Giant Doofus

I've been thinking about a folder for a couple of years and think I'm finally ready to do it. I want a lightweight folder for multimodal commuting and air travel. I want it to fit easily in a suitcase with minimal disassembly. When the Bike Friday Pakit came out, I thought it might be the one, and after reading everything I can find about it and corresponding with someone on staff at BF, I'm pretty well settled on it. I'm looking at the 8-speed derailleur version.

First, to answer the "what about a Brompton?" question: On paper the Brompton would be great for me, but after borrowing one to ride for a few days, I discovered that the one-size-fits-all frame just doesn't fit me. I also like to do my own wrenching, so avoiding the IGH and proprietary parts of the Brompton is also important to me. (I have another IGH bike, so I have a good idea of what's involved in their maintenance.) Don't get me wrong. I think Bromptons are awesome bikes; they just aren't for me.

I have a couple of questions I'd like to hear you weigh in on. First, I'm interested in using the Rixen and Kaul Klickfix handlebar adapter and Vario rack on the bike, preferably on front, but connecting to the seatpost could also work. Has anyone used these products, especially with a BF? Any idea if they would work? Second, are there important questions I should be asking about this bike or components I should consider?

I'm very excited about this new venture!

Edit: Update in post #75. The bike has arrived!

sunburst

Can't answer your specific question, but I've got a very early BF NWT, which is not foldable, imo, but rides like a dream. I've been curious about Brompton for a while, especially after seeing so many in London last summer. I finally tried one out last week at my LBS while they pressed some cotters out of an old Peugeot crank of mine. The Brompton did not compare to the BF. Felt like a toy in comparison, maybe something to have in the truck of the car, but not for serious riding like my NWT.

I've been curious about the Pakit also, as a more foldable bike than mine, hopefully with similar ride characteristics, now that BF seems to have discontinued the Tikit.

rhenning

For questions like the kick stand working or not I would use BF 800 number and ask them. They generally will know if something works on one of their bikes. My BF is an early 2 tube frame Pocket Rocket. I couldn't find a serial number when I bought it preowned from BF. They told me it was frame #2. Roger

Giant Doofus

I'm not a kickstarter investor. The bike is now available for retail purchase. I have sent BF an inquiry about this as well. I was curious about the experience of Bike Forum members as well.

tdonline

Following this thread.

Doofus, I'm in the same boat as you with the Brompton--it's too long for me and the position it puts me in hurts my wrists. With adjustments, it works but the adjustments affect the fold and what's the point of a Brompton without the perfect fold? I also did not like the weight.

I have a Dahon D7 and I love it as my intro bike to folders. It's basically my day to day bike now...poor Trek roadie. But aside from folding the handlebar down when I bring it inside, I use my Dahon D7 as a mini-velo. It's too big and heavy for me to fold/carry/store regularly. I attached a basket on the rear rack so no going back now.

I'm now eyeing a lightweight and compact folder that I can truly treat as a...folder.

berlinonaut

I own a Tern Kanga-Rack that I got together with a Bickerton MK X a couple of years ago. While the Mk X is technically a variant of the Tern Link, the Tern Kanga-Rack is identical to the Rixen and Kaul Vario-Rack, including both using the same Klickfix mount. Technically it works flawlessly, however I use it only very rarely as for me it is far less useful than it looks. On the Bickerton it is used together with the Tern luggage truss for mounting, therefor it tends to wobble when having an amount of load. I've used it on the Brompton as well, using a Klickfix-adaptor on the Brompton luggage block. There the rack does not wobble (but sometimes the load does). I found it to be inferior to Bromptons luggage solutions - for my needs it seems not to have much use due to it's form factor. It works best for something like a daypack of about 20l that has only little weight in it. If you want to use it for something different, like i.e. a courier-bag-format I found it difficult and uncomfortable to mount this stable on the rack. However, this is just my personal opinion. I'd recommed trying it out as your mileage may vary and it is technically ok and may just not be the right thing for me (being maybe a bit biased in terms of comfort by the Brompton-bags). In case you may possibly be like me I'd be however be helpful if you could try before you buy or send back in case of dissatisfaction.
Mounting and unmounting the rack is super-easy, so it probably does not affect the fold. Using a rucksack with the rack I sometimes mount the rucksack backwards, so that I can carry it on my back, leaving the rack mounted to the rucksack, this way having both hands free. The factory fitted straps seem not to be very useful - but maybe I am just not understanding how to use them properly.

