v1nce

Hi, long time no post! Started working today at a Berlin Brompton (they only sell Bromptons and all kinds of accessories) store today. Part of the deal is I can get any Brompton with a 15% discount.
Things I am already sure about are: Son Dynamo, 6 Speed, luggage rack, luggage block, toolset, biggest front (touring) bag, will mount my own Brooks, a somewhat darker paint colour, Marathon greenguard, not the + ones.

If you were in my shoes, and valued durability and versatility above all else (not much of a weight weenie) and cost is only a slight/no huge issue as I describe below, what would you get?

1. Would you go for Titanium? It adds almost 800€ to cost and reduces almost 800 grams. I am hesitant because, though I can afford it I fear two things: It will up the paranoia factor = lower versatility for me, bit worried that I would almost never want to lock it up anywhere for any period if the bike becomes +800€. Also wonder if Ti is less or more likely to crack than steel, especially when heavily loaded? Any other reason why it would (not) be worthwhile? Rust...?

2. I tend to cycle fairly chill/slow and often singlespeed, and have heard the second gear of an SA hubby is essentially direct drive (=most efficient).. would be nice to spend most time in that gear but I want the bike to be (any) tourworthy as well. So I guess I should get reduced gearing,.. but how much? 12%? Less? Why?

3. The (now available) 2017 models have a new shifterpod/brakelever unit, totally integrated. Save space on handlebar, sits underneath not on top of handlebar (can flip bike upside down), bit smaller, bit more ergonomic... but,.. unproven, and if shifterunit breaks you may have to replace brake lever with it since not sure if pod is separately available. Anyone have any thoughts on which to pick?

4. Tending towards P-type,.. because versatility, touring, positions and me not giving a hoot about looks. Still a bit unsure because almost nobody seems to buy P-type.. Why? thoughts?

5. Add ons you consider essential or big upgrades? Nylon handle thing on frame? Which lock to get?
Any other tips (especially stuff I can do to brand new brom to keep it in great condition/prevent unnecessary wear, tear and rust (WD 40 on paint? Koolstop brakepads?) most welcome!

berlinonaut

1. yes, because it keeps the worth of the bike high, it lowers the weight, it is cool, some say it would be more comfy, it lasts forever plus you do not have to think about the second color for the frame. No because the price for a bit of (very welcome) weight saving is ridiculously high. So, yes, I'd go for titanium. In fact I did. ;-)

2. If you are in Berlin only/most of the time the 2-speed will be enough (and safe as much weight as titanium). Many people have toured with it as well (I did, too). Factory gearing will do here. Alternatively go for 6-speed with lowered gearing - factory gearing is too high. Avoid the 3-speed as it makes absolutely no sense.

3. 2017 model

4. depends on your size/height. P is no doubt the ugliest choice possible.

5. Ergon grips. Don't buy the SON-option from Brompton, get the wheel from Schmidt directly and add the lights of your choice. You'll save a fortune and still have far better lights than delivered with the factory kit plus a spare front wheel to sell. Get a cheap bicycle computer with cadence metering. Think again about the rack - it is ugly and heavy. Almost only useful for rolling. If you do not roll the bike much you won't need it. At least in Berlin you won't need the cover as well. Don't go for the Marathons - they are heavy and have huge rolling resistance. With a new bike go for the folding Kojak or the Brompton tyre (if you can live with the rare possibility of a puncture). You'll probably buy more than one bag over time and the folding basket is neat and very useful, too. Think about the telescopic seatpost, if you are tall. Very useful but very heavy as well. Get the lightest bike you can afford - low weight is worth almost everything if you carry the bike to the fourth floor regularly....

In which position are you working at the Brompton store if you need advice yourself? ;-) And in which store?
If you work in the store you probably can test stuff out and find out what fits you best over time.

Abu Mahendra

I'd see if Tyrell or Pacific Cycles are hiring.

Just kidding. Good luck with the job, good luck with the bike.

v1nce

Thanks!! Super helpful! One thing though, I feel like perhaps you and I have rather different uses in minds for our Bromptons. I do not intend to use it for multi-modal commuting often, so I will not be lifting it often or long. The prime uses I intend to use the Brompton for: 1 to 2 hour rides very often around Berlin. Grocery shopping, some tours in the area for 3 ish hours or more, now and then longer tours of 300 to 1000kms, at one point hopefully a 1600 to 2500 km tour, picking up friends from station + very often buying 2nd hand bikes (I flip bikes often) and then attaching the folded brompton to the rack (gonna make a wooden/strap gadget thing or carry it strapped to really big backpack) of bike I bought/my normal bike. Hence al lot of the add ons to the bike and not caring about weight too much. I am used to carrying weight. Also I live on groundfloor (used to live in plenty of 4th floor places, never, ever! again hahahaha!) and intend to always keep doing that, in fact looking to buy an apartment in leipzig.. ground floor or first floor only haha! I carry too many bikes (non folders too) in too often to live any higher.

