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Rethinking SRAM Dual Drive

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Rethinking SRAM Dual Drive

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Old 12-27-16, 03:28 PM
  #51  
Rick Imby
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post


[my father, right after I went in the US Navy , 1966, (HS grad,> viet nam war conscription time) , gave my 3 cubed bike

to the son of a family friend , who promptly let it be stolen]



Yes often what people get for free they don't know how to take care of, or value it.
Huge loss, but my parents put no value on my treasures either.
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Old 08-25-17, 03:59 AM
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Make that 33 months...

...and no issues/problems whatsoever. The thing keeps working trouble-free.

Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Twenty five months on, and I've had absolutely no problems or issues with the SRAM DualDrive hub. The bike was bought second hand so the hub's been going for longer than that. No mis-shifts, no noises, no discernible resistance, no clickbox falling off, no maintainace woes, no adjustment, no nothing. The thing just works. Period/full stop.
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Old 08-26-17, 11:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
...and no issues/problems whatsoever. The thing keeps working trouble-free.
Still twisting my brain about what to do with my NWT. It is a 3 x 8 der by now. I really like the wide range on this bike and want to keep it but find it really difficult to get crisp shifting. Especially the front der is difficult to dial in. I know the bike so I have found ways around the "personality" of the drivetrain but would like it to be perfect. I like that the present drivetrain is light but still go back to dual drive in my head.

Maybe I should do it this winter. I only have studded tyres on one 20" folder in the winter so I could rebuild the NWT.
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Old 08-26-17, 12:05 PM
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Sram is Quitting the Dual Drive and all internal gear hubs, and orphaning them.

But Sturmey Archer Sun Race , in their new family home on tropical Taiwan,
is continuing to make their version of a 3 speed IGH + a Shimano Compatible Cassette driver..

& a much wider range of products than the old British company ever did..





....

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Old 08-26-17, 05:02 PM
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the fact is that SDDs were orphans all along. SRAM never provided support or much in the way of documentation. it's not like if the thing broke down SRAM would fix it or even look it over.

So long as you stock up on hubs, needles and clickboxes, you'll be set for a good decade. all other ancilliary parts are non-proprietary.

Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Sram is Quitting the Dual Drive and all internal gear hubs, and orphaning them.

But Sturmey Archer Sun Race , in their new family home on tropical Taiwan,
is continuing to make their version of a 3 speed IGH + a Shimano Compatible Cassette driver..

& a much wider range of products than the old British company ever did..





....

Last edited by Abu Mahendra; 08-26-17 at 07:28 PM.
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Old 08-27-17, 01:05 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
...and no issues/problems whatsoever. The thing keeps working trouble-free.
Excellent! They seem very robust.

I recently rebuilt the one that came with the triplet. Despite the high torque and load, it is still working great.
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Old 08-27-17, 01:12 PM
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Originally Posted by badmother View Post
Still twisting my brain about what to do with my NWT. It is a 3 x 8 der by now. I really like the wide range on this bike and want to keep it but find it really difficult to get crisp shifting. Especially the front der is difficult to dial in. I know the bike so I have found ways around the "personality" of the drivetrain but would like it to be perfect. I like that the present drivetrain is light but still go back to dual drive in my head.
Index shifting? With the standard triple ramped and pinned chainrings?

A 3x8 is straightforward to friction shift with the wider cog spacing. I did a 2x8 on my tikit with road bars for a while. Worked great. I decided to swap the road bars for Jitesha bars early this year and left the friction shifting on the front but indexing on the rear. I've been pretty happy with it too.

I've large left the triple chainrings on my NWT stock minus the granny every now and then. Changing the middle or large chainring was not worth the worse performance with STI shifting during a handful of experiments.
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Old 08-27-17, 04:07 PM
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
Index shifting? With the standard triple ramped and pinned chainrings?

A 3x8 is straightforward to friction shift with the wider cog spacing. I did a 2x8 on my tikit with road bars for a while. Worked great. I decided to swap the road bars for Jitesha bars early this year and left the friction shifting on the front but indexing on the rear. I've been pretty happy with it too.
Actually I think There are several small changes that has to be made and I can not make up my mind about starting (continuing) to buy new parts or if I should go for a dual drive drivetrain. I managed to destroy the front der that came with the bike (folding it in a hurry when the bike was new to me and applying force instead of taking a closer look when there was resistance ). I bought a new one that should work fine but there is chain rub- and when trying to adjust to get rid of chain rub it makes the shifting less than ideal. If I adjust to get close to perfect shift there is rubbing... It is a braze on one not clamp so not a lot of options adjusting it.