No experience with mounting it on a BF but generally Klickfix-stuff is pretty compatible with almost anything.

invisiblehand

It's so new. The Bike Friday folks have been experimenting with it for a while. I'd ask them what they recommend since it seems like there might be some interference with how the stem post and handlebar mounts on the bike when folded.

2_i 

I also started with BF NWT, and later got a Brompton. For me there is also no comparison between these bikes, but in the opposite direction. BF seems like a half-baked product, and Brompton appears optimized in every way I can think of. I got a trailer kit together with NWT and it is half-baked too.

Giant Doofus

Very helpful info. Thanks. I think this bike will work perfectly for my needs if I can just sort out a good way to carry my stuff!

sunburst

I can't argue about half-baked since mine is VERY early, serial number 136. I've only had it 2 years, and have not seriously checked out their new bikes, so I don't know how well they've evolved. Not even sure where a dealer is. My neighbors have two Tikits and are thrilled with them. They take them all over the place, including Europe.

The Brompton is the only other serious folder I've ridden and I can not imagine putting mucho miles on it. I bought a $20 Dahon at a swap meet and it had the same feeling. It was an early one and barely rideable. Very unstable. The Brompton was, of course, much better than the Dahon, but they both felt too upright and cramped.

So are you saying you like the ride (not the design) of the Brompton better than the NWT? If so, I should try one that fits me.

My NWT didn't feel right with the drop bars, but when I put on a straight bar everything aligned perfectly for me. And I mean like it was made to my measurements. Probably fits me better than anything I own (a dozen or so). And this fit plus the 20" wheels makes it a gas to ride. Plus it's lighter than anything in my collection of vintage bikes.

2_i 

My NWT was made to my measurements too. Its serial No is around 1800 so by then the model had to be well established. By now I have traveled with and ridden both NWT and Brompton extensively. Brompton is one size fits all.

I have flat bars on NWT. As far as riding is concerned, I don't like the squirrely steering in NWT - Brompton is much more stable with that respect. On steep hills riding NWT up or down can be scary, either because you think that you might flip back or the steering could get out of control. In other situations the riding of NWT can be fine. On Brompton, I think that the bouncing rhythm of suspension fits me well and this could be personal. NWT has far more gears but they don't work as they should in my memory. I utterly hate the folding and unfolding of NWT and even more so disassembling and reassembling in travel. There are other NWT quirks like stem not really fitting the headset, need to deflate front wheel to take it off, kickstand plate that detached itself from the frame due to rust that developed as a result of thoughtless design (if there was a design), lack of any foresight in deciding how a folded bike should be handled, etc. Brompton employs cheap materials at places, but then you realize that at those places there is actually no strong need to use better materials. It is a joy as far as folding, unfolding, packing and unpacking are concerned. My Dahons are clumsy (think water soaked wood) in riding, but they beat BF in folding.

linberl

The problem, imo, is Brompton is NOT one size fits all. I really wanted a brompton but just could not make it comfortable with the three options for bars. The dealer had lots of ideas how I could make it work, but that was hundreds of dollars of aftermarket stuff on top of the cost of the brompton. I wish they offered small, medium, and large frames because trying to shrink reach by playing with rotating the bars on a small bike just messes with the handling even more. The advantage to my Bike Friday is it fits me perfectly without spending extra or messing with the geometry. I mean, really, nothing is every REALLY one size fits all. It's just compromises you can tolerate or not. But that fold.....brilliant.

berlinonaut

While the Brompton's main frame is one size fits all there are four (not three) different bars (S,M,H,P), all with different heights and three different seatposts available from the factory.



With these combinations riders between maybe 1,60m and 2,00m height find a proper solution for themselves. At least those that I know of.
Regarding reach there is the Brompton Saddle Pin Adaptor, that was developed for shrinking reach. Cheap and pragmatic, mounting it takes less than five minutes. Exists since the late eighties or early nineties, is still available but not that common, so maybe your dealer did not know about it (shame on him).



Apart from that you can adjust the angle of the bars, but that will possible affect folded width a bit. You can get out of this trap by using a quick-release lever for bar-adjustment, making it possible to achieve the smallest possible fold independent from the angle while riding. And as all bars use different stems with a different height AND a different angle it is an easy job to i.e. use an S-bar on a M-stem, a P-stem or a H-stem, all offering lower reach in comparison to the M-stem. Or you can use a third-party bar and/or a riser like the "aber-hallo". With the new (higher) stems for M and H in 2017 there are even more possible combinations now. All of this is not very expensive and definitively not several 100 Dollars if you choose the right stem from the beginning (as stems are expensive while bars are not). Many people have done this and I know a bunch of smaller riders being happy with a Brompton. For the swapping of bars and stem-combinations your dealer would have to be a bit knowledgable to judge on what is possible, what fits you best and to adjust the cable-lenght.
If you want to throw in some money you could look at the netherlands and approch Vincent van Eerd: https://www.eerdermetaal.nl/telescopische_stuurpen.html



