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How to make my Moulton TSR 10 faster?

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How to make my Moulton TSR 10 faster?

Old 11-17-16, 08:57 PM
  #1  
pinholecam
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How to make my Moulton TSR 10 faster?

I chanced on a Moulton TSR 10 for a really good price which I could not pass up.
So here I am, with yet another bike, even though I don't need one.


Bike is as good as brand new (2 rides only by original owner).
So to be clear, there is no technical fault with the bike.
No brake rub, gunked up drive train, etc.


I've changed the bike to a touring bar (came with flat bar).

Drive train is a 55T chainring and a 11-25T cassette on decent, mid end wheels (wheelsport sunny).
Tiagra 10sp shifters and RD.


After 4 rides with this bike varying between 30km to 60km, I am having very mixed feelings about it.
It can give the impression of speed on flats, but it is certainly poor on any type of slope.
In fact, my average time on any of the rides are also the slowest of the small bikes I have. (even on the flats)


So does a Moulton TSR give up speed for the cushy ride?
Or is there something I can do about it?
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Old 11-17-16, 09:07 PM
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Congrats on your new find. Getting a Moulton TSR with only a couple rides is something I'll wager a lot of us would like to have.

I've ridden the TSR, and I can't say that I ever thought it was a high-performance bike. Does it lose efficiency because of the suspension? Hard to say...maybe a little, but one doesn't buy it for speed, one buys it for elegant engineering and that hard-to-describe ride quality, which can be addictive.

Wanna go faster? First thing I'd replace is the Wheelsport Sunny wheelset. For not much more money, the Wheelsport Smart 1.0 sports a higher-profile rim which in theory is more aerodynamic. Of course, you could go with any 406 wheelset you want, and there are others...just mentioned the Smart for starters.
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Old 11-17-16, 09:08 PM
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Overall weight?

Tyres?

Change to supple 28mm tyres. Shed all possible weight.
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Old 11-17-16, 09:32 PM
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Originally Posted by bargainguy View Post
Congrats on your new find. Getting a Moulton TSR with only a couple rides is something I'll wager a lot of us would like to have.

I've ridden the TSR, and I can't say that I ever thought it was a high-performance bike. Does it lose efficiency because of the suspension? Hard to say...maybe a little, but one doesn't buy it for speed, one buys it for elegant engineering and that hard-to-describe ride quality, which can be addictive.

Wanna go faster? First thing I'd replace is the Wheelsport Sunny wheelset. For not much more money, the Wheelsport Smart 1.0 sports a higher-profile rim which in theory is more aerodynamic. Of course, you could go with any 406 wheelset you want, and there are others...just mentioned the Smart for starters.

I understand the ride feel and the looks part of it.
Which is why the mixed feeling with the bike.
I do like the above mentioned aspects.

But with it riding slower than my $400 Raleigh mini velo and 18" Tyrell IVE with rear racks.
I find that kinda hard to accept.

I'm not looking at the bike being a speed demon.
I just want it to match the speed of my other 2 small bikes.

The suspension is a culprit for sure.
I feel that I immediately slow down on the climbs.
I've tightened it up a bit, and may adjust that a bit more again after a few rides.



Originally Posted by jur View Post
Overall weight?

Tyres?

Change to supple 28mm tyres. Shed all possible weight.
Weight is close to the stock bike (except for the touring bars, though I felt the same with the flat bars)
Brooks B17 saddle though...

Tires are Continental Contact 1.25" tires.
I'm not familiar with them, though I've been told by a friend that these are high end tires.

Weight wise, I don't think its the issue.
My IVE is heavier with the rear rack, but its faster.
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Old 11-18-16, 12:27 AM
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Last weekend I finished a 200km mixed terrain ride with some 3,200m of climbing. I rode my 20-sp Moulton, my mate rode a Focus cyclocross. I had 40mm Maxxis DTH folding tyres, he had gumwall Schwalbe Racing Ralphs.

There were 2 big differences in these 2 bikes: 1) the Moulton with all the emergency stuff I carried was much heavier (although I am lighter than him by similar or bigger amount) and 2) his cyclocross Focus rolled much faster on all terrains, rough to smooth dirt as well as sealed roads. So I had to move a much bigger percentage weight over my body weight up all those slopes, plus I had to pedal harder and more.

So much for the Moulton with suspension. I wonder if the tyres were solely to blame. We both have quality wheels; me with American Classic hubs and CR18 rims, while he has DT Swiss wheels.

Anyway, I have always felt my Moulton is sort of slow, hard to pedal. Not sure what exactly it is, as I always am busy checking to see that the drivetrain isn't draggy. I might try and slap on some Kojaks to see if the picture changes a lot.

Last edited by jur; 11-18-16 at 12:34 AM.
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Old 11-18-16, 01:36 AM
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My Pashley Moulton TSR 9, with 18 speed hollow-tech upgrade was a lovely bike. It wasn't fast even with Kojaks but was a nice touring ride.

