and many others originally. It is slightly less sweet in one aspect but that has not fundamentally shifted the center of gravity of it's appeal.
02-28-19, 09:58 AM
#1890
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I bought mine from a private guy named Maxim Nreg (or something simmilar) on eBay, but I cannot find his listing there any more. H&H make aesthetically pleasing products, but I had some problems with their structural strength. Like I said, replacing the rack was a straightforward ten minute job, no complications involved.
. With this I am going half way towards a titanium rack .
02-28-19, 10:21 AM
#1891
Senior Member
Thanks. My problem is that I need to move the location of the roller wheels and the H&H has no place where I could drill. Also the top of the original Brompton rack seems strong enough, maybe even too strong for what it needs to be. On the other hand the stays are feeble. I looked at the strength of tubes from various materials and it seems that stainless steel brings practically no gain in strength for reasonable parameters compared to alu, just gain in weight. However, titanium brings advantage and I ordered titanium tubes for the stays. Incidentally, with shipping there is practically no difference in cost when varying tube material . With this I am going half way towards a titanium rack .
. With this I am going half way towards a titanium rack .
02-28-19, 10:59 AM
#1892
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Optimization is obviously a complicated process that commonly yields many solutions. Rolling on the wheel in Helix is obviously good - you reuse the existing structure and are able to roll with not much pain over big obstacles. Originally I was put off by the tiny wheels barely sticking out of the rack for rolling the folded Brompton. However, after I got the side wheels mounted, see here, I think I have a winner. The folded bike became extremely versatile. I move over buildings, streets, stairs, elevators, etc. operating like people pulling suitcases and becoming indistinguishable from that crowd. My 2 side wheel are also minimod/bikegang, while the 4 other original.
02-28-19, 11:21 AM
#1893
Senior Member
Wow! My current stay solution is described here. It is OK, but could be better, hence my poking around.
Optimization is obviously a complicated process that commonly yields many solutions. Rolling on the wheel in Helix is obviously good - you reuse the existing structure and are able to roll with not much pain over big obstacles. Originally I was put off by the tiny wheels barely sticking out of the rack for rolling the folded Brompton. However, after I got the side wheels mounted, see here, I think I have a winner. The folded bike became extremely versatile. I move over buildings, streets, stairs, elevators, etc. operating like people pulling suitcases and becoming indistinguishable from that crowd. My 2 side wheel are also minimod/bikegang, while the 4 other original.
Optimization is obviously a complicated process that commonly yields many solutions. Rolling on the wheel in Helix is obviously good - you reuse the existing structure and are able to roll with not much pain over big obstacles. Originally I was put off by the tiny wheels barely sticking out of the rack for rolling the folded Brompton. However, after I got the side wheels mounted, see here, I think I have a winner. The folded bike became extremely versatile. I move over buildings, streets, stairs, elevators, etc. operating like people pulling suitcases and becoming indistinguishable from that crowd. My 2 side wheel are also minimod/bikegang, while the 4 other original.
02-28-19, 02:41 PM
#1894
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lol. That’s like saying "lots of people promise to be nice, some actually are." Vague generalities aside, there’s a big difference between someone on Kickstarter getting a comic book out on time vs. producing a whole new bike. A little more perspective, please.
02-28-19, 03:07 PM
#1895
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Have you owned one? They are still - after more than 40 years - the best in class when it comes to folding. They were developed as commuter bikes ... Unfortunately they do not work as long as their mechanical anchestors and if they break they are expensive or even impossible to fix. So I for my part favor simple constructions as they last and if they have proven to last many years they are probably a good investment due to reliability. Others may consider those to be old fashioned - let's talk again twenty years later... Given how many bikes Brompton sells I am not alone. Neither are you and luckily there are other brands as well that may fit your taste but not mine.
02-28-19, 03:26 PM
#1896
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02-28-19, 03:36 PM
#1897
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Mine, originally a S6Ex with many lightweight components (AX Lightness saddle, Brompfication seatpost, Ridea brakes, Tune Bigfoot crank, TI Parts Workshop bottom bracket, HT AR12 Ti pedals...), but with added Ti parts Workshop rack, SON XS new hub dynamo, SON Edelux II light, SON rear light, 17carbon mudguards and a Rohloff Speedhub weight about 11kg with Marathon Plus tires, much less with lightweight tires (I am waiting for the new Schwalbe One of the 2019 CHPT3, I hope that Brompton will sell them as spare parts as it was the case for the tan Kojak of the previous CHPT3)..
So a fully equipped Brompton with its original frame can have the same weight as a non equipped Helix !
I also can confirm that the Chubby is accepted by several airlines. One of its advantage is also light weight compared to most other trailers. Its wheels size is ETRTO 349, same wheel size as the Brompton (there is also a version with ETRTO 355 wheels for the Birdy)..
What you argue is valid, but I think the real problem most people have is that Brompton charges 2019 prices for 1980s technology which you admit has not changed much. If someone wanted to charge you $2500 for a bike made in the 1980s (even if it was brand new, never used), I think you’d think that person was crazy. Well, I think brompton is crazy.
The Bromptoin frame (including the titanium fork and rear triangle), painting and assembly are made in UK, this has a price !
Look at the price of the US made Seattle Cycles Burke or at the price of the Bike Friday. The Birdy is also very expensive even if its frame is made in Asia.
The Tyrell folding bikes aren't cheap too.
I do not know what you call "old" and "new" technology, but the Tyrell Ive, BF and Birdy are made of good old steel or aluminum and the entry level models use the same kind of equipment as the Brompton.
Last edited by Jipe; 02-28-19 at 03:51 PM.
02-28-19, 03:48 PM
#1898
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Forums are for discussion. If people don't like a person's comments, ignore them. I don't understand what the issue is. Especially since some here harp on things (the "wondrous, amazing, unbeatable brompton), and then argue when others disagree. Now when the other person/s have an opinion, those same individuals pounce. Ridiculous!
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02-28-19, 03:48 PM
#1899
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02-28-19, 04:36 PM
#1900
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...Dahon Boardwalk.