Regarding BF NWT vs. Brompton: No doubt the Brompton beats the BF by miles when it comes to folding. Regarding riding I think the BF rides far smoother and more grown up.

linberl

Yes, it is entirely possible my dealer did not know all the ins and outs. He had just started carrying brompton a month or so before I checked them out. However, I am 5'4" with what my friends affectionately refer to as "t-rex arms". Not quite that bad, actually, but my reach is definite not equivalent to my inseam. While I do envy the excellent fold, I have found I don't fold my bike as often as I thought I might (maybe only once a month) so for me the BF with variable sizing and comfortable ride has worked out well.
Seems to be for the price that Brompton could make more than one size, though. Can't imagine it would be that hard to make that curving tube in a couple of different lengths. British traditional and all I get, but they almost seem to drag their feet on any improvements.
But that fold.......yes. I'll keep your tips in mind if I come across a nice used one I can tweak!

berlinonaut

In that case I think the seatpost-adaptor on an S-Model could do the job. Or the seatpost-adaptor in conjunction with a s-bar on a M or P stem (as the standard M-model would possibly too high for your size ergonomically).

Regarding different sizing of the B's frame: This would put massive variability into the product. Today you have 4 stems, 12 colors for the mainframe, the same for fork and stem, 4 possible gearings (each with three different chainwheels to choose from), 3 possibilities regarding racks and blades (ignoring color options) and four possible combinations for lights and three options for tires. So roughly 250.000 possible combinations for a Brompton to be built and to choose from, ignoring accessoires and ignoring special editions. If you add let's say only 3 sizes for the frame you have 750.000 possible combinations. That's probably one reason why they don't do it: Even today it is difficult for dealers to find the right bikes to put in the showroom. Having different sizes makes it even more difficult to sell the bikes you have and for Brompton to preproduce those models. Plus in reality having a one size frame has not really been a problem as sizing can be adjusted via stems, bars and seatposts.
Btw.: You could try to get hold of an old Brompton before 2004 - their mainframe is 3cm shorter.

Rick Imby

Awesome to see two totally opposite opinions on BF vs Brompton.. I have a couple of Dahons---one barely ridden--one in the middle of a major upgrade---light wheels tires---a Swift that I love the position and feel---I've been riding with studded tires this winter. I've come really close to pulling the trigger on a couple of BF's on Ebay and Craigslist.--

Are you comparing Dahons that are over $1k to your BF and Brompton? Often people ride a Boardwalk and then a Brompton and like the Bromie...

2_i 

This is the lore and on the basis of such a claim I went first for NWT. However, in practice I found no riding advantage in NWT. Work takes me often to Seattle where I ride Burke-Gilman trail on a folder taken along. Repeatedly when riding a loaded Brompton I begin to pass slower road bikes with no load, unintentionally triggering them to race against me. I do no recall this ever happening to me on NWT.

My Dahons are $100 models produced for internal markets in China in Russia, so the comparison is totally unfair. However, even though cheap, these represent wholly integrated designs close to Boardwalk. In my NWT the gearing falters because, I suspect, nobody ever thought through how to make the drivetrain work properly with the changing sizes when fitting different riders.

As a disclaimer, I do not part with my NWT. It is good to have a bike that packs differently for travel. I use it as a backup bike and visitors use it too.

feijai

I have found these to be poor options. First off, Brompton has four handlebar choices, none of which has anything other than a flat profile. Drop bars on a Brompton, or even a mild sweep, are, let's say, challenging to hack together. You can tilt them very slightly, not enough I think to make much difference in reach. Your best bet for reach is probably the S handlebar, which imparts a strange (and I think non-sporty) downward angle for most people.

The problem with an extreme setback post is exactly that: setback. Your legs are now at an atypical angle. And mind you, the Brompton's seatpost is *already* set back far enough to almost make it a wheelie bike *without* the post modification. I've long been surprised that this is even offered as an option.

I think that the Brompton has serious reach problems compared to other folding bikes, and certainly compared to the options available on BF models. The reach of a standard Brompton is almost exactly that of a *size small* Tikit, and the Tikit comes in two larger frame sizes than that, not to mention that it comes with standard bar and stem options.