"I have always felt my Moulton is sort of slow, hard to pedal."

Same here. Eventually I figured out that it didn't do anything my alloy Dahons couldn't do better, although it looked like a million dollars. I sold it to a guy on Ebay, who kept it for a year, found the same, and flipped it for what he paid.

Given it's a 'rigid' frame with decent drive-train, I figured that the suspension absorbed the forward energy over micro-bumps instead of using it to push the rider over them. That translated into needing to put more energy in on the same road for the same speed. (This of course, could be nonsense.)

Lovely looking bike, but it came with 'buts'. Figured 1200 was to much to have tied up in a bike that wasn't so special. They're now 1400 over here, which is really way too much money.

20th century bike in the 21st century, and the new stuff is often better than the old. There's a lot more choice now, and we can go faster/further for less.

Last edited by snafu22; 11-18-16 at 01:53 AM.
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Old 11-18-16, 01:42 AM
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Old 11-18-16, 01:51 AM
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I must thank everyone here again for chipping in the info and personal experiences.

At this point, I don't really want to add more money to the bike with a drive train upgrade if the bottom line is that it will be a mark slower than what I have.
I mean... Tiagra, 55T, 11-25T should be a decently fast performer already.


As for the ride quality, it does seem that running 1.5" tires at 55-65psi, already works well for me on the IVE.


I got the bike real cheap, so I can actually keep it.
But all these doubts vs the nice look of the bike is messing with my head
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Old 11-18-16, 03:06 AM
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You can shift the stem two or three inches lower to get more aerodynamic position.
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Old 11-18-16, 08:01 AM
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I had a TSR 21 and can report the same feeling of underwhelm - it 'felt' fast on the flat, but ultimately I felt tireder after a ride than seemed correct (this doing a 2 way 10 mile commute - mostly on 'flat' canal paths).

It feels stiff but - and the big but - is that the stiffness seems overridden by the suspension.
I suspect one could dial out some of the cushy-ness with less travel on the front and/or stiffer elastomers but I'm not sure how much it would help.

To me Moultons are an aquired taste - I tried one and though I loved the look of it, the ride just didn't live up to the story as told by fans. I sold mine after a catastrophic front fork failure that broke a rib, and sent me over the bars and inches from a canal. At least it wasn't on a busy road; Moulton fixed the fork gratis, but I wasn't really into it after that so after about 18months of ownership it went to another owner.

At least they hold their value
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Old 11-18-16, 08:15 AM
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I have an APB R18 which should be very similar to the TSR, and my impression of the bike mirrors everything that's been said here. I believe there's a limit as to what the bike is is capable of. If you don't ride faster than 20-25 km/h (less better), it is an ok bike. Love the look of it, hence I'm still holding on to it, but I rarely ride it.
My 9 speed Birdy is much quicker and less effort to ride. I'm sure the weight is the main problem.

I have swapped out the original wheels (36 spokes!!) for a set of Velocity wheels, saving 700g in the process, and it is running full Ultegra, so definitely nothing wrong with the drivetrain. BUT, somehow it still doesn't feel right. The bike would be lucky to have done 500kms since out of the box. Maybe I'll just hang it up somewhere. Just kidding!
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Old 11-18-16, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by LittlePixel View Post
I suspect one could dial out some of the cushy-ness with less travel on the front and/or stiffer elastomers but I'm not sure how much it would help.
The Moulton that set the 51.3mph world speed record was an AM, which I'd guess had essentially the same suspension as the TSR, so it must be possible to set it up for fast times. Then again what's the point of paying all that money for a suspension system and then riding with it all but locked out. Sell it on to some old codger and get an Airnimal Joey, rock solid ride, not a thou of give.
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Old 11-18-16, 09:22 AM
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Wow enlightening info. I have only test ridden a Moulton and always wanted one but now I feel better knowing I can wait longer before owning one.
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Old 11-18-16, 03:18 PM
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Enlightening indeed.

Originally Posted by ttakata73 View Post
Wow enlightening info. I have only test ridden a Moulton and always wanted one but now I feel better knowing I can wait longer before owning one.
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Old 11-18-16, 03:34 PM
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Zzipper road fairing they made a special model that fits on the large front Rack .. aerodynamics will add a small % to the efficiency of moving thru the air.

https://www.zzipper.com/images/prod_df/Untitled-5.jpg [flipped picture]




DIY

Last edited by fietsbob; 11-18-16 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 11-18-16, 04:58 PM
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That zipper fairing is evocative of the streamlining used on racing motorcycles in the early/ mid 1950's, Moto Guzzi V8, Gilera 4, DKW triple, various NSU's. They were banned at the end of the 1957 season because of the danger posed by side winds, but I'm sure the wind tunnel work of Guzzi and NSU in particular was not lost on Dr Moulton.
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Old 11-18-16, 08:07 PM
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
Zzipper road fairing they made a special model that fits on the large front Rack .. aerodynamics will add a small % to the efficiency of moving thru the air.