New chain. New middle ring. I think one chainring is lightly bent. If I was sure that was the only problem I`d just buy another one but I am not. Also thinking the rear der could be replaced but since I am not confident I can fix the chain rubbing in front I do not feel like replacing the rear since a Dual Drive setup can use a shorter cage. Thinking shifters may be close to needing replacement but not sure I`ll stick to what I have. Need a major facelift but not sure what way to go.

Then there is the danger of getting the front der misaligned while folding and traveling. An IGH instead of the front der is tempting.

Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
I've large left the triple chainrings on my NWT stock minus the granny every now and then. Changing the middle or large chainring was not worth the worse performance with STI shifting during a handful of experiments.
I bet you are a stronger rider than I am at present. I do not use the granny often but really like to have the option. At the moment it can not shift to granny easily but that is becouse I adjusted so that rubbing is almost gone...
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Old 08-28-17, 09:23 AM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by badmother View Post
I managed to destroy the front der that came with the bike.
Did you check that the front derailer hanger was aligned correctly?

I did something very similar while quick folding my NWT a decade ago. The derailer was largely fine but I had a crazy time getting the mount into the correct plane. When the mount was in the wrong plane, I could get the front derailer "correct enough" to work a few times until cable tension while shifting would slowly pull it out of alignment.

I've always been a spinner rather than a masher. So rides with ridiculous climbs always start with me swapping the 30 tooth granny for a 26.
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Old 08-28-17, 09:47 AM
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Originally Posted by badmother View Post
Actually I think There are several small changes that has to be made and I can not make up my mind about starting (continuing) to buy new parts or if I should go for a dual drive drivetrain. I managed to destroy the front der that came with the bike (folding it in a hurry when the bike was new to me and applying force instead of taking a closer look when there was resistance ). I bought a new one that should work fine but there is chain rub- and when trying to adjust to get rid of chain rub it makes the shifting less than ideal. If I adjust to get close to perfect shift there is rubbing... It is a braze on one not clamp so not a lot of options adjusting it.

New chain. New middle ring. I think one chainring is lightly bent. If I was sure that was the only problem I`d just buy another one but I am not. Also thinking the rear der could be replaced but since I am not confident I can fix the chain rubbing in front I do not feel like replacing the rear since a Dual Drive setup can use a shorter cage. Thinking shifters may be close to needing replacement but not sure I`ll stick to what I have. Need a major facelift but not sure what way to go.

Then there is the danger of getting the front der misaligned while folding and traveling. An IGH instead of the front der is tempting.



I bet you are a stronger rider than I am at present. I do not use the granny often but really like to have the option. At the moment it can not shift to granny easily but that is becouse I adjusted so that rubbing is almost gone...
The old mechanics from the 80s and 90s got a lot of practice re-designing front derailleur cages. Some of us were quite good at it.---Not sure if you are using a friction shifter on your front shifter but that can easily eliminate the rub too. If you find an old bike mechanic you may be in luck---grin
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Old 08-29-17, 02:10 AM
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
Did you check that the front derailer hanger was aligned correctly?
I did something very similar while quick folding my NWT a decade ago. The derailer was largely fine but I had a crazy time getting the mount into the correct plane. When the mount was in the wrong plane, I could get the front derailer "correct enough" to work a few times until cable tension while shifting would slowly pull it out of alignment.

I've always been a spinner rather than a masher. So rides with ridiculous climbs always start with me swapping the 30 tooth granny for a 26.
Could be some language problems here but was yours a clamp on or a braze on? Mine is braze on so not much adjustment possible, just a little.


Originally Posted by Rick Imby View Post
The old mechanics from the 80s and 90s got a lot of practice re-designing front derailleur cages. Some of us were quite good at it.---Not sure if you are using a friction shifter on your front shifter but that can easily eliminate the rub too. If you find an old bike mechanic you may be in luck---grin
I did some of that tweaking but I am not an expert and I tend to forget about it until I start riding so I end up trying to fix it on the road. My bike stand is not ideal for folders so I need to hang them from the ceiling in the kitchen and at the moment I am trying to fix the dishwasher so no space in the kitchen...

I am looking at dual drive hubs at the moment. I`ll report back
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Old 08-29-17, 09:02 AM
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the derailleur hanger Shop tool Park makes will work with smaller wheels..
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Old 08-29-17, 10:23 AM
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Originally Posted by badmother View Post
Could be some language problems here but was yours a clamp on or a braze on? Mine is braze on so not much adjustment possible, just a little.
AFAIK, Bike Friday bikes only support braze-ons. The angle of the front derailer is different for a small wheeled bike since the rear axle and chain path is lower.

That braze-on can get bent. When it does, the screw will have a harder time holding the front derailer in the appropriate position. That's what happened to my bike until I bent it back into shape.
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Old 08-29-17, 10:27 AM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
the derailleur hanger Shop tool Park makes will work with smaller wheels..
That's for the rear derailer not the front braze on.
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Old 08-29-17, 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
AFAIK, Bike Friday bikes only support braze-ons. The angle of the front derailer is different for a small wheeled bike since the rear axle and chain path is lower.