If you need a tight fold, these workarounds will make the Brompton a plausible choice for someone with large (or frankly even moderate) reach. But the Brompton is fundamentally a bike for small people, and these workarounds are a far cry from what BF provides. That's the tradeoff.

berlinonaut

If you want a dropbar the Brompton is not for you. It's that simple. You would not complain that a Ferrari is really bad for fitting off-road-tires, would you?

You obviously completely misunterstood the purpose of the adaptor. It is for SHORTENING reach and therefor mounted forwards. You MUST NOT mount it pointing backwards as this may damage your frame due to the additional lever applied. This is btw. explicitely pointed out in the manual.
I've btw. never made a wheelie by accident with my Brompton and never heard of a person that did. Maybe you should think about your style of riding...

In terms of contact points (including reach) a Brompton is almost identical to a normal bike - different to most Folders including Dahon. They built half a million of them, so it probably is not totally wrong. It is designed as a city folder and commuter bike - if you want something more special you should buy something more special. If the Brompton was built like a Tikit it would probably be aTikit and not a Brompton... BF btw. kind of stopped producing the Tikit by raising it's price to the sky wheras Brompton is building 50.000 a year and just moved to a new factory with the goal of producing 100.000 in the early 2020ies. That probably says something.

I am 1,87m and ride my Brompton happily. And I know a lot of happy fellow Brompton riders that at or above my size, up to more than 2m tall.

feijai

That's not the point of my posting. The point was: Bromptons have a very specific, important, and useful niche. But outside of that niche they have a huge number of disadvantages. Lots of Brompton boosters here on BikeForums tend to suggest hacks to downplay problems with the bike, thus trying to argue that the things it does poorly aren't really that bad, rather than doing what they *should* be doing, which is promoting the things it does well. I think we should be honest about the failings of our bikes.

That's not the problem with wheelie bikes. Wheelies are awesome. The problem is general riding stability.


Dude. I've compared Tikits (all three sizes), Dahons (Helix, P8, and D3), and several Bromptons. With a tape measure. When I've done so, the Brompton has *definitely* been a shorter reach than the others. [Mind you this was a couple of years ago -- I know the frame has undergone changes which may have improved things, who knows]

You're really using numbers to suggest quality? Seriously?

There are lots of anecdotes. I have a friend who's 6'3" and rides a Brompton. That doesn't mean it's got as good a reach as (say) a Tikit or NWT. It just doesn't. [I have no info on the Pakit reach].

Stress the advantages of the bike. There are many! Downplaying its disadvantages just looks like fanboyism.

berlinonaut

Why should I? I own one, it serves me well. In fact it has almost canibalized all my other bikes. I have the choice each day and almost every day I end up riding the Brompton and let the others collect dust, some of them for years. It has changed my way of travelling that far that I've sold my car. YMMV. Some people measure. Other people ride.

linberl

From what I can see, the seatpost adapter moves the seat way forward or back, but then this throws the position of the knee off kilter in relationship to the pedal. I know this, because I had a professional bike fit to resolve an issue with my knee. Just moving the seat forward with no relationship to the cranks can really cause problems; it's not a great way to fix reach issues as it can just create all kinds of other problems. The entire body alignment would change relative to the cranks and knee/thigh/hip angles would be less than optimum and maybe ineffective or painful. So while I was excited to first read what you posted about the adapter, now I don't think it would work very well for me. And, of course, there is also my mindset that for 2 grand, I shouldn't have to buy "adapters" to fit to a bike

Giant Doofus

OP here. Well, shoot, I was hoping to avoid a debate about Bromptons. Should have known better.

Does anyone care to weigh in on the Pakit itself? Specifically, I'm thinking about (1) ways to carry my stuff and (2) other general observations about the bike. Anything that jumps out about it that a first-time folder owner might not think of?

linberl

OP, sorry about the thread derail. There are a couple people with PakIts on Bike Friday's Community facebook page - you might also consider asking there.

Abu Mahendra

My views on Brompton and Bike Friday are well know here so I will refrain from comment. Instead I will comment on the various Klickfix mounts and set-ups I've used. First some images...

Handlebar mount


Handlebar mount with bag


Tern Luggage Truss, Kangga Rack & Drybag on tour


Zero wobble even on rough roads. Nil. Taut and tight.

With Ortlieb bag

Zero wobble even on rough roads. Nil. Taut and tight.

Tern Kangga Rack on seatpost via caddy


Klickfix stuff ain't cheap, but it is good. I do have to report one wobble, though. It is on a Brooks basket which apparently is not finished to Klickfix tolerances so it does wobble a bit.