1. Makes sense! Still on the fence haha!
2. I need gears/gear range for touring, not a good climber and knees are good now but gave me trouble in past, hence 6 speed.
3. But why? Only major upgrade is the shifters I think. Of course I can get a better deal on an otherwise totally unused/new 2016 model. As a mechanic, combining expensive to replace parts never sits so well with me.
4. I am 182cm. P-ugly thing,.. truly, I do not care about looks at all! if it means more versatility or comfort!
5. I have a bunch of NOS Biogrips, was thinking about using them. SON thing, excellent! Bike computer, how come? I had one once, never used it. Not really interested in competition/racing myself etc. Marathon greenguards, I read a very in depth test recently which concluded that the Marathon greenguards (unlike the +) have remarkably! good rolling resistance and plenty of puncture protection. Since speed or weight reduction are quite far down on my list, would the other tires still make sense?
Position, I am very experienced salesman/ bike mechanic with a lot of folder experience, just not much with Brommies. Today was first day. I work at the store in the west. I will of course test a lot before deciding, but already the info/your thoughts have proven invaluable! Thanks a lot man.

Rick Imby

Titanium is far and away the finest material to use to build a frame. It will not rust and it has a much longer life expectancy than Steel which has a much longer life than Aluminum. Coolness factor is nice too.

HGR3inOK

FWIW, when faced with this decision in 2015, I bought a white H6L-X with the SON dynamo hub and a black Mini-O bag. I already had a Brooks B17 saddle. I added Ergon cork grips and a Mirrycle MTB mirror.


-HANK RYAN-
Norman, Oklahoma USA

reppans

I have an 2016 M6R with -12% gearing and I am torn with dropping it again to a 39T as I live in a hilly area and have restarted some light touring. I don't like the looks of the P bars either but it's hard to knock them as there's plenty times I want a lower set of bars to get out of headwinds. Ergon GP2s on my M bars made a big difference in my comfort.

There seems to be two extremes along the weight continuum - those that strip B down to barebones and Ti to keep the B light enough to comfortably hand carry, and someone like me who fills every nook and cranny on the bike to be prepared for anything and relies on a good rolling system, or unusual shoulder portage methods for distance carrying. My B should be in the 31-32lbs range with full main/seat tubes, and some water, helmet, lights, and minimalist lock strapped on (nothing impacts folded size). I need the rack since I roll my B frequently, for excess capacity while touring (I ultra-light out of just the T-bag), and impromptu utility shopping. Just installed the X-Roller yesterday for better rolling while folded.

My other must haves are the Alphabet Cottage half toe clips, vintage hairnet style SPIN helmet (trade protection for folding), Brompton tool kit for the main tube, Cateye 1AA taillight, Take-a-Look mirror, Twofish Lockblock flashlight mount for a headlight, and the Brompton stealth cover with saddle bag mount (holds my water bladder). I also just swapped a bike computer from my other bike - one of the big reasons is to measure distance between turns following route sheets, directions, etc. while touring.

Anyways, just my $0.02.

badmother

I am in a hurry so i`ll comment on this one only. Some time back I decided not to "bling out" my B for the same reason you mention. I have changed several of the hidden bolts on my B with Titanium to save weight but you would not know unless you take a wery close look. I have also decided that plastic/nylon is lighter than Ti for the same reason. I use light detatchable pedals instead of the folding ones. Take them with you when you lock the bike and it is more difficult for somebody to steal the bike and hop on and ride. For weight reasons I have decided on rechargable light )powerbanks can charge both light and cellphone) instead of dynamo.

berlinonaut

Ok, in this case the lowered 6-speed is probably the gearing of choice. Regarding the stem: At your size you can probably use any of the models though the H would probably be too high.
2017 model: At the P you are right - it is mainly the shifters that changed here. With the M and the H models the stems and the bars have changed also with the stems becoming higher and the bars becoming lower at about 2,8 cm each (overall height is the same as before). This means that the bars got stiffer (welcome). Furthermore the grips became exchangable and wider (bars have the same width as before overall). With the new shifters you can now more easily mount a standard bell (I'd suggest a Spurcycle) - very welcome. The new shifters are bolted onto the break levers but it is not one piece, so exchanging them if necessary shouldn't be a big deal and Brompton is famous for providing even the tiniest bits as a seperate spare part. So no need to get anxious here. Regarding the price: If you think about titanium the 2017 model should not make you sweat pricewise. ;-)