https://www.zzipper.com/images/prod_df/Untitled-5.jpg [flipped picture]




DIY

Perhaps that's the reason why the speed record remains intact...... imagine riding with fairing, lol
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Old 11-18-16, 09:15 PM
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Originally Posted by desastar View Post
Perhaps that's the reason why the speed record remains intact...... imagine riding with fairing, lol
I had a recumbent with a big-ole fairing like that. They sure are cozy on cold days 😎
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Old 11-19-16, 04:08 AM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by desastar View Post
Perhaps that's the reason why the speed record remains intact...... imagine riding with fairing, lol
Seems like the record was taken with a fully enclosed streamliner:-

Liners 1,2,3
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Old 11-19-16, 10:38 AM
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Recommendation: (after rejecting aerodynamic advances) Get a faster rider to ride your Bike for you.
Peter Sagan perhaps?

It's the Motor.. you are not pushing your self hard enough, Speed is Work Not Parts.

Air resistance goes up 4X as speed doubles ..


Move to a High Altitude with lower air density .
[Merckx Hour record was set in Mexico City.. Elevation 2,250 m (7,380 ft) ]






Last edited by fietsbob; 11-20-16 at 11:44 AM.
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Old 11-19-16, 12:26 PM
  #21  
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The ones classed as fast are the AM models such as the speed etc with smaller wheels, lighter weight etc, i have 2 50 year old Moultons and one i am rebuilding is a Major the other an F Frame speed, i was amazed that the 4 speed Moulton that was heavier than my xootr on kojaks and 8 speeds and trounced the xootr on both accelleration and top speed, the TSR model are made by Pashley and more mass produced and built to a budget spec compared to the handbuilt ones for much more, alter the gearing and shed some weight off the bike before you write them off completely!
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Old 11-19-16, 01:52 PM
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what's the hurry any how ?
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Old 11-19-16, 04:21 PM
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Not long ago i was looking at a Moulton TSR frame, not because i wanted a Moulton per se or have a need to say y bike is handbuilt in the UK or that it has a storied 50 year history (that all means nothing to me), but rather because I was seeking a different 406er frame. When I found out the price of the frame alone, nearly $1,800, I said that I was out, and didn't understand the nerve charging that much given the options. Of course, cuz I was running counter to dogma, received wisdom and the hype, I was told that the TSR was hand-crafted and other boloney, and made to feel that it was just sour grapes on my part. Well, turns out i was right. A TSR, judging from the consensus here, just ain't fast, and it isn't even hand-crafter, but rather mass produced by someone else. Turns out it wasn't sour grapes, but rather a savy, sensible hunch. Turns out it wasn't I beating those empty drums. Yet another example of the herd mentality that afflicts this channel every so often.

Originally Posted by dezzie View Post
...the TSR model are made by Pashley and more mass produced and built to a budget spec...

Last edited by Abu Mahendra; 11-19-16 at 04:37 PM.
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Old 11-19-16, 04:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Abu Mahendra View Post
Not long ago i was looking at a Moulton TSR frame, not because i wanted a Moulton per se or have a need to say y bike is handbuilt in the UK or that it has a storied 50 year history (that all means nothing to me), but rather because I was seeking a different 406er frame. When I found out the price of the frame alone, nearly $1,800, I said that I was out, and didn't understand the nerve charging that much given the options. Of course, cuz I was running counter to dogma, received wisdom and the hype, I was told that the TSR was hand-crafted and other boloney, and made to feel that it was just Sour Grapes on my part. Well, turns out i was right. A TSR, judging from the consensus here, just ain't fast, and it isn't even hand-crafter, but rather mass produced by someone else. Vindication is mine once again.
You apparently don't how or where Pashley builds bicycles, and you showed up in this thread to talk smack about a bike you've never owned. Your trolling is tedious.
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Old 11-19-16, 06:18 PM
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Originally Posted by dezzie View Post
The ones classed as fast are the AM models such as the speed etc with smaller wheels, lighter weight etc, i have 2 50 year old Moultons and one i am rebuilding is a Major the other an F Frame speed, i was amazed that the 4 speed Moulton that was heavier than my xootr on kojaks and 8 speeds and trounced the xootr on both accelleration and top speed, the TSR model are made by Pashley and more mass produced and built to a budget spec compared to the handbuilt ones for much more, alter the gearing and shed some weight off the bike before you write them off completely!
For me it is not the top speed, but the effort involved to maintain the bike at speed. Certainly a lot harder the higher the speed. Im thinking it is now possibly the geometry of the frame, suit some but not others? There's one more thing I'll do and that is going brifters to replace the bar-end shifters, which is less enjoyable to shift, at least to me.
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