That braze-on can get bent. When it does, the screw will have a harder time holding the front derailer in the appropriate position. That's what happened to my bike until I bent it back into shape.
Wow, I am learning stuff here Braze ons is not at all common here. I brought the bike innside the shop when buying the new one and the guy kept saying "this is not stock" or whatever I should translate it to. I think he had never seen one. Then the old guy in the back of the workshop chimed in and told him to order what I needed.

Maybe I bent something when I destroyed the first one. I do actually remember it was a bit difficult to make it "settle inn" when I installed it. I need to take another look this weekend.

Is it possible to tweak it or do I need a framebuilder? Not sure where to find one around here.

Edit: Found something here. Must try: http://www.velonews.com/2002/05/bike...ignment_101563

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Old 08-29-17, 03:01 PM
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Originally Posted by badmother View Post
Wow, I am learning stuff here Braze ons is not at all common here. I brought the bike innside the shop when buying the new one and the guy kept saying "this is not stock" or whatever I should translate it to. I think he had never seen one. Then the old guy in the back of the workshop chimed in and told him to order what I needed.

Maybe I bent something when I destroyed the first one. I do actually remember it was a bit difficult to make it "settle inn" when I installed it. I need to take another look this weekend.

Is it possible to tweak it or do I need a framebuilder? Not sure where to find one around here.

Edit: Found something here. Must try: Technical FAQ: Front derailleur mount alignment | VeloNews.com
I always understood it's meant to be flexible to prevent damage to the front derailer. Since it's steel you should be able to bend it back. If my memory is correct, I used a screw driver!

EDIT: I put the screwdriver into the slot and bent it back. Obviously, do this with some care.
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Old 08-29-17, 03:19 PM
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Originally Posted by invisiblehand View Post
I always understood it's meant to be flexible to prevent damage to the front derailer. Since it's steel you should be able to bend it back. If my memory is correct, I used a screw driver!

EDIT: I put the screwdriver into the slot and bent it back. Obviously, do this with some care.
Oki, Thank you!
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Old 02-11-18, 11:41 PM
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39 months in...

...and no issues/problems whatsoever. The thing keeps working trouble-free. In those 39 months the clickbox has not fallen off or come undone even once.


Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Twenty five months on, and I've had absolutely no problems or issues with the SRAM DualDrive hub. The bike was bought second hand so the hub's been going for longer than that. No mis-shifts, no noises, no discernible resistance, no clickbox falling off, no maintainace woes, no adjustment, no nothing. The thing just works. Period/full stop.
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Old 02-12-18, 03:22 AM
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There's always tomorrow.
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Old 02-12-18, 07:30 AM
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This is one negative @$$ forum,...
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Old 04-02-18, 06:22 AM
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Sooo, I finally got around to do something about this bike. I bought a Sachs dd wheel 3x7 on Ebay this last autumn. Finally installed it this easter. Just rode it a few kilometers but I am already thinking about doing it to other folders. My son is out test riding it now becouse his Mini Cooper folder is 1x9 and sometimes more would be nice.

The really nice thing I noticed is the IGH effect you get in traffic. Just shift the left shifter as you are waiting for the green light and off you go.

I bought the rigtht shifters NOS for this setup but I am not impressed. I set it up with a SA twist grip i had laying around for the IGH instead just to see if it would shift properly as they say. I`ll order a different SA shifter for the left side later.

I`ll ride the 3x7 setup for some time. If the range is ok I`ll ride it until I need a new casette. Then I`ll buy a nine speed and reduce it to 8. That is the only way to get more than the 7 it came with.

If i buy another one for my white folder I`ll go with Sturmey Archer to get the pull chain instead of the clickbox you find on the Shram systems. I have been reading a lot recently and I find peopel using Shram discussing if you can remove the pin and click box and use a pull chain instead. My Sachs has got the chain and I like that.

The long cables under the BB on the NWT is not the best solution. I set it up with a cable hanger from Surly and a cable splitter bought at SJS to be able to have a shorter cable and housing and I then split the cable when folding the bike. I did the same on a detatchable bike with a Nexus7. I find I do not fold the NWT a lot. I detatch the pedals, fold the stem and the seat mast down and there is plenty space in my car when one seat is removed. Since I have other folders I use them on trains and busses.

I re routed the rear brake cable in the same process and think it is a little bit better (shorter) and less curves on it now. Also thinking about doing the same to the rear der cable, cable splitter and shorter housing/cable with splitter. It is only a few seconds more to fold the bike and I do that maybe once a month.