With what you plan to do with your Brommi touringwise the rack-option needs thinking: Depending from how much stuff you carry you might think about a solution like the pathless-pedaled-guys did with their Brommis - then the rack would make perfect sense. It adds a bit of protection and comfort as well when using public transport. Mount those eazy-wheels also then.
If you need less luggage a carradice camper might do instead or -if you are a minimalist- just the T-Bag on the front. You should have in mind that - according to Brompton - with P-Bars officially you must not use the overfilling capacity of the T-Bag to it's full extend as it then may interfere with the steering.
However - with a six-speed with Marathon, rack and lights the titanium-option is mainly a bit snobbish ;-) as the weight-saving looses it's relevance then. The more as ~90g of the weight saving of the titanium model just results from not delivering a pump - which you'll need anyway when touring.
To give you an idea: I own three Brommis, all with (heavy) leather saddles and some individualisation to fit my needs on them (but no expensive weight wheenie tuning or bling-bling) :

- a H2Lx (titanium, no rack, no lights, Kojaks, long aluminium Post, converted to S-handle-bars) at ~10,5 kg
- a S6LDx (titanium, no rack, Shimano-dynamo, telescopic post, Brompton tyres) at ~11,9 kg
- a M6RD (steel, Rack, SON, Edellux, telescopic post, Schwalbe Marathon green) at 13,9 kg.

The last one used to have an S/A 8-speed fitted which brought in 1kg of weight additionally - a real pain to carry. All three are lovely bikes to ride, each with a different character. I barely ride my other bikes, I ride each day for daily transport and of the Brommis the 2-speed is the one that get's used the most because of weight, speedyness and fun-factor. I never rode a P-model myself because of too much uglyness ;-), so no opinion regarding this. If you are a real pragmatic guy it may be acceptable.

From my experience of those three tyres the Kojaks roll by far best, then the Brompton tyres and the Marathon green is by far the worst. As the Brompton tyres are expensive (at ~32€ each) and you get the Marathons far cheaper (~13€ each) aftermarket I'd go with the Bromtons as a factory fit (instead of paying an upgrade price for getting a cheaper tyre) or with the folding Kojak, as the factory upgrade price is a steep 36€ but aftermarket that is the price of one single tyre (folding version). And the Kojak folds (the only commonly available Brompton tyre that does), so it might be an idea to get the Brommi with Kojaks, exchange them with different tyres directly and take one of the Kojaks as a spare tyre with you when you are touring (as 349 tyres are not commonly available in bikeshops you'll be doomed if something happens to your tyre. The folding Kojak is light and small, therefor a perfect rescue tyre).
Regarding puncture-resistance I've had some (not too many) with the Kojaks but repairing a puncture is a 10 minute-job with the Kojaks - really easy to get them on and off. With the Brompton tyres you can have bad luck trough broken glass, other than that I had no problems over the years. After a couple of years the Brompton tyres however tend to disintegrate themselves bit by bit and need replacement while at about the same time the number punctures seems to rise subjectively (Brompton green, the last one before the actual version of the tyre). Mounting them is fairly ok. I had no punctures with the Marathon yet but I did not do many miles on them as well yet. Mounting them is really a pain in the ass (and even worse with the +version). It is also worth replacing the factory fitted Kenda-tubes with Schwalbe SV4 or AV4 - from my experience they are more robust and hold the pressure longer as well.

So overall titanium is desirable and in a couple of years you'll probably be thankful if you went for it today. For your current plans it does however not make too much sense (respectively it is not really worth the price, judging rationally), the more if you do not care about the weight. If you do not plan to fly with your Brommi you'd be well served with a steel model. If you stick with the P-Model and are ok with the old-school shifters you do not need the 2017 version. If you go for a different model I'd personally go for 2017 (despite you like the classic look of the old M-model).

Regarding the bike-computer I use it mainly to monitor my cadence and trying to keep it at a healthy level and rising it slowly. Nice gadget for me, but maybe not for everyone. Oh, and another thing: Get a decent high-pressure pump like the SKS Rennkompressor if you do not already own one. High tyre pressure (6-8 Bars, depending from the tyre) makes a hell of a difference on a Brompton - only then you'll notice the really big differences in rolling resistance.

12boy

I like S bars with bar ends and ergo grips. I use a large saddle bag off my saddle most of the time because the large front bags are noticeably slower in a headwind, but I have a large one for shopping trips. I like narrow leather seats and so have ditched the stock saddle. I use 2 way pedals, flat on one side and SPD on the other. I also have 2 rear wheels, a one speed and a regular 3 speed. If you got a 2 speed rear you would have 2 bromptons, the 6 speed for longer, hillier trips and the light 2 speed for zipping around on flatter ground. I do not have the TI bits, but if the roads are salted in winter in Berlin they might be good in terms of not rusting.

fietsbob

I recently got the New SON XS Brompton Wheel . its using Straight pull 14-15-14 spokes and offered anodized (+ colors)

Offered in B company build list is the prior Polished , conventionally spoked XS.

For My height, M is right*, but H bar mast can offer the opportunity to use straight bars [Same center clamp height as S mast]
or some with a mid rise, and still not have bars in the dirt when folded.. down..

[Have* M3L . ergon GR 3, & Schlumpf mountain drive (for 17~ 77" gear range) B&M eyc T + Toplight Line Taillight]





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berlinonaut

With the 2017 models the H-stem is higher than the S-stem (roughly 3 cm), hence offering a bit more height than the S when using S-bars on it (even w/o riser). Good conversion for taller riders that would like an S but dislice being forced into a "racing-position" on the bike.

fietsbob

Lock? Abus bordo pouch fits in the gap behind the main & rear section .

KS Dura 2 pads slip in The B's ( Tektro sourced ) brakes ..

touring? consider: https://www.radicaldesign.com/cyclone-iv-chubby.html




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v1nce

Hi Fietsbob, was wondering about your thoughts on the New vs the Old SON. In terms of longer tours, I imagine the straight pull spokes would be very hard to get, while most good bike shops could always shorten a conventional spoke right? On the other hand, straight spokes should suffer less breakage in theory? As for the old and the new hub dynamo, Old one is very proven, is new one lighter? Or are there other differences? How much are you liking the Schlumpf? Thanks.

v1nce

Do you have a website or link to pics of your brompton please?

reppans

https://www.bikeforums.net/touring/69...-rigs-154.html

I posted links to the individual photos further down in the thread.

fietsbob

Live in a hilly town 2.5 reduction gear runs through the 3 BSR speeds twice.

double shift between 4th & 3rd low in high range , to high in low range..

double planetary gears can be shifted at any speed so 4th down to 3rd can happen when bogged down in a climb.


gap is about 40% so a bit larger than the 33% of the hub , up from it's 1st.


Other option: Speed drive ; 1.6x overdrive 34t acts like a 54t in high range..






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jur

Ti Brommie definitely, 2sp, no rack. I bought a after market 5sp wheel and will use that in case of touring.

v1nce

Just to follow up, I ordered the fully tricked out Racing green, Ti, 6 speed, P-bar, rack, T-bag, Son set (price was not cheaper to buy separate, especially with my shop discount).. All told more than 2.7k in euros... nuts. But, the way I look at, with the discount I get, either I enjoy it for many years to come and do a 4 to 10 week tour of US with it within a year and all that stuff will be totally worth it.. or if I do not use it as much as hoped I can sell it for probably the same I paid or close to it in one years time.

badmother

Ahh. Congrats! Keep us updated on how you use it.

There is a link to a R20 restauration in your posts that is not working. Can it be fixed?

v1nce

Thx! Also, fixed the link, it had been bothering me for,.. oh about 9 years hahaha!

keyven

1. S2E-X and M3E here. The S2E-X is about 8kg so it's my go-to bike for running around town and multi-modal. The M3E - probably soon to be M6E - is my goto for longer rides and maybe touring. The Ti is great if you do intend to fold and carry a fair bit. Not so much value if it's to throw into the car or plain riding.

2. Running a 39T (-22%) on my 2-speed and 53T (+7%) on my M3E. For the 2-spd due to handling hills with ease and just relaxed riding. The M3E is a little more of a long range bike, but obviously an extra gear isn't going to help as much as 4 more.

3. Never tried the 2017.

4. Never tried the P. Only the H, M and S. Still love the H for sheer comfort, but all are fun in their own ways.

5. My one advice I'd give most people is - upgrade the hinge clamp to uneven ones (unless the 2017 has them). It allows you to not have to fiddle (or even look closely at) the clamps when you're folding/unfolding. It might save a few seconds, but they REALLY add up. And not having to bend down to "minor adjust" the clamps because they are slightly out of alignment is... something you'd only marvel at once you experience the difference.

Rick Imby

New bikes are so much fun. Fully loaded bikes are even more fun. Which options did you not get that you could have to make it more expensive?---

berlinonaut

Out of curiosity: Which model year is it and what did you change to get it down to 8kg? An actual stock S2Ex is 9kg with Kojaks weights 9.6 kg.
Regarding the gearing: How fast do you ride with it? With 39t the highest gear is just 4,22m development / 52.9 gear inches - pretty short. I'm thinking about switching from 54t to 60t on mine...

fietsbob

BTW, new is an additional New Schmidt XS , semi radial.

SON XS


for the guy worried about field replacing a spoke , the slight Kink should resist the spoke winding up and rotating
as the nip is turned.

But you will have to plan ahead and bring that extra spoke with you..



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