I kept my Deore rear der and the 8 speed shifter for now since it works just fine. I`ll ride the bike some more and decide. I want a shorter cage rear der since more ground clerance is one of the benifits of this mod. I installed a cheap 7 speed chain I had lying around to go with the "new" casette.

I kept my 42 middle ring up front and the now over sized chain ring guard. I`ll deal with such details later when I have tested some more.

The DD systems have been discussed in other threads and I remember peopel have asked about installing them on Dahons and asking about the OLD. I found Shram sold two different hubs, one was 130 and one was 135 OLD. It may be possible to play with- or grind down nuts to alter the OLD as with some other IGH`s.

I did not look into the OLD on the SA DD hubs yet. I know that SA constructed the IGH in the DD to take a regular left hand shifter so you can keep the look of the bike and also a lower cost in converting.

Edit: SA have hubs with 36, 32 and 28 holes. http://www.sturmey-archer.com/en/pro...l/cs-rk3-black i would guess something can be done to the nuts on the left hand side to alter the OLD.

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Old 04-02-18, 08:25 AM
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I believe that SRAM has discontinued the Dual Drive.
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Old 04-02-18, 09:08 AM
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It is known to be true..

They Bought out Sachs to eliminate a competitor in a Hostile takeover, is My belief..
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Old 04-02-18, 04:04 PM
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Originally Posted by Mtroup View Post
I believe that SRAM has discontinued the Dual Drive.
Some time back yes, but the hubs are still available. My Sachs hub I think they stopped producing around year 2000 and still I could buy one last autumn.
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Old 04-02-18, 04:20 PM
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installing a chain on a SRAM DD ala Sachs? hmmm...why? what's the problem with the SRAM DD clickbox and needle? fragile, prone to falling off? bullocks. In 40 months of ownership riding it hard at times, and on two tours, i still run the original needle and clickbox, and the latter has never come off once. if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

short and stubby RD? You want Shimano Zee...


Originally Posted by badmother View Post
Sooo, I finally got around to do something about this bike. I bought a Sachs dd wheel 3x7 on Ebay this last autumn. Finally installed it this easter. Just rode it a few kilometers but I am already thinking about doing it to other folders. My son is out test riding it now becouse his Mini Cooper folder is 1x9 and sometimes more would be nice.

The really nice thing I noticed is the IGH effect you get in traffic. Just shift the left shifter as you are waiting for the green light and off you go.

I bought the rigtht shifters NOS for this setup but I am not impressed. I set it up with a SA twist grip i had laying around for the IGH instead just to see if it would shift properly as they say. I`ll order a different SA shifter for the left side later.

I`ll ride the 3x7 setup for some time. If the range is ok I`ll ride it until I need a new casette. Then I`ll buy a nine speed and reduce it to 8. That is the only way to get more than the 7 it came with.

If i buy another one for my white folder I`ll go with Sturmey Archer to get the pull chain instead of the clickbox you find on the Shram systems. I have been reading a lot recently and I find peopel using Shram discussing if you can remove the pin and click box and use a pull chain instead. My Sachs has got the chain and I like that.

The long cables under the BB on the NWT is not the best solution. I set it up with a cable hanger from Surly and a cable splitter bought at SJS to be able to have a shorter cable and housing and I then split the cable when folding the bike. I did the same on a detatchable bike with a Nexus7. I find I do not fold the NWT a lot. I detatch the pedals, fold the stem and the seat mast down and there is plenty space in my car when one seat is removed. Since I have other folders I use them on trains and busses.

I re routed the rear brake cable in the same process and think it is a little bit better (shorter) and less curves on it now. Also thinking about doing the same to the rear der cable, cable splitter and shorter housing/cable with splitter. It is only a few seconds more to fold the bike and I do that maybe once a month.

I kept my Deore rear der and the 8 speed shifter for now since it works just fine. I`ll ride the bike some more and decide. I want a shorter cage rear der since more ground clerance is one of the benifits of this mod. I installed a cheap 7 speed chain I had lying around to go with the "new" casette.

I kept my 42 middle ring up front and the now over sized chain ring guard. I`ll deal with such details later when I have tested some more.

The DD systems have been discussed in other threads and I remember peopel have asked about installing them on Dahons and asking about the OLD. I found Shram sold two different hubs, one was 130 and one was 135 OLD. It may be possible to play with- or grind down nuts to alter the OLD as with some other IGH`s.

I did not look into the OLD on the SA DD hubs yet. I know that SA constructed the IGH in the DD to take a regular left hand shifter so you can keep the look of the bike and also a lower cost in converting.

Edit: SA have hubs with 36, 32 and 28 holes. Sturmey-Archer | CS-RK3 Black i would guess something can be done to the nuts on the left hand side to alter the OLD.
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